ALLAH same as GOD ? Or is this HERESY ?

[Melchior]

Simply illogical; if we go by this, as people here pointed out, Jews must not worship the one true God as well, yet few Christians are willing to accept this. What then singles Muslims out on this one?

Actually if you are familiar with logic it is the only logical position. Saying something is not logical without backing it up does not prove your point. Further you change the subject. You are avoiding the issue by bringing up the Jews. We can discuss that later if you like but it is not what we are discussing. Jews are not muslims and their origins are entirely different - for one, Judaism was actually the true faith at one time in history, Islam has always been false. Stick to one thing at a time.

Again, like mty analogy above, it’s like two people talking about the same person, yet describing him differently. Are they talking about two different people? At frist glance, it seems so, if you listen to them, yet carefully weeding out those biases, one would realize that they’re actually talking about the same person. The difference again lies in how we see God’s nature to be. That is where we differ from Muslims.

Is the Jesus of the Mormons the Jesus of Catholics and other traditional Christians? Just because they call him Jesus doesn’t make it so. In fact scipture says their will be many false Christs.

Again, simply a non-issue, unless one thinks Ishmael worshipped a different God (and that won’t make the person Biblical then).

Um, their religion did not come from Ishmael. Islam was 700 years after Christ. Ishmael lived thousands of years before Christ - plus, Isaac was the annointed son.

Jews do not believe in the Trinity, do not believe Jesus to be God the Son, do not believe that He died and resurrected. Jews must not believe in God then.

Your trouble with logic and understanding someone elses argument is showing. I said, regarding muslims they believe in a false god, not that they are atheists. Jews are not the subject of discussion here. But you are right, anyone who rejects Christ, rejects His father. Jesus said that himself - if you don’t like it, take it up with him.

False analogy; one has to first show that Islam then is insane. The burden of proof lies on the one making the accusation.

:ehh: The main point was not that the sister was insane it was just part of the story and all analogies break down at some point. The main premise is that the sister, sane or not, thinks the neighbors mom is her mom, she is wrong. The point is perfectly germane. Care to deal with it? Or are you going to dimiss it my focusing on a non issue?

The bottom line is this: Muslims deny the Lordship of Christ. Muslims deny the Trinitarian God. Muslims deny that Christ is God. Muslims deny the atoning work of Christ. Muslims deny the resurrection of Christ. And I’m pretty sure they deny the Virgin Birth as well. There is no doubt from even Christ’s own words that denial of Him means denying the Father. Those who do this worship a god of their own making, a false god. Are you willing to say what they believe is true of the God you worship? Both cannot be true. That would be illogical.

Mel

 

[Melchior]

if the Church says satan believes in the God abraham, how does it differ when you subsitute satan with another name? will another name be worse?

It is different because satan is a spirit being and has true knowledge of who God is. The church does not say satan worships the God of Abraham does she?

 

[Reuben_J]

(If I may be permitted to use religious polemics) To allow such deception is to allow Satan to win. After all, he created a religion mimicking Christianity to deceive people. He made a murderous thieving bandit, someone who enslaved innocent women and children, someone who committed genocide, someone who lusted after his adopted son’s wife, who committed polygamy and pedophilia to be his prophet. Would the God of Abraham make such a man his final and most authoritative prophet, without pulling him up on all those crimes? Would the God of Abraham allow his final and most authoritative prophet the right to break the 10 Commandments willy nillly?

Very persuasive.

To me the line stops at the point when they say Jesus is mere prophet. This is the BIGGEST lie!!!

Who can only say this if not Satan?

Satan was defeated when Jesus took the cross. He should graciously take the back seat, licked his wound and enjoyed the warmth (or is it scorching heat) of his abode. But Mr. S is never gracious. Anyway he has to live up to his reputation. Islam is his fallback action to salvage whatever is left after the Lord’s brilliant coup. There might be some holy values and thoughts in the Quran and these can come only from God, even if Satan cleverly use them to camouflage his real intention to confuse. So you get truth, half-truth and downright lies in the Quran.

