Alleged Desecration of Quran

[cestusdei]

Lumen,
The Catholic Church does not agree with you. We are not a pacifist faith. We do believe in just wars. WWII was manifestly a just one. I would argue so is the one on terrorism. The Church also allows for the police power of the state to deter wrongdoers. Even the necessity of killing them justly. You are in the wrong Church if you want to argue that we should not respond to or stop evil by licit means.

It is astonishing that you claim the moral high ground by justifying terrorism and genocide. Yes, that is what you are doing. Certainly we don’t like war, but this one was thrust upon us. If you can’t condemn Hitler or recognize that his degree of sin was far more vast then that of the allies then you really have a problem. All people are sinners, but some are worse sinners then others. I may sin, but I haven’t killed 6 million people either. Catholics see the difference and so should you. Unfortunately you, like so many, are being sympathetic to terrorists in a odd attempt to be “fair”. It makes you one of their allies and a gives them aid and comfort. It increases the chance they will continue to strike because they think we will surrender and do what they want. You make it more likely that innocent blood will be shed in the future. History repeats itself because so many refuse to learn its lessons especially about appeasement. I suggest you carefully study moral theology and make an attempt to seperate yourself from the moral relativism that you have been indoctrinated with.

I don’t think reasoning with you will do much good. At least until you start to question the propaganda you have been fed. But I will say it again… we are better then them.

 

[jimmy]

Lumen Gentium:

OOPs…I think we’re getting far from the original thought of this thread. Just to clear things out:

Some here think Islam is a violent religion. Terrorism is violence so that we may unconsciously believe that muslims are terrorists of which are not (most terrorists are muslims but not all muslims are terrorists) and of which we should really be careful about because if we are not, this continuous hatred between muslims and christians will never stop.

Evil is evil no matter in what form or shape it comes. War is simply evil. It’s the devil’s game, and we are his toys, but only if we allow to be his toys. I will only tell the jews in heaven that WW2 was justified on the part of the allies if anti-semitism has been completely wiped off the face of this earth.

Allowing evil is not negotiating with the devil nor it is tolerating. But evil + evil = more evil. I stick to my original thought. I would rather practice first what my faith teaches me before I go out and whine about muslims.

PAX

So we just allow the Nazi’s to kill Jews in concentration camps. We don’t defend the Jews. That is completely against God. We are to defend those who can’t help themselves. If we didn’t actually fight in a war against the Nazi’s what should we have done? Hey mister Hitler sir, killin Jews is bad. Please stop. I am sure that Hitler would have apologized right away and released and given all the Jews reparations for what was done to them.

 

[Lumen_Gentium]

Show me a reference to a Catholic Church document justifying wars and I will believe that the Catholic Church does not agree with me. Reference please. Maybe I’ve missed something the church teaches on morality and wars.

I never claimed any moral high ground by justifying terrorism and genocide. Just because I do not agree on any wars and conflicts and solving wars and conflicts with another war and conflict doesn’t mean I justify terrorism and genocide! You have no right to accuse me as an ally of terrorisml. You are way off your reasoning my friend. With your kind of reasoning, it won’t neither do me any good.

When JP2 said NO to the war in Iraq which President Bush fooled Americans (you are obviously one of them!) as part of his war on terrorism, and when JP2 said war is a defeat for humanity, you should have told the Holy Father he was not in the right church!
You should have told the Holy Father to study moral theology after all he had two doctorates on Theology and Philosophy.

There is no need to equate the current war with WW2. Obviously you want to justify the current war by bringing in the past war. And who thrust this war upon you? President Bush? LOL!

This is really getting way off the thread. I reiterate what Christ said about the sinless to be the first to cast the first stone upon the sinner. I cannot offer guns and bullets to the muslim terrorists, but I can offer my rosary prayers for their conversion. I have stated my point. PERIOD.

cestusdei:

Lumen,
The Catholic Church does not agree with you. We are not a pacifist faith. We do believe in just wars. WWII was manifestly a just one. I would argue so is the one on terrorism. The Church also allows for the police power of the state to deter wrongdoers. Even the necessity of killing them justly. You are in the wrong Church if you want to argue that we should not respond to or stop evil by licit means.

