I
Image_of_God
Guest
Jews and Christians do worship of the God of Moses. Jews believe that God will come to save the whole world. We believe he already has.
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A
Angelos
Guest
One logical fallacy upon another! I am not sticking to it to show that you are NOT!
What now, are you going to accuse me for accusing all Muslims of blaspheming for not sticking to the topic? 
I think you have failed to answer that question. The only thing I can remember now is that last time you brought up this allegation almost in the same words you ended your post by declaring me a “deceitful missionary”. Thus, you could give no satisfactory answer.
I can’t see that your Scripture draws a clear-cut boundary between Jews and Christians on the basis of worshipping the same deity! The only thing I can see is that Mohammed’s Scripture repeatedly forces Jews & Christians into the same category of “disbelievers” so as to elevate Muslims as the followers of the so-called true faith.
Stop distorting your Scripture please! The verse I referred to accuses Jews for worshipping Uzayr and Rabbis in the same context as Christians! More, the sentence of condemnation is in PRESENT tense: “May Allah fight them! How they ARE deluded from the truth!”
I want to add a few questions about Uzayr: Why does Quran lack a narrative describing the fate of that particular Jewish group? Who were they? Where did they live? When did they start to worship Uzayr? Why did they do such a thing? Above all, why does Quran refer to them if they were an unknown and minor group? How dare the Quran call them “Jewish” if they did not believe in mainstream Judaism?
I KNEW that the writers of the Quran did NOT have a mini camera following Abraham in the desert all their life
I am not upset. Very happy now
Say it to your Muslim apologists and Imams please. They are the ones that teach “Allah is a name confined to the god of Islam!”
Peace to you, and happy bairam! Bairam mubarak!
Angelos N.
V
Valke2
Guest
Be careful what you wish for
V
Valke2
Guest
Jews believe the Messiah will come. But not the Messiah will be Divine.Jews and Christians do worship of the God of Moses. Jews believe that God will come to save the whole world. We believe he already has.
J
Jesusisgod
Guest
Meedo,
We just proved to you that allah is not God and
you return to divert the topic to one between Jews and Christians.
[Moderator Note: Removed insulting comments]
Don’t wish to sound harsh, but fine…lets compare since that’s what you’re attempting here.
A — Christians believe Jesus is God.
Evidence:
1 -Historical evidences.
2- Jesus had prophetic and miraculous power
3 -Jesus had a miraculous birth
4 -Jesus had an impeccable character
5 -Jesus is returning in 2nd coming
B — Muslims believe Allah is God.
Evidence: None.
Counter evidences: Many
1 - No evidence of all the claims in the K’oran.
2 - Muslims say “there is no god but allah” - Meaning allah is not god.
3 - Allah’s prophet said in Bukhari Volume 7, Book 63, Number 187: “No, she cannot re-marry the first
husband unless the second husband consummates his marriage with her, just as the first husband had done.”,
but in Jeremiah 3:1 and Deuteronomy 24, God said such acts are DETESTABLE AND DEFILEMENT.
Deut:"Their marriage would pollute the land that the LORD your God is giving you, and he would be disgusted.
This means that Allah was not the one Moses had spoken to!
4 - Allah’s prophet had no prophetic powers, no miraculous power
5 - Allah’s prophet is in Mecca, and all his sons died in their infancies.
NOW, YOU WANT TO COMPARE? I love comparing.
We just proved to you that allah is not God and
you return to divert the topic to one between Jews and Christians.
[Moderator Note: Removed insulting comments]
Don’t wish to sound harsh, but fine…lets compare since that’s what you’re attempting here.
A — Christians believe Jesus is God.
Evidence:
1 -Historical evidences.
2- Jesus had prophetic and miraculous power
3 -Jesus had a miraculous birth
4 -Jesus had an impeccable character
5 -Jesus is returning in 2nd coming
B — Muslims believe Allah is God.
Evidence: None.
Counter evidences: Many
1 - No evidence of all the claims in the K’oran.
2 - Muslims say “there is no god but allah” - Meaning allah is not god.