Mohammad is a sad story. Deprived of childhood and without parents he grew up with that massive void that need tons and tons of inner healing for his altered ego and rejection suffered as a result of his unfortunate environment - and became a perfect fertile ground for Satan’s trickery and scheme. Mohammad used Khadijah for a mother he never had. He leeched on her wealth - living on a woman. When Khadijah died, his sickness surfaced - the need to posses women he never had . Pedophilia is a sickness, we know that. Mohammad didn’t marry Aisha because of anything other than his terrible condition.

The void he experienced as orphan translated to needs for power, for attention. That was sad, really sad. He could never say God his Father, situation not uncommon for Christians. But God is a Father. Only Jesus could have saved Mohammad in this situation, but then Satan got to him first and he succumbed to it. So we have revelations and verses to suit this man madness, which Satan willingly obliged. These verses are not from God or Allah, no, they are satanic.

 

[Reuben_J]

It is different because satan is a spirit being and has true knowledge of who God is. The church does not say satan worships the God of Abraham does she?

Satan has privileged knowledge and knows who God is. He knows the truth - that God is the creator, the omnipotent and the Holy One. He knows he should worship God as all creations should. But satan doesn’t. It’s because of pride. Pride goes before a fall - that speaks of Satan. He was the most beautiful and most handsome. It got to his head and see what becomes of him.

 

[Valke2]

It’s okay for friends to disagree. I think there are two equally valid viewpoints though I believe only one should be promulgated.

Two viewpoints from a Catholic perspective. I believe a muslim might have a third viewpoint.

I think it is dangerous to promulgate viewpoint 2 because unthinking people do not understand the underlying theology. They only hear the throw-away line: Muslims and Christians worship the same god.

Yet this seems to be the viewpoint adopted by the Catholic Church.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

1 And the Muslim viewpoint would be wrong, wouldn’t it, since Muhammad plagiarized the apocrypha and couldn’t even get the Trinity correct. What sort of God of Abraham can’t get the Trinity correct (post Jesus Christ, that is).

2 I have already said I think the authors of the catechism are wrong in this case for the reasons I have elucidated.

 

[Valke2]

1 And the Muslim viewpoint would be wrong, wouldn’t it, since Muhammad plagiarized the apocrypha and couldn’t even get the Trinity correct. What sort of God of Abraham can’t get the Trinity correct (post Jesus Christ, that is).

2 I have already said I think the authors of the catechism are wrong in this case for the reasons I have elucidated.

If the authors are wrong, I assume you are saying the Church is wrong on this? This is an official position of the Church, isn’t it?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Sure. AFAIK the catechism is not set in stone. It’s official Church teaching today but tomorrow is another day. I think it’s wrong on this issue and should be changed. Perhaps one day Pope Ben XVI may change it, during less ecumenical, less PC times. I believe it goes counter to some other Church teachings as denial of Jesus Christ’s divinity cannot be any part of Grace.

 

[Milliardo]

**

Actually if you are familiar with logic it is the only logical position. Saying something is not logical without backing it up does not prove your point.

Sorry, your point is still illogical. Jews don’t accept Jesus’ Lordship as well; they don’t accept the Trinity, nor do they see Jesus as God the Son. You cannot ignore those things. Why then do they worship the same God we do while Muslims don’t? Nothing in your explanation gives any logical position on this one. You simply say that Muslims worship a different God based on how they percieve God to be, which does not necessarily mean they do worship a different God. As I’ve pointed out, it’s like two people having a different perspective on the same person. You would have to provide better evidence than merely saying they don’t worship the same God we do.

Further you change the subject. You are avoiding the issue by bringing up the Jews.

No, they’re very much connected. As I stated, you pointed out that Muslims don’t subscribe to the Trinity, Jesus’ Lordship or Him being God the Son. Jews don’t as well. Wouldn’t it be fair to conclude then that the Jews don’t worship the same God based on your premise?

Is the Jesus of the Mormons the Jesus of Catholics and other traditional Christians? Just because they call him Jesus doesn’t make it so. In fact scipture says their will be many false Christs.

Hhmm…now you’re bringing in another discussion, totally unrelated to the subject. I would think another thread would be more appropriate for this one, but it can be argued that the Mormons do believe in the Jesus that we believe in; again where we would differ is how we actually see Jesus to be.

Um, their religion did not come from Ishmael. Islam was 700 years after Christ. Ishmael lived thousands of years before Christ - plus, Isaac was the annointed son.