It is astonishing that you claim the moral high ground by justifying terrorism and genocide. Yes, that is what you are doing. Certainly we don’t like war, but this one was thrust upon us. If you can’t condemn Hitler or recognize that his degree of sin was far more vast then that of the allies then you really have a problem. All people are sinners, but some are worse sinners then others. I may sin, but I haven’t killed 6 million people either. Catholics see the difference and so should you. Unfortunately you, like so many, are being sympathetic to terrorists in a odd attempt to be “fair”. It makes you one of their allies and a gives them aid and comfort. It increases the chance they will continue to strike because they think we will surrender and do what they want. You make it more likely that innocent blood will be shed in the future. History repeats itself because so many refuse to learn its lessons especially about appeasement. I suggest you carefully study moral theology and make an attempt to seperate yourself from the moral relativism that you have been indoctrinated with.

I don’t think reasoning with you will do much good. At least until you start to question the propaganda you have been fed. But I will say it again… we are better then them.

 

[jimmy]

Lumen Gentium:

Show me a reference to a Catholic Church document justifying wars and I will believe that the Catholic Church does not agree with me. Reference please. Maybe I’ve missed something the church teaches on morality and wars.

What could be better than the Catechism? Here is what the Catechism says.

[2309](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2309.htm’) The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

• the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

• all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

• there must be serious prospects of success; - the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

The Catholic Church teaches that war can be just.

 

[cestusdei]

Lumen,
There you have it. You also questioned me on forced conversions in Indonesia. I notice you never responded to the evidence that I provided. This war began on 911 when Muslims attacked New York and killed several thousand innocent civilians. That is how the war was thrust upon us. If that hadn’t happened we wouldn’t be at war. Blaming it on Bush is like blaming WWII on Churchill. Which you seem to do. Face it. You are willing to excuse terrorism in the name of peace. How off the wall is that? Do not pretend that your view reflects Church teaching. It doesn’t. It reflects the view of pc anti-American bigots. It doesn’t matter what propaganda you serve up. We are better then the terrorists.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

jimmy:

What could be better than the Catechism?

The Bible too, perhaps?

“Do not let others have their way at your expense; do not bring your own ruin by giving up your rights.” Sirach 4:22

“Stand up for what is right, even if it costs you your life; the Lord God will be fighting at your side.” Sirach 4:28

 

[Lumen_Gentium]

Now how does the teaching of catechism applies to Bush and his current war on Iraq and terrorism?

Quote:

• all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

Has he used all other means and exhausted them before going to Iraq? Yes, he did. War in Afghanistan first.

Quote:

• there must be serious prospects of success; - the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

And what has the war on Iraq produced? More killings…more terrorism…more insurgencies.

And you try to justify this war by equating it with WW2? Silly.
I said we have the option to avoid war and conflicts. Of course defense is justifiable, but not pre-emptive offense. WW2 is different from the current war. Can’t you not see the difference? Open up your eyes!

On the forced conversion in Indonesia…Well, there have been forced conversion to Catholicism too in history. So what’s the issue?

This war did not start during 9/11. Do some research so you would be stunned to know who provided arms and weapons to muslim terrorists. In fact your country from Bush Sr. to Reagan used to provide arms and weapons to Iraq. Christians like YOU and I. So before whining about them, let’s clean our own backyards first.

PAX

jimmy:

What could be better than the Catechism? Here is what the Catechism says.

The Catholic Church teaches that war can be just.

 

[pnewton]

Lumen Gentium:

Show me a reference to a Catholic Church document justifying wars and I will believe that the Catholic Church does not agree with me.

You asked to be shown.
You were shown.
Now you change the topic to a specific situation.(Bush)

This is a bait and switch.

 

[Lumen_Gentium]

I give you more relevant verses from the New Testament. The Gospels in particular:

“But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” Mathew 5:39

“If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.” Luke 6:29

PAX
Rand Al'Thor:

The Bible too, perhaps?

