Allah's promise to Jews the Land of Israel

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BlestOne said:
Meedo… I hope you like that lecture series… I think it will show you the Christian perspective of the covenantal relationship of God to his people. I believe the verse from the OT that you were requesting starts in Genesis Chapter 21 and goes on through Genesis chapter 24… but I could be wrong.

One thing I will explain… although God’s first covenants were to the Jews… after Jesus, salvation was opened to all through Jesus’s new covenant as he fulfilled the old covenant. That basically means that all of us have access to salvation even though we were not of the blood lines of the 12 tribes of Israel.
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Thank you,

I am listening to it right now . It is interesting. Bu It is very long i cant finish it today.

thank you for the comment about salvation. nevertheless islam already beleives that salvation had a broader circle than the ligislation of the major prophets . ( Moses , Jesus, Muhammed)

There was a man pre the time of muhammed in arabia that he admonished the meccan arabs for worshipping gods beside Allah and corrupting the faith of their forefather Ishmael. The prophet Muhammed. said that this man will be summoned on judgement day as a nation on his own , in honoring his call monothiesm to the God of Abraham in a time where arabia had not prophets or messengers since Ishmael to Muhammed.

Muslims also believe that God sent prophets to many nations tat we don’t know about. there are also many peophets with many believers before the time of abraham .

best regards thank you for bieng respectable and thank you for your link ,

meedo
 
ralphinal said:
Meedo,
Thank you for that answer. However, you did not really answer the question.

In the Bible, God creates a covenant with Noah first, then Abraham, then the Children of Isreal, and then with David.

Does Islam explain what a covenant is and how it is different than a contract?
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probably yes, but i personally don’t know what is the explanation . What is the explanation from a Christian point of view?

My udnerstanding of a covenant is that it is a promise.
 
meedo said:
probably yes, but i personally don’t know what is the explanation . What is the explanation from a Christian point of view?

My udnerstanding of a covenant is that it is a promise.
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It is more than that.

First, a promise is an oath taken upon one’s word that something will be done. For example, I can promise that I will paint your house. If I do not do it, there are no real reprocussions, other than you not being happy with me.

A contract is an agreement for an exchange of goods or services. For example, we can have a contract where you will pay me $1,000 to paint your house. If I do not paint your house, you do not pay me. If I do paint your house and you decide not to pay me, I have legal recourse.

An oath is a promise that is not taken on one’s own word but in the name of God or on something holy. Failure to comply with this promise is to call judgement upon your self. If I take an oath to paint your house (sware to God), and I do not do it, it is a very serious sin.

A covenant is the oath form of a contract. It is an agreement for an exchange of something taken in the eyes of God. Unlike a contract, the failure of one party to perform does not release the other from the deal. Also, there is no way to go back and release yourself from it, unless the other party and God allows for it.

Now, when God tells Abraham that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars in the sky, it is a covenant. No matter what Abraham does, God will uphold his end. Likewise, when God tells the Isrealites that they will be his people and He will be their God, and that he will free them from slavery and lead them to the promised land, it does not matter what Isreal does. God always keeps his end of the deal. Now, he may not do it in the time-table that they thought, for example, he let the generation from Egypt die before they reached Isreal, but he still kept his end of it.

Covenant theology is very interesting. From the quotes that you provided, I do not see it existing in Islam. It is clearly in the Bible. I wonder why it is not in the Qur’an.
 
ralphinal said:
It is more than that.

First, a promise is an oath taken upon one’s word that something will be done. For example, I can promise that I will paint your house. If I do not do it, there are no real reprocussions, other than you not being happy with me.

A contract is an agreement for an exchange of goods or services. For example, we can have a contract where you will pay me $1,000 to paint your house. If I do not paint your house, you do not pay me. If I do paint your house and you decide not to pay me, I have legal recourse.

An oath is a promise that is not taken on one’s own word but in the name of God or on something holy. Failure to comply with this promise is to call judgement upon your self. If I take an oath to paint your house (sware to God), and I do not do it, it is a very serious sin.