They do make it a point to show they come from him; now, whether they do come from him or not is irrelevant, as it does not wholly show us that they worship a different God.

Your trouble with logic and understanding someone elses argument is showing. I said, regarding muslims they believe in a false god, not that they are atheists.

Where did I say they’re atheists? I said Jews do not believe in the Trinity as well; if that is so, why are they exempt from worshipping a false God and Muslims are not? The burden of proof lies on you then to show this. Nothing so far in your answers show this.

 Quote:
                                             False analogy; one has to first show that Islam then is insane. The burden of proof lies on the one making the accusation

The main point was not that the sister was insane it was just part of the story and all analogies break down at some point.

Yes, but there are flaws to your analogy, one of which is what I pointed out. My analogy shows two sane people talking about the same person. Your analogy shows someone who is not in his right state of mind calling someone else her mom. The analogy does not fit, clearly, as we have yet to establish that Islam is not in fact sane. Since that is not our point of discussion, we shall leave it at that. But my point is that if one has to make an analogy, it should fit the issue at hand to make it credible. An ill-fitting analogy would not serve its purpose.

The bottom line is this: Muslims deny the Lordship of Christ. Muslims deny the Trinitarian God. Muslims deny that Christ is God. Muslims deny the atoning work of Christ. Muslims deny the resurrection of Christ. And I’m pretty sure they deny the Virgin Birth as well. There is no doubt from even Christ’s own words that denial of Him means denying the Father. Those who do this worship a god of their own making, a false god. Are you willing to say what they believe is true of the God you worship? Both cannot be true. That would be illogical.

Ah, but our point here is God the Father, not Christ Himself. Those are two different issues. Let us stick first to the topic at hand–God the Father. If we go into this, then what I said before I will say again: you would have to condemn Judaism as well since they deny the Trinity, Jesus’ Lordship, Him as God the Son, the Virgin birth, Jesus’ atoning sacrifice, and His resurrection and ascension. So, the burden of proof still lies on you to provide a more convincing evidence than this, or else the point about Judaism will always be thrown back at you no matter what you post, since those points cannot be denied. Only by denying it would you make your point to be true–which is illogical.

 

[Image_of_God]

I would argue that Jews are not worshipping the same God. They deny what has been revealed - the Trinity. But at least they are taking part of the Bible into account and have the right foundation, so an ignorance argument can be made to those who have never heard of Christ. They are like those given John’s baptism not aware of the Holy Spirit (at least that could be argued). The muslims enjoy no biblical heritage.

Mel

This makes no sense. This would have to mean that the God that was revealed to the Jews, Yahweh, was false. No one new about the Trinity at this time and that would mean that every holy person who died before the time of Jesus was not saved. Baptism was not even heard of until the time of John.

The point is that none of what you said is what the Catholic Church teaches. What actually happened was that Jesus went down to Abraham’s Bosom and open the gates of heaven for them. Muslims may not have any biblical heritage, and they might percieve God different from Christians and Jews, but they basically believe that their God is Creator and All-Good. Now, we might argue about what they attribute to God, but to indicate that there is a Creator other than God is false.

 

[StMarkEofE]

Melchior, do you know that satan believes in the God of Abraham?

This question has me puzzled: If Allah is the same God as the God of the Christians, why did he create a new religion to persecute the very faith He sent His only begotten Son to redeem? Why invent a new religion to counter many of Christ’s messages of Love thy neighbor? It just dosnt make sense and just from this I can safely say that the Muslim God or Allah is NOT the same as our Christian God.

 

[Damascus]

This question has me puzzled: If Allah is the same God as the God of the Christians, why did he create a new religion to persecute the very faith He sent His only begotten Son to redeem?

God did not create Islam. Islam worships the one God of Abraham, Moses, you know the drill. Muhammed invented Islam.

Why invent a new religion to counter many of Christ’s messages of Love thy neighbor? It just dosnt make sense and just from this I can safely say that the Muslim God or Allah is NOT the same as our Christian God.

Same God, as there is only one God.

Muslims understanding of God is very blurry. That’s all. Its so blurry that they could not see how it makes no sense to have a prophet after Jesus Christ.

Whatever.