“Do not let others have their way at your expense; do not bring your own ruin by giving up your rights.” Sirach 4:22

“Stand up for what is right, even if it costs you your life; the Lord God will be fighting at your side.” Sirach 4:28

 

[Lumen_Gentium]

HUH? Yup. I did see that and my view on wars and conflict is not necessarily going against the teachings of the church. Someone said something about the war being thrust upon us. I just happened to reply it was Bush and who else would have lead us to war in Iraq? Someone said it was 9/11, and I said who supplied arms to terrorists before 9/11…and so it went that way…

PAX

PS. I cannot do it alone against a bunch of others…So I leave this thread. It’s not propaganda as cestusdei thinks it is. It’s a personal opinion (anti-American sentiments - look here, some people don’t hate Americans, they just don’t agree American foreign policies) and I don’t want opinions to be mixed up with matters of faith, something that I must admit that I have done on this thread.

pnewton:

You asked to be shown.
You were shown.
Now you change the topic to a specific situation.(Bush)

This is a bait and switch.

 

[cestusdei]

Lumen,
You live in an American Territory. But you are a Filipino. You benefit from our protection and freedoms. You repay us by sympathizing with terrorists. I suggest you consider leaving my country. In your own you will discover Muslim terrorists are also at work. As I am sure you know.

You bring up ancient history on forced conversions. I can quote ones happening right now done by Muslims. Then you complain when we mention WWII. Incidentally we saved your country from Japanese occupation. You’re welcome. I have absolutely no doubt we will have to save you again in the future. But since you hate my country and believe it to be evil you should not stay here. I bet you can find a job in Saudi Arabia. You will enjoy the wonderful treatment and freedom that is so prevalent there. Then you can tell us how nice Islam is and how mean we are.

 

[pnewton]

Lumen Gentium:

HUH?

I’ll recap. You said, “Show me a reference to a Catholic Church document justifying wars and I will believe that the Catholic Church does not agree with me. Reference please. Maybe I’ve missed something the church teaches on morality and wars.”

Bases on this challenge, jimmy posted from the Catechism that part pertaining to the just war doctrine, showing wars can be justified.

Instead of acknowledging that your challenge was answered you changed the question and said, “Now how does the teaching of catechism applies to Bush and his current war on Iraq and terrorism?”

This is what I meant bt bait and switch.

 

[Lumen_Gentium]

Wow…This is really getting below the belt. I must let you know that although I live and work in an American territory, I owe you nothing. I pay my taxes and give my services to your benefits. If I have to follow your view, then I might as well suggest Americans to leave my country also. You ought to know you saved my country from the Japanese forces because of your own vested interest in my country and not just in the name of freedom. If we didn’t ask your military bases to leave my country, I bet you would have still be there right now. I brought up ancient history on forced convertions in parallel to your bringing up of WW2 to current issues of which I viewed as irrelevant, that is why I didn’t bother with the forced convertion in Indonesia in the first place. And FYI, there are millions of Filipinos working in Saudi Arabia proving that they can still be christians in a non-christian country. Why - there are thousands of Americans who found jobs in Saudi Arabia as well, so what’s the point of asking to find jobs in Saudi Arabia? Oh, I didn’t say I hate your country. I love it so much if that’s what makes you happy. It’s the wars that I hate. Is this anything clearer to you? You accuse me of sympathizing with terrorists, but I have given you my premises and still your reasoning is flawed from those given premises. To remind you again, just because I don’t like wars and conflicts doesn’t mean I’m on the terrorists’ side. We have been dealing with muslim terrorists ourselves in our country even before you guys experienced 9/11, so it’s not anything unfamiliar to us.

But I have to live with what I believe, and so my peace I give unto you.

cestusdei:

Lumen,
You live in an American Territory. But you are a Filipino. You benefit from our protection and freedoms. You repay us by sympathizing with terrorists. I suggest you consider leaving my country. In your own you will discover Muslim terrorists are also at work. As I am sure you know.