A covenant is the oath form of a contract. It is an agreement for an exchange of something taken in the eyes of God. Unlike a contract, the failure of one party to perform does not release the other from the deal. Also, there is no way to go back and release yourself from it, unless the other party and God allows for it.

Now, when God tells Abraham that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars in the sky, it is a covenant. No matter what Abraham does, God will uphold his end. Likewise, when God tells the Isrealites that they will be his people and He will be their God, and that he will free them from slavery and lead them to the promised land, it does not matter what Isreal does. God always keeps his end of the deal. Now, he may not do it in the time-table that they thought, for example, he let the generation from Egypt die before they reached Isreal, but he still kept his end of it.

Covenant theology is very interesting. From the quotes that you provided, I do not see it existing in Islam. It is clearly in the Bible. I wonder why it is not in the Qur’an.
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This is a very good description of the differences between contract, covenant, and promise… very nicely done 👍
 
ralphinal said:
It is more than that.

First, a promise is an oath taken upon one’s word that something will be done. For example, I can promise that I will paint your house. If I do not do it, there are no real reprocussions, other than you not being happy with me.

A contract is an agreement for an exchange of goods or services. For example, we can have a contract where you will pay me $1,000 to paint your house. If I do not paint your house, you do not pay me. If I do paint your house and you decide not to pay me, I have legal recourse.

An oath is a promise that is not taken on one’s own word but in the name of God or on something holy. Failure to comply with this promise is to call judgement upon your self. If I take an oath to paint your house (sware to God), and I do not do it, it is a very serious sin.

A covenant is the oath form of a contract. It is an agreement for an exchange of something taken in the eyes of God. Unlike a contract, the failure of one party to perform does not release the other from the deal. Also, there is no way to go back and release yourself from it, unless the other party and God allows for it.

Now, when God tells Abraham that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars in the sky, it is a covenant. No matter what Abraham does, God will uphold his end. Likewise, when God tells the Isrealites that they will be his people and He will be their God, and that he will free them from slavery and lead them to the promised land, it does not matter what Isreal does. God always keeps his end of the deal. Now, he may not do it in the time-table that they thought, for example, he let the generation from Egypt die before they reached Isreal, but he still kept his end of it.

Covenant theology is very interesting. From the quotes that you provided, I do not see it existing in Islam. It is clearly in the Bible. I wonder why it is not in the Qur’an.
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I udnerstand your poin. and i would even add that a promise is enough in his case for the part where there is a demand from the people of Israel is a bit irrelevant here .

The question is that what is implicit in the covenant . Asa you said forexample that some people died before reaching the holy land , does that mean that God broke the covenant ? No it does it mean that the covenant shouldnt be stretched beyound it is meaning.

a simple exception is the incident of the calv . was teh God of Abraham the god of teh calv worshippers? No , did God break the covenant by still bieng their God ? No … bu the covennant has implicit terms should be understood in the general relation between God and his people in all time.

God has promissed the israelites to send them to the Holy land . He did . Does it mean that he will keep them there foreever? Does it mean that other nations wont be Gods people and even more obedient to God than them ? No .

The question is what exactly is the covenant hat God has given? and what does it imply ?

That is why the Quran disclaimed he promise to abraham to make him understand that when God gives promisses o a believing nation he knows that this promise won’t be for all of it as there are unbelievers . This is one of the exa,mples of how not to stretch a covenant . Indeed the jews were exiled many many times by punishments from God .

but i have to go to sleep now . See u tom.

best regards,

meedo
 
meedo said:
I udnerstand your poin. and i would even add that a promise is enough in his case for the part where there is a demand from the people of Israel is a bit irrelevant here .

The question is that what is implicit in the covenant . Asa you said forexample that some people died before reaching the holy land , does that mean that God broke the covenant ? No it does it mean that the covenant shouldnt be stretched beyound it is meaning.

a simple exception is the incident of the calv . was teh God of Abraham the god of teh calv worshippers? No , did God break the covenant by still bieng their God ? No … bu the covennant has implicit terms should be understood in the general relation between God and his people in all time.

God has promissed the israelites to send them to the Holy land . He did . Does it mean that he will keep them there foreever? Does it mean that other nations wont be Gods people and even more obedient to God than them ? No .