3 - Allah’s prophet said in Bukhari Volume 7, Book 63, Number 187: “No, she cannot re-marry the first
husband unless the second husband consummates his marriage with her, just as the first husband had done.”,
but in Jeremiah 3:1 and Deuteronomy 24, God said such acts are DETESTABLE AND DEFILEMENT.
Deut:"Their marriage would pollute the land that the LORD your God is giving you, and he would be disgusted.
This means that Allah was not the one Moses had spoken to!
4 - Allah’s prophet had no prophetic powers, no miraculous power
5 - Allah’s prophet is in Mecca, and all his sons died in their infancies.
NOW, YOU WANT TO COMPARE? I love comparing.
M
Mirdath
Guest
Thought I’d share this part of Paul VI’s Nostra Aetate… you guys might find it interesting and relevant:
*3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom. *
Paul’s opinion is pretty clearly ‘yes’, that Allah = God.
*3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom. *
Paul’s opinion is pretty clearly ‘yes’, that Allah = God.
J
Jesusisgod
Guest
That’s a reasonable one, Mirdath,
But if we were to take Paul VI’s word for it, we would be ignoring the scripture to view these as anti-christ and instead esteem them as brethrens.
I have a struggle (within myself). Who should I listen to? God (aka Jesus) or Paul VI?
Why don’t you tell me?
But if we were to take Paul VI’s word for it, we would be ignoring the scripture to view these as anti-christ and instead esteem them as brethrens.
I have a struggle (within myself). Who should I listen to? God (aka Jesus) or Paul VI?
Why don’t you tell me?
L
LilyM
Guest
Well, if Jesus is the earthly Incarnation of the God of Israel and the Jews, then why did his followers totally abandon many of the God-revealed laws that the Jews, including Jesus himself, followed and continue to follow, including the traditional Jewish Saturday sabbath, circumcision and so on?
It is not biblical at all to say that Jews don’t worship the same God as us. Jesus never said or hinted any such thing.
As for other deities. Paul preached to the GREEKS, did he not, that their ‘unknown God’ was the SAME God he preached? To be sure their understanding of that God would differ much more from ours than that of the Muslims. The Greek ‘unknown God’ was one of a polytheistic pantheon of Gods for starters. Yet Paul said they were one and the same.
So why jump on Muslims in particular?
M
Mirdath
Guest
How about God/Jesus through his representative on Earth, Paul VI?
There is no scripture condemning Muslims as the anti-Christ, nor any teachings of Jesus saying people should hate or condemn anyone. This struggle is not between the teachings of God and the teachings of Paul VI, but between your own xenophobia and the teachings of the Church. Good luck.
B
birdsong
Guest
Hello Mirdath;
I happen to disagree with you in that muslims/jews worship the same God that catholics do … I posted this before:
**And here’s what I think is the clincher: if anyone says that muslims and jews are worshiping the same God as we Catholics do, please show me muslim/jewish teachings that instruct people to worship Jesus.
Since I know that people may counter my argument with something along the lines of “muslims/jews only worship the Father, so they are indirectly worshiping Jesus”, I will then ask those people to show me documents/teachings of the catholic church (pre-Vatican II, of course!) that unequivocally show that it is valid worship to adore the Father and at the same time knowingly make a mockery and/or insult or ignore The Son (something I think muslims do, by the way).**
It will be very interesting to hear your response to this.
thanks
I happen to disagree with you in that muslims/jews worship the same God that catholics do … I posted this before:
**And here’s what I think is the clincher: if anyone says that muslims and jews are worshiping the same God as we Catholics do, please show me muslim/jewish teachings that instruct people to worship Jesus.
Since I know that people may counter my argument with something along the lines of “muslims/jews only worship the Father, so they are indirectly worshiping Jesus”, I will then ask those people to show me documents/teachings of the catholic church (pre-Vatican II, of course!) that unequivocally show that it is valid worship to adore the Father and at the same time knowingly make a mockery and/or insult or ignore The Son (something I think muslims do, by the way).**
It will be very interesting to hear your response to this.
thanks
B
birdsong
Guest
Hi Lyli;
I do not agree with you. I am convinced that jews and muslims do not worship the God of catholics. Could you please respond to the following?
