Allah and our God the same God?

[Mystic_Warrior]

I asked a similar question once of a Bobover Chasid (Orthodox Jew). He told me that Allah is the same God as Hashem (the Jewish God), but not the same as the Christian deity (probably due to the trinitarian nature of the Christian deity.)

Which leads me to believe that Judaism and Islam are far more closely aligned than Christianity is to either one of them. Jesus Christ is the difference. Judaism and Islam don’t have any concept of God revealing Himself in a human form. The more I look at it, Judaism is very far from Christianity and vice/versa. I hold much respect for Judaism. I can’t say the same for Islam.

Peace…

MW

 

[benedicter]

I asked a similar question once of a Bobover Chasid (Orthodox Jew). He told me that Allah is the same God as Hashem (the Jewish God), but not the same as the Christian deity (probably due to the trinitarian nature of the Christian deity.)

Wonderful to have your (name removed by moderator)ut. The Trinity is a hard concept, many Catholics would have trouble explaining it. The Trinity is One God, that is the bottom line. There is the Marcion heresy which tried to say to Christians that the God of the Hebrew Scriptures was not the God of the Christian scriptures.

I like St Bernard of Clarivaux’s explanation of the Trinity - The Lover, the Beloved and the Love Between them. They are One. The concept is relational.

There is good information on this site for understanding the Trinity.

I guess at the end of the day it is about revelation. Though I think it is important for Christians to hold three conceptions related to Judaism.

1. Jesus was a 1st Century Jew.
2. Judaism is the root of Christianity.
3. Jews are a Covenant people and God does not revoke His Covenants

I was reading Judaism by Rabbi Jacob Neusner last night. He is very readable. I beleive there is a book with a dialogue between him and Pope Benedict, I shall read that too.

 

[benedicter]

Which leads me to believe that Judaism and Islam are far more closely aligned than Christianity is to either one of them. Jesus Christ is the difference. Judaism and Islam don’t have any concept of God revealing Himself in a human form. The more I look at it, Judaism is very far from Christianity and vice/versa. I hold much respect for Judaism. I can’t say the same for Islam.

Peace…

MW

Judaism is a Covenant with God. Christianity (in Catholic opinion, not Jewish) the fulfillment of the Covenants in the New Covenant of Jesus. Judaiism remains a Covenant religion, God never revokes His promises. Covenant is a significant framework of understanding, Islam does not claim a Covnenant relationship. It says Mohammed is the ‘Seal of the Prophets’ that is the last revelation. Christians have that belief i.e. Jesus is the final revelation. I cannot state exactly the Judaic position but I presume the hold the Torah as definitive.

Judaism does have the concept of God revealing himself in human form - God SPOKE to Abraham. This is significant. God SPOKE to Moses. God never spoke or appeared to Mohommed Allah delivered verses over many years to Mohammed through Gibril, whom Muslims associate with the Angel Gabriel.

 

[benedicter]

possesses

a correct conception of God. I’m saying that we both worship the same person even if one of us thinks that person is a little different.

Also, you’re setting me up for a strawman here. I didn’t say that “all religions, to a greater or lesser extent, worship the one true God.” I’m only speaking about Islam. Discussing other religions in general is another thread entirely.

The fact of the matter is that the grammar of this section of the Catechism is very clear. You just have to understand the distinction between definite and indefinite articles, and I think it’s only reasonable to assume that the compilers of the Catechism did.

As I said the writers of the commentary are significant (including Cardinal Pell) in that they conclude ‘that the statements from the Church are inconclusive.’

You are persisitently applying ‘one interpretation’ to it. I think you are entitled to hold your opinion - the Church statements aren’t against your opinion that they are the same. The point is there is not enough in them to accuse someone else of infidelity if they have another opinion.

I am not trying to change your mind on your opinion about whether they are the same or not, I am trying to point out that you hold it as an opinion, still within the framework of the Church’s teaching but not opposed to another opinion.

I have another opinion about whether they are the same God but I still support your right to hold yours.

 

[ricmat]

Well, this thread is way over my head. But it seems to me that:

The Christian and Muslim definitions of The One God are quite different. The Trinity being one huge example. **We can’t both be right. One of us is wrong. **

If someone “worships” a god who is fundamentally different than the way God actually is, then is that really worship of God? Isn’t it false worship of…something else?

And isn’t it a violation of the second commandment as well - by attributing to God’s name something which is not actually true?

Isn’t that what revelation is all about? Teaching us about the real God so that we can worship him, and not something else?

As a Catholic, it seems to me that the Muslims are of course wrong, and through lack of knowing the truth actually worship something which is not actually God - no matter what name they use.