The question is what exactly is the covenant hat God has given? and what does it imply ?

That is why the Quran disclaimed he promise to abraham to make him understand that when God gives promisses o a believing nation he knows that this promise won’t be for all of it as there are unbelievers . This is one of the exa,mples of how not to stretch a covenant . Indeed the jews were exiled many many times by punishments from God .

but i have to go to sleep now . See u tom.

best regards,

meedo
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Sleep well. I will answer you later so that you may rest
 
R_not said:
Yeah, I really got a lot from your note. I cut/pasted it for reference!
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The next part has to do with this conversation.

The first Covenant in the bible is God telling Adam and Eve that they are banned from the Garden, but their offspring will yeild a savior that will put right what they put wrong. Note that there is NOTHING that Adam and Eve are required to do.

The next is God telling Noah that he will never again use water to destroy the earth. Again, it is one sided.

Third, God promises Abraham that he will be the father of the multitude. Further, they will dwell in what is now Isreal.

Fourth, God renews his Covenant with Abraham’s son Isaac.

Fifth, GOd enters the covenant with Isreal. Same basic one as with Abraham and Isaac.

Sixth, God enters the covenant with Moses. Note that this one is not specifically about the promised land. that was already in the cards, so to speak. This one includes the part where Isreal are God’s people and he is their God. So long as they uphold their end, God will never allow them to fail. Should they ignore God, they will lose only until such time as they return to him. This is shown to be the case all through the OT. Again, the failure on the Part of the Jews DOES NOT EVER END THE COVENANT. God is still bound by it as he chose to be and they are always bound to it

The last OT covenant was made to David. It is to be through his line that the Messiah comes. As with the other ones, DAvid’s failures do not end the deal with God.
 
Lev23 said:
I know, what a mess. Islam as of now calls the place Palestine.
🤷
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I know, it’s a sick joke, very sick joke. Named Syria-Palestina by the Romans to deny the Jews their homeland, after the ancient (and at that stage no longer existent) enemies of the Jews, the Philistines.

And we have contributed to this myth of the “Palestinian” by keeping the non-factural reference for centuries.
 
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Salaam/peace
Nicolas said:
… [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]."
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???

Surah 17. Isra’, The Night Journey, Children Of Israel
  1. We gave Moses the Book, and made it a Guide to the Children of Israel, (commanding): “Take not other than Me as Disposer of (your) affairs.”
  2. O ye that are sprung from those whom We carried (in the Ark) with Noah! Verily he was a devotee most grateful.
  3. And We gave (Clear) Warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!
  4. When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our servants given to terrible warfare: They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.
…104. And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, “Dwell securely in the land (of promise)”: but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.

islamicity.com/MOSQUE/QURAN/17.htm

related links: Palestine: Is It the Jews’ Promised Land?

“We have written in the Scripture, after the Reminder: **My righteous slaves will inherit the earth.” **(Al-Anbiya’: 105)"

islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545176

The Jews and the Promised Land

…is the promise that Allah has given the people of Israel control over the holy land an absolute one? In other words, does the promise remain with their disobedience before the Messengers of Allah and refusal to submit to Almighty Allah?

The simple answer to this question could be found in the verse that reads: “My covenant includeth not wrongdoers.‏” (Al-Baqarah: 124)

islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544010

The Biblical Roots of the Palestinian Problem

readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1203757723715&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam%2FAskAboutIslamE%2FAskAboutIslamE
 
Nicolas said:
templemount.org/quranland.html
your comments
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Your “Shaykh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi” quoting:

“The Qur’an recognizes the Land of Israel as the heritage of the Jews and it explains that, before the Last Judgment, Jews will return to dwell there. This prophecy has already been fulfilled.”

That is completely wrong interpretation of the verse “Quran 17:104”, the authentic commentary by all the four authentic commentators don’t interpret that as he did!

