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Melanie01
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Oh my…the Catholics of past generations are rolling in their graves…
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Digitonomy
Guest
- If you believe that both the Bible and the Quran are correct, then clearly they cannot be the same God.
- If like most of us here, you believe that the Bible is correct and the Quran is in error, it seems reasonable to conclude that the “Allah has no son” statement is one of those errors.
- If you accept the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it’s pretty clear that we worship the same God.
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Digitonomy
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Your second example doesn’t include the names of any wives, and in the first it appears that the name is in a parenthetical editorial remarks inserted to clarify the text, not part of the text itself. The names do not appear in the three translations at this site:
usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/024.qmt.html#024.011
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tvalenci
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Objectively speaking, there is only one God. Regardless of what any other religions teach, there is only one God. Regardless of what anyone believes, there is only one God. I know the koran is in error. I know the Bible is correct. The koran was not divinely inspired. My question, therefore, is what (or whom) was behind the writing of the koran? Sounds like a lie. We know where those come from.
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Digitonomy
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Kind of beside the point. Regardless of how erroneous or false the origins of the Quran may be, the issue was “do Muslims worship the same God?” The Church has given us the answer.
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tvalenci
Guest
Since there is only one God, sincere peace-loving muslims who intend to worship God do just that–independent of their holy book and independent of their history. I think that this is what the Church is getting at. I think it is important to evaluate the fruits of the muslim faith in light of their holy book, however.
I also must ask a question. Are we to hold that everything the Church states in the Catechism is dogma (infallible)? My gut tells me yes, however, is it possible that this statement on the muslim faith could be modified in the future? I guess that I am very loyal to the Christian faith and am skeptical of other religions that deny Christ.
Also, I do not think it is beside the point to question the inspiration behind the koran because it could in fact be demonic.
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whatevergirl
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Interesting…
The truth about Islam though, is that Muslims do not see Jesus as God incarnate, like we do. So, yes, we worship God collectively,…but they do not believe in God, as the blessed Trinity the way we do. Technically, Muslims do not worship the fullness of God, as we view Him.
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Digitonomy
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I think it would be very problematic to hold that something in the Catechism is false. Is there any wiggle room? I’m not sure.
I think we can say with certainty that the Catechism is not the best way for the Church to express the Faith in every category. If it were, there would be no reason in the future to express the Faith on those topics in necessarily inferior ways.
It’s beside the point of whether Muslims worship the same God. Suppose for instance we could demonstrate that 4 Maccabbees or Psalm 151 were demonically inspired :whacky: It would still not follow that Orthodox who hold these scriptures dear worship a different God. Not a great example, since those scriptures don’t really challenge anything in our own canon. But the same would apply to some sect that followed the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, and thought that Jesus went around killing sparrows as a child, or whatever other silliness is in there.
As to whether the Quran is actually demonically inspired, I suppose I’d have to question how that is meant - that a demon actually wrote the text, or are you referring metaphorically to his inner demons of rage, envy, stubbornness, ignorance, etc?
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HEAVY_HAND
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It is amazing to me the incredible ‘seductivity’ of the world at large …namely, falling for the subtle deception that “Allah is the same as the Christian God”…
I have laughed and cried myself to sleep…until I relaized that, incredibly, many of my Catholic friends have fallen for the same blatant lie…
( Now I simply lie awake at night wondering if it is time to quit the Catholic Church).Let’s set the record straight …
First realize that Islam SAYS that Jesus was a prophet, BUT they (the Quran) rejects what he taught: ( Do I have to say what we call this type of behavior?
)…they reject Christ’s claim of Diety
…they reject the Virgin Birth
…they reject Jesus’ death in the Cross !
…they reject his Resurrection !
…they reject that Jesus is the Son of God !
…they reject that Jesus is the ‘Messiah’…
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In fact, Islam says…“Allah has no Son” !!**
Need I say More? Duh?
Don’t be deceived …the god of Isalm is NOT the same as the God of Jesus Christ. :tsktsk:
Heavy Hand
Oh, and by the Way…the Apostle John said:
“Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is anti-Christ, that denies the Father and the Son. He that denies the Son, the same HAS NOT THE FATHER.” (I John 2:22)
Duh? Hello?
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Dale_M
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The God of the Muslims and the God of Christians is the same God - this is what the Catholic Church teaches.
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm
Again, I will point to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
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tvalenci
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Heavy Hand,
I think that you follow where I am going with my posts. In the spirit of ecumenism, the Church states that muslims worship the same God that we do. Objectively, since there is only one God, then that is who they are worshipping. I just do not think (based on your logic and mine) that muslims are worshipping our God.