 

[Nickkname]

Jews and Muslims and Christians acknowledge that God is one in Nature. Only Christians, though, believe he is thrice in Reality, i.e., that he has three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I’d explain more but I lack the philosophical knowledge to do so. I do, however, point you to this article: newadvent.org/cathen/11726a.htm

 

[benedicter]

Well, this thread is way over my head. But it seems to me that:

The Christian and Muslim definitions of The One God are quite different. The Trinity being one huge example. **We can’t both be right. One of us is wrong. **

If someone “worships” a god who is fundamentally different than the way God actually is, then is that really worship of God? Isn’t it false worship of…something else?

And isn’t it a violation of the second commandment as well - by attributing to God’s name something which is not actually true?

Isn’t that what revelation is all about? Teaching us about the real God so that we can worship him, and not something else?

As a Catholic, it seems to me that the Muslims are of course wrong, and through lack of knowing the truth actually worship something which is not actually God - no matter what name they use.

I think from where I’m sitting what you say is a sensible view in that there is a danger in being too open to the theology of another religion. It can weaken the need to present the Gospel. There can also be a temptation to inadvertently talk about ‘God’ in one way and ‘Jesus’ in another.

What I do is always hold Jesus before me as God. In his humanity I see him as a Jew. He is the way to the Father. That is the Christian revelation. If I get to heaven I would rather say perhaps Lord I was too literal in understanding your Word but I didn’t trust myself to see things clearly from your perspective. In other words I would rather be accused of being ‘too narrow’ ‘too gullible’ than ‘unfaithful’.

Re Christianity and Judaism - I love the images in the Hebrew scriptures of the older brother and the younger brother. There are many. This is for Christians a good way of seeing the Christian/Judiac relationship.

 

[benedicter]

Jews and Muslims and Christians acknowledge that God is one in Nature. Only Christians, though, believe he is thrice in Reality, i.e., that he has three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I’d explain more but I lack the philosophical knowledge to do so. I do, however, point you to this article: newadvent.org/cathen/11726a.htm

Hmmmmmmmmmm

Getting deep!

The New Advent directly on the Trinity is newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

This is the inital statement :

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion – **the truth that in the unity of the Godhead **there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

The unity of the Godhead seems to be the ‘oneness’ factor. One in Love.

I’m out of here now.I’ve had far too much to say…but it’s been great.

 

[BlaineTog]

You are persisitently applying ‘one interpretation’ to it. I think you are entitled to hold your opinion - the Church statements aren’t against your opinion that they are the same. The point is there is not enough in them to accuse someone else of infidelity if they have another opinion.

I’m not accusing anyone of infidelity. I’m simply pointing out that there’s nothing ambiguous about the phrasing; if we’re working under the assumption that the catechism is carefully phrased, then the use of “the” rather than “a” is incredibly significant. And if you assume that the phrasing is sloppy, then it seems to me no less ambiguous as to what the gist of the section is. I’m not indicting anyone here, I just don’t see any way out of the logic of the situation.

 

[porthos11]

I think you have been incredibly hard on Grace, without a leg to stand on. She is free to have her opinion as are you, the Church is not conclusively agreeing with either of you. But you are accusing her of disloyalty…unwarranted.

I have two legs: Nostra Aetate and Lumen Gentium and the plain text they present.

As much as I like Fr. Pacwa and Cdl. Pell, they too are trying to put a spin on the plain-as-noses text of LG and NA. I’m not pushing the “profess the faith of Abraham” part because they clearly do NOT possess the faith of Abraham, despite professing to possess it.

But along with Nikk, the Church writes, very clearly, very plainly, no spin needed.

Together with us, Muslims adore the one God.

Not like us, not similar to us but TOGETHER with us. Not “a” god, but “the” God. If we adore something TOGETHER, then it’s got to be the same thing. Their worship is lacking, imperfect, and woefully inadequate. But they are intentionally directing it to the God of Abraham, the Creator and the Judge, despite their skewed understanding of him.

But look here. I’m simply taking a text, context considered and drawing a plain, logical conclusion from it. You, GraceDK, Fr. Pacwa, and Cdl. Pell need to go through a whole grammatical analysis to get around what the Council so clearly said.

 

[porthos11]

Well, this thread is way over my head. But it seems to me that:

The Christian and Muslim definitions of The One God are quite different. The Trinity being one huge example. **We can’t both be right. One of us is wrong. **

Jews reject both the Trinity and the Incarnation, but no Catholic accuses them or worshipping a different God.

 

[ricmat]

Jews reject both the Trinity and the Incarnation, but no Catholic accuses them or worshipping a different God.

OK - bad example. That’s more of worshiping the same God, but an incomplete version of him.

But if your idea of “the one true God” is that he is a God that demands we blow ourselves up to kill innocent civilians - in his name - and that doing so gets you to heaven, THAT isn’t the God that Christians worship. And I do accuse those people of worshiping a different god. This isn’t a matter of being incomplete. It’s a matter of being totally different (no matter how much the claim is made that they are the same).

