Allah's promise to Jews the Land of Israel

[PerryJ]

Here are some different translations

YUSUFALI: And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, “Dwell securely in the land (of promise)”: but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.
PICKTHAL: And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.

**ASAD **And after that We said unto the children of Israel: "Dwell now securely on earth - but [remember that] when the promise of the Last Day shall come to pass, We will bring you forth as [parts of] a motley crowd!

Allah ordered the children of Israel to [Dwell now] and also informed them that they will be gathered in Israel in the last days…

This verse cannot mean the gathering of Jews after the Resurrection or why only Children of Israel were mentioned ,when all humans will be gathered in the Judgment day and not just Jews… …

Are these translations of the Quran? If so I was under the belief that translations are allowed; however, one must read it in Arabic to truly understand it. One is not to change God’s word as it should only be read in Arabic.

 

[PerryJ]

Here are some different translations

YUSUFALI: And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, “Dwell securely in the land (of promise)”: but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.
PICKTHAL: And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.

**ASAD **And after that We said unto the children of Israel: "Dwell now securely on earth - but [remember that] when the promise of the Last Day shall come to pass, We will bring you forth as [parts of] a motley crowd!

Allah ordered the children of Israel to [Dwell now] and also informed them that they will be gathered in Israel in the last days…

This verse cannot mean the gathering of Jews after the Resurrection or why only Children of Israel were mentioned ,when all humans will be gathered in the Judgment day and not just Jews… …

Does not the Quran state that Allah will give every Muslim a Christian or a Jew to kill so they can make it into heaven?

 

[meedo]

Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]."

[Qur’an, chapter 17:100-104]

meedo, Do you still believe that Allah has changed his promise ??

Allah has not changed his promise. And the verse doesnt say what you kept putting between brackets up there . I already gave you what the evrse say .

 

[Jay53]

PerryJ;4722486]They do not believe God is a liar. There belief is not at all like ours. They do not believe in a fartherly God that is all loving. Their relation between God and them is one of Master/slave. God can do as he wishes and man is to obey. Their God can show mercy; however, it is not required. As I stated they believe God can change his mind. This eliminates many contradictions we would take as lies. Their God is also based upon a double predestination theory. Their God does create beings with the full intent of them going to Hell. They also believe only Muslim’s will go to heaven. As God created beings with the intent of them going to Hell and only Muslim’s can go to heaven they find no error in mistreating non-muslims. (Different parts of the Quran conflict in this area. The older ones when Muhammed was trying to sway Christians and Jews make statements to not hurt non-Muslims. After his rejection, by Christian and Jews, most verses state that we should be killed.) This is why they have no issue with killing or enslaving Christians or Jews. We are all going to Hell anyway.

Seriously? They believe we’re all going to hell? (I don’t recall if I’ve ever seen that stated directly here. I would love to see the Muslim posters’ response.

(Off topic, but Muslims believing they are the only ones going to heaven reminds me of the Catholic joke where St. Peter tells the Protestants to tiptoe past certain “rooms” and when they ask why he tells them “Those are the Catholics and they think they’re the only ones here!” BTW, for everyone, Catholics don’t really believe that! )

I would recommend people read Daniel Ali’s “Inside Islam: A Guide for Catholics” It is a very easy read and explains much of the differences between Christians and Islam. Daniel Ali is a former Islamic believer that has consulted for the United States.

Thank you for the book recommendation. I love to read and will check it out!

 

[meedo]

Here are some different translations

Allah ordered the children of Israel to [Dwell now] and also informed them that they will be gathered in Israel in the last days…

This verse cannot mean the gathering of Jews after the Resurrection or why only Children of Israel were mentioned ,when all humans will be gathered in the Judgment day and not just Jews… …

No . Allah ordered them to enter the land now. And informed them that he will bring them and other nations togeather on judgement day fopr the account.

This verse is in he course ofa discussion with teh children of israel , that is why the emphasis is on them . But as for the act of gathering the nations fior the account, it will be them and others.

I have already answered ýour post and showed you that teh interprepation that you have is not correct from any islamic point of view .

 

[meedo]

Let me respond to this even though I am not Islamic. My understanding from reading many books on Islam is that they had to change the definition of God as the Quran is not accurate. The Quran contradicts itself in many areas. As such Muslim’s have to have a different interpretation of God. Christian’s God is one that is outside of time and as such is all knowing. Muslim’s have had to allow God to change his mind because the Quran has many conflicts within. Apologist for Muslims have a very difficult time explaining how an all powerful God would change his mind. My understanding is most Muslims do not understand the huge implication this creates by limiting God and his majesty.