You bring up ancient history on forced conversions. I can quote ones happening right now done by Muslims. Then you complain when we mention WWII. Incidentally we saved your country from Japanese occupation. You’re welcome. I have absolutely no doubt we will have to save you again in the future. But since you hate my country and believe it to be evil you should not stay here. I bet you can find a job in Saudi Arabia. You will enjoy the wonderful treatment and freedom that is so prevalent there. Then you can tell us how nice Islam is and how mean we are.

 

[cestusdei]

Lumen,
We were attacked on Dec. 8th, 1941 in your country. That is why we fought. Once again we were attacked. We were NOT the aggressor. After the war your country received its independence. And yes, we did leave your country when you requested it. Our bases there are now run by the Filipino military. If we are as evil as you say we would have said no and stayed there.

Maybe you should check out some of the stories of Filipino’s in Saudi Arabia. Rape, forced conversion, arrest and execution for praying as Christians. Not like you have it in the USA. Even Americans suffer in similiar ways there. Filipino’s have complained that their Bibles and prayerbooks are rountinely thrown in the trash upon entering Saudi Arabia. You don’t seem to care much for your fellow countrymen by excusing this kind of thing.

You have said that the US and terrorists are the same. No difference between us. That puts you on their side. Whether you like it or not. You help them. I consider that sedition. I see no reason to allow foreigners who do not support the US to stay in my country. You admit you benefit from living here. Then you repay our hospitality by giving aid and comfort to our enemies in time of war. Americans are fighting and dying for you. To keep you safe from bin Laden, who you equate with us. If you believe everything you say you would leave the US immediately. But I suspect you enjoy the life and freedom you have here. All of which is given to you by the very nation you consider to be terroristic. You won’t leave because you have it to good. If I had a house guest like that I would kick them out.

 

[cestusdei]

Here is evidence of how our scriptures and faithful are treated in Islamic nations:

cnsnews.com//ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=\ForeignBureaus\archive00505\FOR20050519a.html

During the 1990s, Nalliah spent two years in Saudi Arabia, where he was deeply involved with the underground church.

“It’s a very well-known fact that if you have a Bible at customs when you enter the airport, and if they find the Bible, that the Bible is taken and put in the shredder,” he said in an interview this week.

“If you have more than one Bible you will be taken into custody, and if you have a quantity of Bibles you will be given 70 lashes for sure - you could even be executed.”

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

I saw this in today’s Boston Globe (I’ve underlined what I think his strongest points are):

Why Islam is disrespected

By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | May 19, 2005

It was front-page news this week when Newsweek retracted a report claiming that a US interrogator in Guantanamo had flushed a copy of the Koran down a toilet. Everywhere it was noted that Newsweek’s story had sparked widespread Muslim rioting, in which at least 17 people were killed. But there was no mention of deadly protests triggered in recent years by comparable acts of desecration against other religions.

No one recalled, for example, that American Catholics lashed out in violent rampages in 1989, after photographer Andres Serrano’s ''Piss Christ" – a photograph of a crucifix submerged in urine – was included in an exhibition subsidized by the National Endowment for the Arts. Or that they rioted in 1992 when singer Sinead O’Connor, appearing on ''Saturday Night Live," ripped up a photograph of Pope John Paul II.

There was no reminder that Jewish communities erupted in lethal violence in 2000, after Arabs demolished Joseph’s Tomb, torching the ancient shrine and murdering a young rabbi who tried to save a Torah. And nobody noted that Buddhists went on a killing spree in 2001 in response to the destruction of two priceless, 1,500-year-old statues of Buddha by the Taliban government in Afghanistan.

Of course, there was a good reason all these bloody protests went unremembered in the coverage of the Newsweek affair: They never occurred.

Christians, Jews, and Buddhists don’t lash out in homicidal rage when their religion is insulted. They don’t call for holy war and riot in the streets. It would be unthinkable for a mainstream priest, rabbi, or lama to demand that a blasphemer be slain. But when Reuters reported what Mohammad Hanif, the imam of a Muslim seminary in Pakistan, said about the alleged Koran-flushers – ''They should be hung. They should be killed in public so that no one can dare to insult Islam and its sacred symbols" – was any reader surprised?