Dont get God mixed up into being blamed for what Mo did.

 

[tequilamac]

It is for sure that Islam’s deity is not the God of the Christians for the simple fact, that God’s love for Israel was declared openly steadfast and eternal and Jesus Christ sent by God, was born as a Jew, sent as a Jew and died as King of the Jews. Yet today, the muslims are taught to massacre Jews.

The bible states that he who denies the Father and the Son and the deity of Christ is the Anti-Christ. Islam does this openly and thereby classifies itself as the Anti-Christian religion.

The book of revelations in 20:4 states that saints will be beheaded for Christ but later resurrected by God. Again, the only ones doing beheading in the entire world is the muslims.

Beyond a doubt, the deity of islam that hates Jews, promotes re-marriages, supports its founder’s incestuous relationship with his own adopted son’s wife plus pedophilic activities with little 9 year old girls totally violate the teachings of God.

The name allah is the name of an idol. Muslims say “there is no god but allah”, this naturally means that the word allah cannot literally mean god because no one says “there is no hill but hill”. Putting this together, muslims who shout allahu akhbar (allah is greater/greatest) are actually openly challenging that allah is greater than even God.

Now, with all these facts in place why should we force ourselves to agree with the ludicrous claim that just because we believe in one God, therefore allah must be it? Why not YHWH? Or are we acquiescing out of our dilemma to have God replaced right under our noses through some diabolical plan?

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The bible says, believers must know God and know the Son that He sent. Do we know God and do we have eternal life? Now, if we pray towards Mecca, is this considered Heresy? If so, I sure wish our Pope was cursing Mecca when he faced it.

There is only one God. And I thank God the Pope cursed no one. People hoping that God or the Pope damns Muslims might find themselves on the receiving end instead.
Even pagans do as much. Even muslims do as much as the hostile Christians on this board.
There is only one God, whether you know Him or not. Whether the Muslims know Him or not. He remains who He is.

 

[Damascus]

There is only one God. And I thank God the Pope cursed no one. People hoping that God or the Pope damns Muslims might find themselves on the receiving end instead.
Even pagans do as much. Even muslims do as much as the hostile Christians on this board.
There is only one God, whether you know Him or not. Whether the Muslims know Him or not. He remains who He is.

Yes and I did forget to add that whether you know Him or not, I guess my “blurry” description could be clearer like you stated it.

 

[Reuben_J]

My summary/conclusion on the subject of this thread after some personal insight in the preceding posts:

Allah is God since it has the attribute of the Creator; as we cannot have two or more creators.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 841:
The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Other attributes to Allah that contradict Christianity are lies from Satan. When we talk about Islam, we are talking about its formation being in the post-resurrection era. So Judaism is not included in this assessment since OT is common to them and Christianity.

The claim by Islam that it accepts revelations from prophets of the OT and NT should be rejected outright as false since it does not agree with OT and NT. It has to consider both the OT and NT ‘canonical’ and only disagree on Judaism and Christianity understanding of the scriptures for the claim to have any basis. In other word, no corrupted Bible.

Major point that’s not been touched by members participating on this thread is the fact that Mohammad never came face to face with Allah. Mohammad’s intermediary was always the angel Gabriel. This also makes Mohammad unique as a prophet, if it is true he is, as all previous prophets had their encounters with God.

The question that need to be satisfactorily addressed is - who was the Islamic angel Gabriel? Was it the same one in the annunciation in Luke 1? It’s obvious that it is not. The only explanation then is that it was the Devil at his infamous act of deception.

Then all will add up. The Devil deceived Mohammad who fell for it as he was in a vulnerable state which was ripe to be had. The Devil had to speak about God but he lied about Him on many scores, notably about Jesus. Thus the truth, half-truth and the outright lies.

The Devil’s modus operandi in the deception of Mohammad was the same when he did it to Eve in Genesis.

**Gen 3:4 **
But the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die! No, God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be likes gods … “.

The Devil lied as he masqueraded as the serpent. With Mohammad, he lied by saying that, no, Jesus did not die (paraphrased), as he masqueraded as the angel Gabriel.

Thus the CCC is right by saying that Muslims worship the same God, as long as that being is the creator. In actual practice, of course, Mohammad has been had and so Islam has many doctrines and practices that run counter to the God that we know of.