The Quran also is in fact in error on many factual points. This strikes at the core of the Muslim religion as the Quran can not be in error. It is the word of God and as such can not be in error. Note for other conflicts God changed his mind. For factual issues God can not change his mind. Muslim’s generally tend to believe that Christians and Jews changed the Bible and history to refute Muhammed. The Quaran is full of errors. Such as confusing Moses’ and Christ’s relative. The Exodus is another which has already been discussed and many others. This is one of the many reasons that Christians and Jews are infidels.

Muslims have also created the concept of Muhammed having dreams fo fix historical errors. Even though the Quran does not state that Muhammed was in a dream it is the only way Muslim apologist make many stories work. One has to remember that Muhammed was surrounded by apostate Christians. What he learned from these apostates were Biblical errors. As such he brought these errors into his doctrine without knowing that he was not receiving the true word of God.

For one to argue that God is lieing does not work with Muslim’s. They have a completely different interpretation of God than we do. I used to believe pointing out errors to them would show them the way. As I read more I have found that they have created great many myths to support the weaknesses of their religion. Two of the biggest is God changing his mind and the other is the infidel Christians and Jews changing of history to refute their prophet Muhammed.

The two errors you attribute to muslims are not rue

1- First , muslims never say god changes his mind. It is you who misunderstood what god has promissed in the first place.

2- Second Muslims dont say taht jews and Christians have changed their books specifically to refute muhammed. We say that these books are not 100% what God has said . and that human human hands have added or taken away from it over teh time. For various reasons including error . Muhammed has nothing to do with this sad truth.

 

[PerryJ]

The two errors you attribute to muslims are not rue

1- First , muslims never say god changes his mind. It is you who misunderstood what god has promissed in the first place.

2- Second Muslims dont say taht jews and Christians have changed their books specifically to refute muhammed. We say that these books are not 100% what God has said . and that human human hands have added or taken away from it over teh time. For various reasons including error . Muhammed has nothing to do with this sad truth.

Let us start by using what I believe the term Muslims use “nullification”. Below is a post from the book I mentioned. Tell me if you agree or not.

Page 71 "The Muslim circumvents the potential negative impacts of self-contradictory verses in the Koran by insisiting that Allah simply does not have to be consistent. In fact, consistency would be a limitation of His absolute freedom and power. A Muslim will say "Allah is Divine, and can say and do whatever He likes. It does not matter that what He says seems not to make sense to us: we are only human and He is God. If Allah wishes to nullify what He said at an earlier time, He has a right to do so. He can deny His previous word in order to improve or change whatever He pleases. Even on a whim, Allah can Change His mind, and say something completely opposite to His earlier word.

Do you agree Allah has nullified earlier verses or not?

If you say “no” to this question I will be able to present many conflicting verse and historical errors and as such you would need to be able to explain these items.

 

[meedo]

Let us start by using what I believe the term Muslims use “nullification”. Below is a post from the book I mentioned. Tell me if you agree or not.

Page 71 "The Muslim circumvents the potential negative impacts of self-contradictory verses in the Koran by insisiting that Allah simply does not have to be consistent. In fact, consistency would be a limitation of His absolute freedom and power. A Muslim will say "Allah is Divine, and can say and do whatever He likes. It does not matter that what He says seems not to make sense to us: we are only human and He is God. If Allah wishes to nullify what He said at an earlier time, He has a right to do so. He can deny His previous word in order to improve or change whatever He pleases. Even on a whim, Allah can Change His mind, and say something completely opposite to His earlier word.

Do you agree Allah has nullified earlier verses or not?

If you say “no” to this question I will be able to present many conflicting verse and historical errors and as such you would need to be able to explain these items.

1- God is consistent. However his creations aren’t .

For example in the Old testament ,The jews for example had an order from God to enter the land of Israel .

they didn’t beacuse they were scared of its inhabitants . God consequently made them wander in the desert for 40 years .

Even though the order to enter the land of Israel was not associated with the order to wander in the desert , eventually came a new ordeer to wonder in the desert first .

Now is that consistent? or not?

 

[PerryJ]

1- God is consistent. However his creations aren’t .