 

[JTBT]

OK - bad example. That’s more of worshiping the same God, but an incomplete version of him.

But if your idea of “the one true God” is that he is a God that demands we blow ourselves up to kill innocent civilians - in his name - and that doing so gets you to heaven, THAT isn’t the God that Christians worship. And I do accuse those people of worshiping a different god. This isn’t a matter of being incomplete. It’s a matter of being totally different (no matter how much the claim is made that they are the same).

Aren’t you judging the God of Islam by radical people who CLAIM to be Muslim? What would happen if you did the same for Christianity, for example take the worst examples of those who CLAIM to be Christian and judge all of Christianity by them, what kind of picture of Christianity do you get?
That being said I will agree that those that say that God demands we kill innocents do not worship the same God I worship.

 

[ricmat]

Aren’t you judging the God of Islam by radical people who CLAIM to be Muslim? What would happen if you did the same for Christianity, for example take the worst examples of those who CLAIM to be Christian and judge all of Christianity by them, what kind of picture of Christianity do you get?
That being said I will agree that those that say that God demands we kill innocents do not worship the same God I worship.

I’m not judging the God of Islam. I’m saying that people who worship a being whom they believe wants them to blow themselves and others up in order to reach heaven are not worshiping God. They are worshiping a being who wants them to blow people up. Of course, they may call the being they worship the one true God, or they may call him something else. But in reality, who they are worshiping is something else.

 

[JTBT]

… I’m saying that people who worship a being whom they believe wants them to blow themselves and others up in order to reach heaven are not worshiping God.

I agree with you and I said so in my last post.
my point is Muslims I know also agree you and say that the ones who do this are not practicing Islam.

 

[benedicter]

Aren’t you judging the God of Islam by radical people who CLAIM to be Muslim? What would happen if you did the same for Christianity, for example take the worst examples of those who CLAIM to be Christian and judge all of Christianity by them, what kind of picture of Christianity do you get?
That being said I will agree that those that say that God demands we kill innocents do not worship the same God I worship.

Hi, I have to come back here…the problem in essence isn’t the Muslim people, the problem IS the God of Islam in the Sunna (Quran, Hadiths and Mohammed example). The problem IS the commands given within the texts etc. Those Muslims that are radical i.e. Osama bin Laden are pure faithful Muslims to the texts of Islam. Osama can point to book and verse to justify everything he does. Not every Muslim wants to emulate that violence but a faithful Muslim would still want to achieve the same end by even peaceful means; that is the establishment of Sharia as the rule of law and Islam as the dominant religion. Now if they don’t want these things thhen despite being Muslim they would be ‘cafeteria Muslims’ or ‘nominal Muslims’. That is what ‘radicalisation’ is about making these ones ‘wake up’ and ‘smell the Sharia’. Now despite the messy history of Christianity there are no commands in the texts that Christians can point to to justify killing in the same way. There is no scriptural equivalence here. Despite any acts of violence in the Hebrew Scriptures there is simply no moral equivalence here.

 

[benedicter]

I’m not judging the God of Islam. QUOTE]

You need to judge the God of Islam. Learn about this God (once you know your own!). Many Muslims don’t understand their own God. Islam is not as difficult as Christianity to get a grips with. While many scholars like to obfuscate and make it difficult it isn’t. For instance how many schools of Islam have rejected Sharia Law - none. Islam could never reject Sharia, it would be like Christians rejecting the Bible, even more so.

 

[benedicter]

I my point is Muslims I know also agree you and say that the ones who do this are not practicing Islam.

The may reject violence in principle but agree with the aims. Also many Muslims say this but simply the texts don’t agree with them.

How many Muslims could be wrong on this? Consider the Regensburg speech, the Cartoons? Doesn’t the rioting, the polemics, the effigy burning give you a clue here.

 

[invocation]

the bottom line here is that Vatican2’s statement in Nostra Aetate is pretty much crystal clear on this point: We worship one and the same God.

Moreover, the demand by citizens whose countries are actively prosecuting wars that those of another religion renounce violence strikes the casual observer as a classic case of blindness to the log in one’s own eye.

I would encourage those who are interested in the direction that Roman Catholicism has pursued relative to this topic to examine the work of the Franciscan Tertiary and Eastern Rite priest, Louis Massignon who went on to found the Little Brothers of Jesus. He dedicated his life to a greater understanding of and dialogue with Islam, which he said enriched his Catholic faith [a claim with which I personally would likewise make]. He was also decisively influential for the statement on Islam in Nostra Aetate, which I now include:

"3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their desserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom. "

may the peace of christ be with you.

 

[benedicter]

He dedicated his life to a greater understanding of and dialogue with Islam, which he said enriched his Catholic faith [a claim with which I personally would likewise make].
.

That is interesting. Can you tell more about how Islam enriches your Catholic faith?