The Muslim riots should have been met by outrage and condemnation. From every part of the civilized world should have come denunciations of those who would react to the supposed destruction of a book with brutal threats and the slaughter of 17 innocent people. But the chorus of condemnation was directed not at the killers and the fanatics who incited them, but at Newsweek.

From the White House down, the magazine was slammed – for running an item it should have known might prove incendiary, for relying on a shaky source, for its animus toward the military and the war. Over and over, Newsweek was blamed for the riots’ death toll. Conservative pundits in particular piled on. ''Newsweek lied, people died" was the headline on Michelle Malkin’s popular website. At NationalReview.com, Paul Marshall of Freedom House fumed: ''What planet do these [Newsweek] people live on? . . . Anybody with a little knowledge could have told them it was likely that people would die as a result of the article." All of Marshall’s choler was reserved for Newsweek; he had no criticism at all for the marauders in the Muslim street.

Then there was Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who announced at a Senate hearing that she had a message for ''Muslims in America and throughout the world." And what was that message? That decent people do not resort to murder just because someone has offended their religious sensibilities? That the primitive bloodlust raging in Afghanistan and Pakistan was evidence of the Muslim world’s dysfunctional political culture?

(cont.)

 

[stillsmallvoice]

(cont.)

No: Her message was that ''disrespect for the Holy Koran is not now, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be, tolerated by the United States."

Granted, Rice spoke while the rioting was still taking place and her goal was to reduce the anti-American fever. But what ''Muslims in America and throughout the world" most need to hear is not pandering sweet-talk. What they need is a blunt reminder that the real desecration of Islam is not what some interrogator in Guantanamo might have done to the Koran. It is what totalitarian Muslim zealots have been doing to innocent human beings in the name of Islam. It is 9/11 and Beslan and Bali and Daniel Pearl and the USS Cole. It is trains in Madrid and schoolbuses in Israel and an ''insurgency" in Iraq that slaughters Muslims as they pray and vote and line up for work. It is Hamas and Al Qaeda and sermons filled with infidel-hatred and exhortations to ''martyrdom."

But what disgraces Islam above all is the vast majority of the planet’s Muslims saying nothing and doing nothing about the jihadist cancer eating away at their religion. It is Free Muslims Against Terrorism, a pro-democracy organization, calling on Muslims and Middle Easterners to ''converge on our nation’s capital for a rally against terrorism" – and having only 50 people show up.

Yes, Islam is disrespected. That will only change when throngs of passionate Muslims show up for rallies against terrorism, and when rabble-rousers trying to gin up a riot over a defiled Koran can’t get the time of day.

Jeff Jacoby’s e-mail address is jacoby@globe.com.

Link: boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/05/19/why_islam_is_disrespected/

Be well!

ssv

 

[Lumen_Gentium]

You attacked, invaded and annexed our country years before 1941. Re-check your history. From the time you betrayed us by freeing us from Spain and colonizing us, it took decades before you finally let go of your military bases in our country even as we had continue to struggle in kicking you out of our homeland. Yet even in current times, you continue to meddle in our affairs. All because of your vested interest.

You keep on giving only two options: either black or white. Your reasoning is still flawed. But since this is the only thing you can present and you can’t see the gray area, what can I do?

You can’t expect christians to act like muslims when our bible and prayerbooks are burned or trashed. Why - you want us to act like them? You expect muslims to act like christians when their koran is desecrated, but muslims are not christians and that’s why they are different from us. It’s like you expect a devil to act like a saint and a saint to act like a devil. Oh yes, you can convert a devil to be a saint. But you can’t make a devil a saint by being another devil. This is not excusing, tolerating, sympathizing or call it what you would like to. This is presenting to you the facet of life in this world. That evil has to co-exist with goodness. But you have other options beside choosing between evil and goodness only.

