Allow gay Catholics in ssm to receive communion?

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Blue_Horizon said:
When you are able to respond rationally to what people actually say instead of just venting excess pressurised steam let’s take this further.

Hint: “…coming to a different prudential judgement while still agreeing on the universal moral principles.”

Your moral analysis continues to be hamstrung by your flawed view that prudential application of moral principles to concrete actual circumstances is but a trivial and amoral phase of a complete moral act.
Both Rau and Fr Ruggero have also indicated you may need to rethink your understanding here.
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Are you a troll? You sound more like a Mensa Nazzi than a Christian teacher. Are you trying to be helpful?
 
Ender said:
Not exactly. What I realize is that you have a tendency to change the focus of a topic, and that the change is often from the relevant to the irrelevant-and-slightly-misleading. Like your insistence that the correct translation of the Fifth Commandment is “kill”, even though that is not its meaning.

The same is true with regard to committing mortal sin. It is the public commission of grave sins that causes communion to be withheld, not whether person A can know whether person B is actually culpable for that sin. Regarding SSM we know that a grave sin has been committed, and that is sufficient.

Ender
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Not my beef.

My beef was that some posters do not understand what they are saying when they go on about all active Catholic gays are guilty of personal mortal sins:shrug:
No, they are “guilty” of engaging in grave matter.
Something distinctly different, more objective and less pejorative
 
Peter_J said:
Well depends which direction you’re talking about. What I mean is, someone who is in a state of mortal sin should not receive communion; but if someone isn’t in a state of mortal sin it does not necessarily follow that he or she should be admitted to communion.

In particular, anyone going against Catholic teaching should not receive communion (in a Catholic church I mean) whether or not they’re in a state of mortal sin.

This statement together with many others that I’ve read or heard over the years, suggests to me that many people have higher expectations for the Catholic Answers Forum than for other discussion forums.
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I suggest you abandon use of the phrase “state of mortal sin” which is now archaic and while valid if used correctly most users do not do so and end up believing things that are actually not in conformity with Church teaching either ancient or new.

What I believe you really mean is those who have engaged in grave matter.
Better still in the context of persons self deciding on going to Communion and Confession would be the phrase , “conscious of grave sin” as per Canon 916.
Of course re Communion access getting into the Communion line is only one half of the dialogue. The other half are the different rules the priest must follow in giving Communion. As per Canon 915.

But my beef here is not Communion access disciplines so not commenting further sorry.
 
Ender said:
Not exactly. What I realize is that you have a tendency to change the focus of a topic, and that the change is often from the relevant to the irrelevant-and-slightly-misleading. Like your insistence that the correct translation of the Fifth Commandment is “kill”, even though that is not its meaning.

The same is true with regard to committing mortal sin. It is the public commission of grave sins that causes communion to be withheld, not whether person A can know whether person B is actually culpable for that sin. Regarding SSM we know that a grave sin has been committed, and that is sufficient.

Ender
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By all means go off the subtopic I and a few others were actually on if you wish … but I won’t be joining you 🤷.
 
Mammoths said:
Not only that but it is generally accepted courtesy not to hijack another members thread. The issues blue heron wants to discuss are worth discussing in their own thread. It seems to me that the plain answer for my question has been covered. Here is the answer to this thread as I understand it:

Open practicing homosexuals don’t receive communion in a Catholic Church until they repent and receive the sacrement of reconciliation.

Pope Francis has not said or implied the contrary but has been misunderstood by some in the media. What he actually said means that persons in a disordered domestic union may need the churches help all the more in conversion. Therefore we need to be discerning and gracious about the practical difficulties.

I am disappointed about the way the discussion has gone. Had I known I would not have started it. All this posturing about who has the most extensive moral theological background to discern on the application of terms like kill, sin, grave sin, mortal sin, sanctifying grace, culpability, full knowledge and consent, etc has no bearing on the question at hand and doesn’t change the answer. The posturing is destructive and the sincere discussion of these topics would be beneficial in several threads of their own. If we were left to figure out what the churches position SHOULD BE on ssm we would have to understand all these things. However, all I really asked and all any of us is qualified to discuss as per forum rules is what the churches position IS–and that is laid out simply, clearly and accessibly. As far as catholic forum people being held at a higher standard then secular forums–absolutely if it’s a Christian forum. “You shall be holy as I Am holy,” says The Lord.
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It’s sad when a questioner will only hear what he wants to hear and anything in depth that challenges areas of limited learning is to be rejected precisely because it’s possibly informed and too deep and difficult and opposes simplistic childhood understandings.

We laity don’t have to understand, especially if we are not equipped with the theological training to do so. We don’t have to have a mechanic or manufacturer understanding of how our car Engine works. We just have to drive it and follow the usual rules.
That doesn’t mean the driver manual rules cannot change…because many are simplistic and for dummies, as they should be.
When things go wrong don’t try too hard to work it out on your own. Take it to the mechanic or dealer. They know what they are about.