For example in the Old testament ,The jews for example had an order from God to enter the land of Israel .

they didn’t beacuse they were scared of its inhabitants . God consequently made them wander in the desert for 40 years .

Even though the order to enter the land of Israel was not associated with the order to wander in the desert , eventually came a new ordeer to wonder in the desert first .

Now is that consistent? or not?

Consistent is a vague word.

Lets take it step further. Is the Koran the word of God? Is it free of error or contradictions?

 

[meedo]

Consistent is a vague word.

Lets take it step further. Is the Koran the word of God? Is it free of error or contradictions?

If it is vague , then why do you ask me using this word?

yes teh Quran is Gods word and it is free of error and contradictions.

 

[PerryJ]

If it is vague , then why do you ask me using this word?

yes teh Quran is Gods word and it is free of error and contradictions.

I want to make sure we are very clear on the concept that the Koran is totally free from error.

Let is start with just a few factual errors.

Does not the Koran claim that Alexander the Great was Muslim? According to the Quran (Surah 18:89-98) Alexander the Great was a devout Muslim and lived to a ripe old age. Historical records however show that Alexander the Great died young at 33 years of age (356 - 323 B.C.), and believed he himself was divine, forcing others to recognize him as such. In India on the Hyphasis River (now Beas) Alexander erected twelve altars to twelve Olympian gods. He often consulted Greek Gods for divinination. Is Alexander the Great that lived hundred of years before Muhammed a Muslim? Can you explain this historical error?

In Sura 20:90 does not the Sura state that a Samaritan helped the Jews create the Golden Calf? Yet the Samarian civilization did not exist yet. Can you explain this historical error?

 

[meedo]

I want to make sure we are very clear on the concept that the Koran is totally free from error.

Let is start with just a few factual errors.

Does not the Koran claim that Alexander the Great was Muslim? According to the Quran (Surah 18:89-98) Alexander the Great was a devout Muslim and lived to a ripe old age. Historical records however show that Alexander the Great died young at 33 years of age (356 - 323 B.C.), and believed he himself was divine, forcing others to recognize him as such. In India on the Hyphasis River (now Beas) Alexander erected twelve altars to twelve Olympian gods. He often consulted Greek Gods for divinination. Is Alexander the Great that lived hundred of years before Muhammed a Muslim? Can you explain this historical error?

1-No the Quran doesnt state that . The Quran states that a man named Dthu Al Qarnain was a believing man who roamed the earth . he was powerful . No where does teh Quran mention anything about Alexander the great .

2- The Quran mentions a man named Al Sameri. No where does the Quran nor Islam establish a link between this man and any later people.

 

[PerryJ]

If it is vague , then why do you ask me using this word?

yes teh Quran is Gods word and it is free of error and contradictions.

This next is not necessarily a contradiction; however, it needs some explanation.

Believers, wine and games of chance … are abominations devised by Satan Sura 5:90

This is the paradise which the righteous have been promised. Therein shall flow…rivers of wine delectable to those that drink it. Sura 47:15

Please explain how something created by Satan is allowed into heaven as a reward for man. Especially since Allah stated that it is an abomination. Does Allah let evil into Heaven?

 

[PerryJ]

1-No the Quran doesnt state that . The Quran states that a man named Dthu Al Qarnain was a believing man who roamed the earth . he was powerful . No where does teh Quran mention anything about Alexander the great .

2- The Quran mentions a man named Al Sameri. No where does the Quran nor Islam establish a link between this man and any later people.

Really, according to Daniel Ali a former Muslim he is quoted as stating that “the story of Zul-qarmain in Sura 18:89 - 98, whom Muslim exegetes both ancient and modern identify as Alexander.”

I will let this go with the notion that at least some expert Muslim exegets believe it does refer to Alexander.

Can you explain the timing problem with a Samarian helping to create the Golden Calf when their civilization did not exist? Are you stating that Al Sameri was not a Samaritan?

 

[PerryJ]

If it is vague , then why do you ask me using this word?

yes teh Quran is Gods word and it is free of error and contradictions.

If God does not change and there are no errors can you explain the following verses

“If We (Allah) abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten, We will replace it by a better one or one similar” Sura 2:106

How can an all knowing God improve a verse? Should there not just be one?