OK, since you want me to fight a war against the terrorists, we might as well go and chase the terrorists where they are. And…Iraq. Bin Laden, who you said you are keeping us safe from, is nowhere in Iraq. Why did you go to Iraq? What have you done to Iraq? You sowed the seeds of terror that is why everyday we continue to hear of murders, terrorism and insurgencies in Iraq. What about the weapons of mass destructions, have you found them in Iraq yet?

Sorry to tell you, you can’t kick me out of your house as a houseguest because I’m not your houseguest. I’m part of the family members living in the same house you live, if you know what I mean. I am no foreigner in your country, my friend.
I bet your ancestors came to this great country of ours as a foreigner or if not, then I suppose you are a native American.
Yes, I enjoy here you bet. I enjoy the freedom. The freedom to do what is right.

Like JP2, I’d just have to say NO to war. War is a defeat for humanity.

PAX

cestusdei:

Lumen,
We were attacked on Dec. 8th, 1941 in your country. That is why we fought. Once again we were attacked. We were NOT the aggressor. After the war your country received its independence. And yes, we did leave your country when you requested it. Our bases there are now run by the Filipino military. If we are as evil as you say we would have said no and stayed there.

Maybe you should check out some of the stories of Filipino’s in Saudi Arabia. Rape, forced conversion, arrest and execution for praying as Christians. Not like you have it in the USA. Even Americans suffer in similiar ways there. Filipino’s have complained that their Bibles and prayerbooks are rountinely thrown in the trash upon entering Saudi Arabia. You don’t seem to care much for your fellow countrymen by excusing this kind of thing.

You have said that the US and terrorists are the same. No difference between us. That puts you on their side. Whether you like it or not. You help them. I consider that sedition. I see no reason to allow foreigners who do not support the US to stay in my country. You admit you benefit from living here. Then you repay our hospitality by giving aid and comfort to our enemies in time of war. Americans are fighting and dying for you. To keep you safe from bin Laden, who you equate with us. If you believe everything you say you would leave the US immediately. But I suspect you enjoy the life and freedom you have here. All of which is given to you by the very nation you consider to be terroristic. You won’t leave because you have it to good. If I had a house guest like that I would kick them out.

 

[cestusdei]

Lumen,
So we free you from the Spanish and you complain. We defend you from the Japanese and you complain. Eventually we will have to fight to defend you from the Chinese and you will probably complain. Right now Islamic terrorists threaten your nation, we assist you, and you complain. No good deed goes unpunished. If we were as evil as you claim we would never have granted you independence, but we did didn’t we? That’s a historical fact. Just an inconvenient one for you.

I do expect the Muslims to act civilized. That means not rioting and killing even over the alleged destruction of their holy book. You’re right, I expect them to act like Christians. I expect them to not stone women to death or execute people who convert to christianity or flog foreigners who want to pray. Gee, I ask for so much. On the other hand you justify their butchery and pretend to be a pacifist.

It seems that the wmd made it out in time. Probably to Syria. Maybe they will eventually use one on us. You will cheer with the other anti-Americans. Until we respond with massive force. Which is exactly what would happen. It is in everyones interest that we never suffer a wmd attack. If you had your way good old Saddam would be killing hundreds of thousands more of his people. How strange that pacifists so often excuse and defend dictators. At least I don’t pretend that a dictator is anything other then what he is.

Don’t say “our” country. I served in the US military. I was born here. My ancestors fought to defend MY nation. You haven’t earned the right to say “our” nation. You live here as a parasite. Enjoying our freedom while weakening us during a war against evil terrorists. If you views prevail we will suffer further attacks. This will lead to martial law and nuclear conflict. You will blame us, but it will by you who is to blame. If you can’t support this nation then head back to your own. We need no more traitors in our midst. You want history? Read about Benedict Arnold.

 

[cestusdei]

I also want it noted that Lumen has never responded to the catechism quotes, the evidence on persecution in Indonesia or Saudi Arabia, nor anything else he asked for and we gave him. How many times do we have to give him evidence that he then ignores while changing the subject?