Please rest easy that the Catholic Church is where you should be.
tvalenci
I think that you follow where I am going with my posts. In the spirit of ecumenism, the Church states that muslims worship the same God that we do. Objectively, since there is only one God, then that is who they are worshipping. I just do not think (based on your logic and mine) that muslims are worshipping our God.
Please rest easy that the Catholic Church is where you should be.
tvalenci
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tvalenci
Guest
Again, I will point to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Dale_M,
I am aware of what the catechism says, however, I am willing to bet it would not have said that during the crusades. What does your intellect tell you regarding islam? I am trained as a scientist and tend to think logically. I am just putting forward what I have read in the koran and the logic simply does not follow and I could envision a time that the Church may change it’s teaching on this matter. I think it is an interesting topic and I will defer to the teachings of the Church–an exercise in humility.
Dale_M,
I am aware of what the catechism says, however, I am willing to bet it would not have said that during the crusades. What does your intellect tell you regarding islam? I am trained as a scientist and tend to think logically. I am just putting forward what I have read in the koran and the logic simply does not follow and I could envision a time that the Church may change it’s teaching on this matter. I think it is an interesting topic and I will defer to the teachings of the Church–an exercise in humility.
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HEAVY_HAND
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Thank you tvalenci…for bringing some sense of peace to my fractured faith in Catholocism. I went back and read your other posts and agree with your point and particularly questions as to the spiritual origin of Quran. (I refer you to my last Scripture quote from St John … which clears that up since we certainly know who is the author of all lies).
I also see Genesis315’s point that we can consider Muslims as somewhat woshipping what they ‘know not’…it is therefore neccessary to '“declare to them the God whom they worship ignorantly” as Paul says. However, I think they are more on the order of Jews than pagans since they do claim Abraham as thier forefather and have a very strict legalistic adherence. However, I’m sure they wouldn’t appreciate the resemblance.
Heavy Hand (trying to be less- heavy about this).
P.S. I agree …it is entirely possible the Church will change their position on this …Calling The Islamic god the same as the God we know through Christ is certainly very incompatable with my knowledge of Quran, ( and if true can even be seen as (name removed by moderator)uning the doctrinal integrity of those Catholics who made such a statement). I really don’t think that is what those Church statements are ‘saying’, but rather they appear to be merely trying to recognize the Muslim’s INCOMPLETE concept of the True God.)
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Alisa
Guest
I believe God has manifested Himself to all human beings at every time. Who are we to say Allah is not “God”?
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
I agree with you, Allah though a proper name of God in Arabic yet it was in use in the Arabian Peninsula centuries before the advent of Islam/Muhammad. The Arabic speaking Christians understand it, that is why in the Arabic Bible, Allah is frequently used, anybody knowing a little Arabic could witness it by reading it. I use GodAllahYHWH to denote that it is not different persons but the first is in English, the second in Arabic and the third in Hebrew while it means the same personality the Creator of us all.I think it does not hurt anybody. I respect Christian faith and I love the Christians.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a peaceful faith in Islam
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Gabriel_Francis
Guest
Not in the Church! How about letting them live in an other building instead? And covering up Mary so as not to offend the guests, is unacceptable. If the bishops don’t know who they are and don’t like who they are, they should find another job.
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GreenJeans
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Both Jews and Muslims worship the God who Abraham dealt with. Both groups trace their ancestory to Abraham and acknowledge the god of Abraham. Neither says God is a trinity. So, do Christians worship the same god of Abraham? It appears they do.
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cor
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That is what the word means today but etymologically some say it originated from a moon god cult:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubal#Hubal_and_Allah
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Milliardo
Guest
It’s not bizarre; it’s like one sees Bush to be a good President while another sees him to be bad. Both are talking of the same President from different perspectives. It’s the same between Christianity and Islam-both worship the same God, but have different views as to what the nature of God is.
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paarsurrey
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Hi
I use the word GodAllahYHWH, three words connected together to form one word, simply to denote that they convey the same ONEGOD . God is the English words spoken and understood the world over. Allah is its equivalent in Arabic, used by Christians and Mulims alike, those who don’t know this fact , please, read the Arabic Bible using it so often. The word Allah predates Islam and is not coined by Muhammad, though Muslim believe with reasons that this is the proper name of God.I know Jews who don’t have any objection that Allah and YHWH denote one person. YHWH is the Hebrew letters, nobody exactly knows its exact pronunciation , some say it is Jehovah.
Difference did crop up when Paul invented Trinity, this is my opinion.
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I am an Ahmadi
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