**And here’s what I think is the clincher: if anyone says that muslims and jews are worshiping the same God as we Catholics do, please show me muslim/jewish teachings that instruct people to worship Jesus.
Since I know that people may counter my argument with something along the lines of “muslims/jews only worship the Father, so they are indirectly worshiping Jesus”, I will then ask those people to show me documents/teachings of the catholic church (pre-Vatican II, of course!) that unequivocally show that it is valid worship to adore the Father and at the same time knowingly make a mockery and/or insult or ignore The Son (something I think muslims do, by the way).**
it’ll be interesting to hear your opinion
thanks
I do not agree with you. I am convinced that jews and muslims do not worship the God of catholics. Could you please respond to the following?
**And here’s what I think is the clincher: if anyone says that muslims and jews are worshiping the same God as we Catholics do, please show me muslim/jewish teachings that instruct people to worship Jesus.
Since I know that people may counter my argument with something along the lines of “muslims/jews only worship the Father, so they are indirectly worshiping Jesus”, I will then ask those people to show me documents/teachings of the catholic church (pre-Vatican II, of course!) that unequivocally show that it is valid worship to adore the Father and at the same time knowingly make a mockery and/or insult or ignore The Son (something I think muslims do, by the way).**
it’ll be interesting to hear your opinion
thanks
M
Mirdath
Guest
Obviously they don’t worship Jesus – if they did, they’d be Christian
Christianity, however, had its beginnings as a Jewish Messianic cult. Jesus claimed to be the son of the Abrahamic God. Islam is also an Abrahamic religion.
One can believe in the same God but have different ideas about what that God is or what forms he takes. Islam and Judaism (and, I might add, Unitarianism) disagree with the doctrine of the Trinity. That doesn’t mean they worship a different God, just that you and they disagree on the form of God. You are all worshipping the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Muslims don’t mock or ignore Jesus; indeed, they revere him as the second-to-last great prophet. They just don’t believe in his divinity.
B
birdsong
Guest
Thanks for the reply Mirdath, but I don’t think you answered satisfactorily to my questions. In essence, I asked you or anyone else who says that muslims/jews worship the same God that catholics worship to please show me the theological discourse and documents (pre-vatican II) that unequivocally say that it is valid from a catholic point of view to offer worship only to the Father and knowingly insult/offend/ignore the Son and the Holy Spirit.
thanks
thanks
Obviously they don’t worship Jesus – if they did, they’d be Christian
Christianity, however, had its beginnings as a Jewish Messianic cult. Jesus claimed to be the son of the Abrahamic God. Islam is also an Abrahamic religion.
One can believe in the same God but have different ideas about what that God is or what forms he takes. Islam and Judaism (and, I might add, Unitarianism) disagree with the doctrine of the Trinity. That doesn’t mean they worship a different God, just that you and they disagree on the form of God. You are all worshipping the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Muslims don’t mock or ignore Jesus; indeed, they revere him as the second-to-last great prophet. They just don’t believe in his divinity.
M
Mirdath
Guest
It’s not valid from a Catholic point of view. That’s why Islam and Judaism are different religions. Catholicism requires Trinitarian belief; the others say differently. It’s a slightly more radical shift in doctrine of the form of God from the Orthodox-Catholic disagreement over the filioque clause. Do the Orthodox worship a different God because they believe the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father, not from the Father and the Son?
B
birdsong
Guest
thanks for your reply. I will now ask you the following: Why does the Vatican II say Catholics AND muslims adore the same God? The thing is, from a catholic point of view, valid worship can only be done within the confines of the catholic church. So then, could you explain to me why would the catholic church want to associate with cults/religions that knowingly deny the divinity of Jesus?
Again, it all comes down to the same topic: it can’t objectively be said (from a theological point of view, of course) that muslims/jews/budhists and every other monotheists cult/religion validly worship the same God that catholics worship.
That’s why I find it totally erroneous that Vatican II says “we Catholics and muslims adore the same God”.