Here are two commentaries about that:

وقلنا من بعده لبني إسرائيل اسكنوا الأرض فإذا جاء وعد الآخرة جئنا بكم لفيفا

تفسير الطبري:
يقول : فإذا جاءت الساعة , وهي وعد الآخرة , جئنا بكم لفيفا : يقول : حشرناكم من قبوركم إلى موقف القيامة لفيفا : أي مختلطين قد التف بعضكم على بعض , لا تتعارفون , ولا ينحاز أحد منكم إلى قبيلته وحيه

تفسير القرطبي:
جِئْنَا بِكُمْ لَفِيفًا
أي من قبوركم مختلطين من كل موضع , قد اختلط المؤمن بالكافر لا يتعارفون ولا ينحاز أحد منكم إلى قبيلته وحيه .

​
Translating that to English, the above two commentators say that “When the Judgement day comes, we will resurrect you from your graves and gather you in Israel”, that means Allah will gather the Jews on the judgement day NOT BEFORE THAT.

P.S., That is the problem with Quran, you won’t understand it unless you are fluent in Arabic, else you will be deceived and deceive others.
 
Muslim_Woman said:
http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Salaam/peace

???

Surah 17. Isra’, The Night Journey, Children Of Israel
  1. We gave Moses the Book, and made it a Guide to the Children of Israel, (commanding): “Take not other than Me as Disposer of (your) affairs.”
  2. O ye that are sprung from those whom We carried (in the Ark) with Noah! Verily he was a devotee most grateful.
  3. And We gave (Clear) Warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!
  4. When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our servants given to terrible warfare: They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.
…104. And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, “Dwell securely in the land (of promise)”: but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.

islamicity.com/MOSQUE/QURAN/17.htm

related links: Palestine: Is It the Jews’ Promised Land?

“We have written in the Scripture, after the Reminder: **My righteous slaves will inherit the earth.” **(Al-Anbiya’: 105)"

islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545176

The Jews and the Promised Land

…is the promise that Allah has given the people of Israel control over the holy land an absolute one? In other words, does the promise remain with their disobedience before the Messengers of Allah and refusal to submit to Almighty Allah?

The simple answer to this question could be found in the verse that reads: “My covenant includeth not wrongdoers.‏” (Al-Baqarah: 124)

islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544010

The Biblical Roots of the Palestinian Problem

readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1203757723715&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam%2FAskAboutIslamE%2FAskAboutIslamE
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So, according to the Qur’an, God is saying that he LIED to the Jews?
 
ralphinal said:
So, according to the Qur’an, God is saying that he LIED to the Jews?
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You bring up an interesting question. In the koran - it says that allah lies all the time. It is no wonder its adherents have no problem lying. (one reason why islam is not connected in any way to Judaism or Christianity - because that is only one diversion from the previous scriptures)

Some things from the koran about allah being a liar:
  • God a “plotter”, deceiver → 8:30
  • Intentionally misguiding those whom he pleases to->14:4
  • Willfully misguiding some-> 16:93
  • God causes human to err-> 4:143 7:178
  • God deceiving human-> 4:142
This is certainly not the God of Israel! And this is just one example of why allah is not god, mohammed is not a prophet, or islam is a true religion from Judaism or Christianity - it is not ‘Abrahamic’ at all. They are the ones that come up with that term and we fall into their trap by repeating it without knowing islam. Well, I don’t fall into that trap anymore!
 
Most of the Covenants in the Bible were between God and ONE man. Since we know that these men were sinners, then God DOES include wrong doers in his covenants. The largest OT one is the one between GOd and the Children of Isreal. Again, he does include sinners in that bunch.

Besides, which GOd do you want: one that WANTS to break his word because you are a sinner or one that WANTS you to return and he leaves the door open and the light on?
 
Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]."

[Qur’an, chapter 17:100-104]

meedo, Do you still believe that Allah has changed his promise ??
 
Here are some different translations

YUSUFALI: And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, “Dwell securely in the land (of promise)”: but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.
PICKTHAL: And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.

**ASAD **And after that We said unto the children of Israel: "Dwell now securely on earth - but [remember that] when the promise of the Last Day shall come to pass, We will bring you forth as [parts of] a motley crowd!