God bless.

 

[Jesusisgod]

The argument that just because the muslims claim to worship one God implies they are worshipping the same God as Christians is ludicrous. True muslims only believe in buddha. So, is buddha also God?

Allah is not God because whatever God loves, Allah sought to destroy. And whatever God hates, Allah promoted it. This cannot be the same entity with different aspects. Saying it is, is forcing God to contradict Himself and is an abomination.

Recently, I came across an article that says that Satan’s original name was heylel in hebrew. Written in Isaiah. The name heylel is found to be a noun with its verb form as HALAL.

Halal now refers to muslim foods. Sacrificed facing mecca’s allah-stone. Anyone who partakes of halal food therefore becomes guilty of partaking food offered to idols.

Going further, does this mean that Satan’s name will be found on christian defactor’s foreheads and hands for them to perform transactions?

Looks like the only to save ourselves is to depend on the bible and stop depending on man.

 

[Jesusisgod]

Correction. The argument that just because the muslims claim to worship one God implies they are worshipping the same God as Christians is ludicrous. True buddhists only believe in buddha. So, is buddha also God?

Allah is not God because whatever God loves, Allah sought to destroy. And whatever God hates, Allah promoted it. This cannot be the same entity with different aspects. Saying it is, is forcing God to contradict Himself and is an abomination.

Recently, I came across an article that says that Satan’s original name was heylel in hebrew. Written in Isaiah. The name heylel is found to be a noun with its verb form as HALAL.

Halal now refers to muslim foods. Sacrificed facing mecca’s allah-stone. Anyone who partakes of halal food therefore becomes guilty of partaking food offered to idols.

Going further, does this mean that Satan’s name will be found on christian defactor’s foreheads and hands for them to perform transactions?

Looks like the only to save ourselves is to follow the teachings of the bible and stop depending on man.

 

[Damascus]

Stop depending on man? Jesusisgod?

Jesus Christ was a man and I totally depend on him.

Mo, I do not.

 

[tequilamac]

The argument that just because the muslims claim to worship one God implies they are worshipping the same God as Christians is ludicrous. True muslims only believe in buddha. So, is buddha also God?

Allah is not God because whatever God loves, Allah sought to destroy. And whatever God hates, Allah promoted it. This cannot be the same entity with different aspects. Saying it is, is forcing God to contradict Himself and is an abomination.

Recently, I came across an article that says that Satan’s original name was heylel in hebrew. Written in Isaiah. The name heylel is found to be a noun with its verb form as HALAL.

Halal now refers to muslim foods. Sacrificed facing mecca’s allah-stone. Anyone who partakes of halal food therefore becomes guilty of partaking food offered to idols.

Going further, does this mean that Satan’s name will be found on christian defactor’s foreheads and hands for them to perform transactions?

Looks like the only to save ourselves is to depend on the bible and stop depending on man.

Don’t be silly. Is Dios God? Is Deus God? Is God God? If Dios is God and Deus is God and Domino is God and God is God than Allah is as much God as Dios, Deus, Domino and God.

But what you are telling us is this:
A Mexican who has Dios on his forehead is wearing the name of Satan.
A man who spoke only Latin who had Deus or Domino on their forehead has Satan’s name on his head.
A man who calls God God on his forehead has Satan’s name on his forehead.
A Frenchman who has mon dieu on his forhead has Satan’s name on his forehead.
All this because Muslims call God Allah and according to you that is the name of Satan?
You my friend are in serious deep doo doo.

 

[Jesusisgod]

Don’t be silly. Is Dios God? Is Deus God? Is God God? If Dios is God and Deus is God and Domino is God and God is God than Allah is as much God as Dios, Deus, Domino and God.

But what you are telling us is this:
A Mexican who has Dios on his forehead is wearing the name of Satan.
A man who spoke only Latin who had Deus or Domino on their forehead has Satan’s name on his head.
A man who calls God God on his forehead has Satan’s name on his forehead.
A Frenchman who has mon dieu on his forhead has Satan’s name on his forehead.
All this because Muslims call God Allah and according to you that is the name of Satan?
You my friend are in serious deep doo doo.

NOPE. Only Yahweh is God. And I’m not your friend.