Again, it all comes down to the same topic: it can’t objectively be said (from a theological point of view, of course) that muslims/jews/budhists and every other monotheists cult/religion validly worship the same God that catholics worship.
That’s why I find it totally erroneous that Vatican II says “we Catholics and muslims adore the same God”.
A
Angelos
Guest
Sorry, but your question is impertinent, misleading, and based on a misunderstanding. The Orthodox Church keeps faithful to the original form of the Nicene Creed whereas Catholics add the filioque clause, following an inferential strategy. Still, the occurrence/absence of this particular clause does not indicate or imply different approaches to the divinity of the Spirit.
Our topic is Allah vs God in the light of the Bible and the Quran. Let me clarify: I *no more *use the name Allah in my prayers because Muslims manipulate that word and combine it with the notion of the Islamic Creator, whose peculiarities are defined in the Quran. Allah denies in the Quran that Jesus is His only begotten son! How can u still insist that Allah is the same as God the heavenly Father Jesus taught His followers?
Peace,
ANgelos N.
C
corvidae
Guest
I think the main thing here is people are not understanding that saying they worship the God of abraham is not saying that the God of abraham actually spoke to Muhamed.
They say they worship the God of Abraham, and they try to please the God of abraham, that does not mean that we must believe that their scriptures are God’s word. It means we believe that Muslims are in error regarding some things about God, but that does not mean they worship a different God, any more than the Jews worship a different God.
We all worship the God of Abraham (thus Abrahaminic religions) but that does not mean we have the same ideas on who the God of Abraham is, or what the God of Abraham did.
Please realize that saying Muslims worship the same God we do, in no way validates the Muslim Scriptures, or teachings. We are free to believe those are in error (and if we do not believe they are in error, we should be Muslim) but that does not mean that they worship a different God.
A lone Raven
They say they worship the God of Abraham, and they try to please the God of abraham, that does not mean that we must believe that their scriptures are God’s word. It means we believe that Muslims are in error regarding some things about God, but that does not mean they worship a different God, any more than the Jews worship a different God.
We all worship the God of Abraham (thus Abrahaminic religions) but that does not mean we have the same ideas on who the God of Abraham is, or what the God of Abraham did.
Please realize that saying Muslims worship the same God we do, in no way validates the Muslim Scriptures, or teachings. We are free to believe those are in error (and if we do not believe they are in error, we should be Muslim) but that does not mean that they worship a different God.
A lone Raven
I
Image_of_God
Guest
Muslims believe that their God is “All-Good.” To say that there is another “All-Good” God is simply unChristian. There is only one All Good God. Since Muslims believe that their God is merciful and compassion, is there any other God, but this one? Don’t Christians believe that their God is loving, All-Good, merciful and compassionate? Yes, and since there is no other source of benevolence, but God, they cannot be worshipping another one.
B
birdsong
Guest
Hi Corvidae;
I have posted the following before:
thanks
I have posted the following before:
could you please try to answer satisfactorily?
thanks
M
Mirdath
Guest
Because all such religions are attempting to reach the Truth, even if they have an imperfect understanding of it, and inspire humans toward good. While the Church does not recognize other religions as having the whole of that Truth, it does recognize that they have a part of it and respects that striving for good.
Besides, we’re all on the same planet – we can associate by throwing literal or metaphorical rocks at each other, or we can associate by being civil towards each other and maybe even helping each other out. Which one sounds like a better alternative?
Nobody’s said anything about validity. Christians believe that Jews and Muslims have an imperfect picture of God, the others believe you (and anyone else who isn’t them) has the faulty belief. But the God you are worshiping is the same being, even if you see him in different ways.
Also, Buddhism isn’t an Abrahamic tradition. The ‘People of the Book’ are Jews, Christians, and Muslims – and those are the people we’re discussing here.
I insist that the God of Jesus is the same as the God of Abraham, and that the Allah of Mohammed is the same as the God of Abraham. I’m not alone, either – the Vatican has declared it is so, as have Jewish and Muslim authorities.
As to how? Pretty easily, given Paul VI’s backing, which I posted earlier…
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