Allah ordered the children of Israel to [Dwell now] and also informed them that they will be gathered in Israel in the last days…

This verse cannot mean the gathering of Jews after the Resurrection or why only Children of Israel were mentioned ,when all humans will be gathered in the Judgment day and not just Jews… …
 
ralphinal said:
So, according to the Qur’an, God is saying that he LIED to the Jews?
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Let me respond to this even though I am not Islamic. My understanding from reading many books on Islam is that they had to change the definition of God as the Quran is not accurate. The Quran contradicts itself in many areas. As such Muslim’s have to have a different interpretation of God. Christian’s God is one that is outside of time and as such is all knowing. Muslim’s have had to allow God to change his mind because the Quran has many conflicts within. Apologist for Muslims have a very difficult time explaining how an all powerful God would change his mind. My understanding is most Muslims do not understand the huge implication this creates by limiting God and his majesty.

The Quran also is in fact in error on many factual points. This strikes at the core of the Muslim religion as the Quran can not be in error. It is the word of God and as such can not be in error. Note for other conflicts God changed his mind. For factual issues God can not change his mind. Muslim’s generally tend to believe that Christians and Jews changed the Bible and history to refute Muhammed. The Quaran is full of errors. Such as confusing Moses’ and Christ’s relative. The Exodus is another which has already been discussed and many others. This is one of the many reasons that Christians and Jews are infidels.

Muslims have also created the concept of Muhammed having dreams fo fix historical errors. Even though the Quran does not state that Muhammed was in a dream it is the only way Muslim apologist make many stories work. One has to remember that Muhammed was surrounded by apostate Christians. What he learned from these apostates were Biblical errors. As such he brought these errors into his doctrine without knowing that he was not receiving the true word of God.

For one to argue that God is lieing does not work with Muslim’s. They have a completely different interpretation of God than we do. I used to believe pointing out errors to them would show them the way. As I read more I have found that they have created great many myths to support the weaknesses of their religion. Two of the biggest is God changing his mind and the other is the infidel Christians and Jews changing of history to refute their prophet Muhammed.
 
R_not said:
You bring up an interesting question. In the koran - it says that allah lies all the time. It is no wonder its adherents have no problem lying. (one reason why islam is not connected in any way to Judaism or Christianity - because that is only one diversion from the previous scriptures)

Some things from the koran about allah being a liar:
  • God a “plotter”, deceiver → 8:30
  • Intentionally misguiding those whom he pleases to->14:4
  • Willfully misguiding some-> 16:93
  • God causes human to err-> 4:143 7:178
  • God deceiving human-> 4:142
This is certainly not the God of Israel! And this is just one example of why allah is not god, mohammed is not a prophet, or islam is a true religion from Judaism or Christianity - it is not ‘Abrahamic’ at all. They are the ones that come up with that term and we fall into their trap by repeating it without knowing islam. Well, I don’t fall into that trap anymore!
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They do not believe God is a liar. There belief is not at all like ours. They do not believe in a fartherly God that is all loving. Their relation between God and them is one of Master/slave. God can do as he wishes and man is to obey. Their God can show mercy; however, it is not required. As I stated they believe God can change his mind. This eliminates many contradictions we would take as lies. Their God is also based upon a double predestination theory. Their God does create beings with the full intent of them going to Hell. They also believe only Muslim’s will go to heaven. As God created beings with the intent of them going to Hell and only Muslim’s can go to heaven they find no error in mistreating non-muslims. (Different parts of the Quran conflict in this area. The older ones when Muhammed was trying to sway Christians and Jews make statements to not hurt non-Muslims. After his rejection, by Christian and Jews, most verses state that we should be killed.) This is why they have no issue with killing or enslaving Christians or Jews. We are all going to Hell anyway.

To reinforce their concept of their relationship with God one needs to understand their thoughts on heaven. For them heaven is a location that they enjoy worldly benefits yet God is not there. God is not part of their heaven as he is above man. Our God will be in heaven with us.

I would recommend people read Daniel Ali’s “Inside Islam: A Guide for Catholics” It is a very easy read and explains much of the differences between Christians and Islam. Daniel Ali is a former Islamic believer that has consulted for the United States.
 
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