"When We change one verse for another they say, “You are an imposter. Indeed most of them have no knowledge” Sura 16:101

How does this fit with the notion that Allah does not change his mind? Why would he change a verse if he does not change his mind?

“Allah abrogates and confirms what He please” Sura 13:39

If Allah does not change his mind why would he need to abbrogate anything? If there is no error why change it?

I am also curious why in the Koran it uses the plural for Allah. If there is one God why is the plural form of Allah used?

 

[meedo]

Really, according to Daniel Ali a former Muslim he is quoted as stating that “the story of Zul-qarmain in Sura 18:89 - 98, whom Muslim exegetes both ancient and modern identify as Alexander.”

I will let this go with the notion that at least some expert Muslim exegets believe it does refer to Alexander.

Can you explain the timing problem with a Samarian helping to create the Golden Calf when their civilization did not exist? Are you stating that Al Sameri was not a Samaritan?

Muslim exegets have thousands of opinions , and some of hem are just ‘‘what ifs’’ . The final say is tha we don’t know who this man was .

Yes i am stating that Al sameri was not a samaritan. He was a man of that name at the time of moses.

oh and please don’t let anything go for teh sake of me lol

 

[meedo]

If God does not change and there are no errors can you explain the following verses

“If We (Allah) abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten, We will replace it by a better one or one similar” Sura 2:106

How can an all knowing God improve a verse? Should there not just be one?

"When We change one verse for another they say, “You are an imposter. Indeed most of them have no knowledge” Sura 16:101

How does this fit with the notion that Allah does not change his mind? Why would he change a verse if he does not change his mind?

“Allah abrogates and confirms what He please” Sura 13:39

If Allah does not change his mind why would he need to abbrogate anything? If there is no error why change it?

I am also curious why in the Koran it uses the plural for Allah. If there is one God why is the plural form of Allah used?

A clear case of that is in the verses regarding wine and alcohol. there are verses in the Quran tha are no more valid as a verdict on wine and alcohol.

The gradual prohibition came in 3 verses in the following order:

Surah 2:219

They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say: What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder

Then…

Surah 4:43

O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say…

Then…

Surah 5:90

O ye who believe ! wine and the game of chance and idols and divining arrows are only the abomination of Satan’s handiwork. So shun each one of them that you may prosper.

That is a clear case on how God changed his verdicts because of the nature of teh people he is giving the verses to.

God didn’t change his mind. he was gradual because of US and he would stipulate verdicts for situations ina different way . ’

That is niether a contradiction nor God changing his mind.

 

[meedo]

I am also curious why in the Koran it uses the plural for Allah. If there is one God why is the plural form of Allah used?

beacsue it is more majestic to use the plural.

 

[PerryJ]

beacsue it is more majestic to use the plural.

It is God’s word not mans. How does God become more majestic by stating he is plural when in fact he is not. Is this not an error. One can not be more majestic than God and God can not be more than one.

 

[meedo]

The next part has to do with this conversation.

Again, the failure on the Part of the Jews DOES NOT EVER END THE COVENANT. God is still bound by it as he chose to be and they are always bound to it

The last OT covenant was made to David. It is to be through his line that the Messiah comes. As with the other ones, DAvid’s failures do not end the deal with God.

Hello ralph,

hope you had some rest of this forum,

in regards to above, it seems then that Gods agreements was not covenants then .

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

3then the LORD your God will (A)restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and (B)will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has (C)scattered you.

4"If your outcasts are at the ends of the earth, (D)from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back.

5"(E)The LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and (F)multiply you more than your fathers.

6"Moreover (G)the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, (H)to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

7"(I)The LORD your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you.

8"And you shall again obey the LORD, and observe all His commandments which I command you today.

9"(J)Then the LORD your God will prosper you abundantly in all the work of your hand, in the offspring of your body and in the offspring of your cattle and in the produce of your ground, for (K)the LORD will again rejoice over you for good, just as He rejoiced over your fathers;

** 10if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which (L)are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God (M)with all your heart and soul. **

it is very clear to me and based on your definition of a covenant, that God did not enter into a covenant. And he cklearly conditioned the promises he gives by a counterparty action. which is

10if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which (L)are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God (M)with all your heart and soul

Thus if the people of Israel rejects a prophet of God , this ‘’ agreement is broken’’

Thus from Christian poit of view and based on the bible , The Isralites after Jesus rejection has no religious or devine claim o the Holy land .

best regards,