So the bottom line of the drivers manual is that it’s the PP who finally decides who and who does not get to receive Communion. In the end it’s none of our business and we aren’t trained to understand how he “fixes” these things.
And if a Catholic gay person wants advice…introduce him to Father.
End of story.
 
Mammoths said:
Are you a troll? You sound more like a Mensa Nazzi than a Christian teacher. Are you trying to be helpful?
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There is no easy way to burst bubbles.
Calling someone a troll when they dare suggest we wear Emporer Clothes is a normal human reactions that needs to eventually be overcome if we are to mature in the small area indicated.

I don’t know about you but if I came out of the airport toilet with a yard of paper hanging from the back of my trousers I wouldn’t mind however gruffly a busy but caring passer-by helpfully told me.

Life is short, learn from everybody who offers advice whatever the manner, get over the hurt pride and live it.
 
Blue_Horizon said:
There is no easy way to burst bubbles.
Calling someone a troll when they dare suggest we wear Emporer Clothes is a normal human reactions that needs to eventually be overcome if we are to mature in the small area indicated.

I don’t know about you but if I came out of the airport toilet with a yard of paper hanging from the back of my trousers I wouldn’t mind however gruffly a busy but caring passer-by helpfully told me.

Life is short, learn from everybody who offers advice whatever the manner, get over the hurt pride and live it.
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If you take your own advice, a tiny amount of humility will begin to show in your posts.
 
Mammoths said:
If you take your own advice, a tiny amount of humility will begin to show in your posts.
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Thanks for the advice.
I do my best but diplomacy is not my forte nor do I have enough time to work out the best coddling phrases.
Choosing between saying nothing and saying something that is apposite but will likely offend is always difficult.
In the end I follow Padre Pios advice (who usually upset his more hardened penitents), “the good ones always come back.”

If you cannot accept my insights (which have a lifetime of formal theology training, prayer and reflection behind them by a daily mass goer) then just treat me as crazy and ignore them.

But always remember the hardest personal errors to overcome by definition will be those we have nursed from childhood and in which we will likely have an emotional attachment.
Those things that make us blow our fuses most easily will therefore be exactly where they are likely buried.

That’s just a truth life eventually teaches all of us.
 
Blue_Horizon said:
Thanks for the advice.
I do my best but diplomacy is not my forte nor do I have enough time to work out the best coddling phrases.
Choosing between saying nothing and saying something that is apposite but will likely offend is always difficult.
In the end I follow Padre Pios advice (who usually upset his more hardened penitents), “the good ones always come back.”

If you cannot accept my insights (which have a lifetime of formal theology training, prayer and reflection behind them by a daily mass goer) then just treat me as crazy and ignore them.

But always remember the hardest personal errors to overcome by definition will be those we have nursed from childhood and in which we will likely have an emotional attachment.
Those things that make us blow our fuses most easily will therefore be exactly where they are likely buried.

That’s just a truth life eventually teaches all of us.
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Look, I am not retarded. I am not a seminarian but that doesn’t mean I have no sense at all. There is a lot about my knowledge you don’t know and a lot I don’t know about you. We are operating anonymously on a forum. It is a rule of the forum that we aren’t suppoed to make claims of authority or position without being first approved by the forum staff. I don’t se “CA Cetechest” on your profile. That being the case, I don’t know if you are a bishop or a nobody. Therefore I can only evaluate what you say based on corroborating resources and plain reason. That doesn’t mean I don’t think about what you say. However, there is a big difference between prodding a hardened penetent in hopes of getting them to take conversion seriously and making condescending remarks to fellow forumites because they don’t have the technical knowledge of canonical nomenclature that you do. If it goes over my head, trust me, it’s not because my 8 years of hard science and math made me stupid or because my creative access mission work made me too hard hearted to care. Rather the issue I take with the way this whole thread has gone with several participants is the self agrandizing tone. As I said the side issues raised are worth discussing. It would be better to separate them out to individual threads. There is complexity in some of these tangents but the topic raised was a simple one. But let’s not pretend that you can believe me or I you as though we know each other–we don’t. You and others in this thread have attempted to assert their credentials into the discussion. However this is totally unnecessary among anonymous contributors because real knowledge is identifiable by its council. If someday we meet and you are wearing the habit of a bishop, then I will hear you as you are known. As you are unknown, here are the credentials I look for in CA discussions:

James 3:16-18New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of mercy and good fruits, without inconstancy or insincerity. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace.
 
Mammoths said:
Look, I am not retarded. I am not a seminarian but that doesn’t mean I have no sense at all. There is a lot about my knowledge you don’t know and a lot I don’t know about you. We are operating anonymously on a forum. It is a rule of the forum that we aren’t suppoed to make claims of authority or position without being first approved by the forum staff. I don’t se “CA Cetechest” on your profile. That being the case, I don’t know if you are a bishop or a nobody. Therefore I can only evaluate what you say based on corroborating resources and plain reason. That doesn’t mean I don’t think about what you say. However, there is a big difference between prodding a hardened penetent in hopes of getting them to take conversion seriously and making condescending remarks to fellow forumites because they don’t have the technical knowledge of canonical nomenclature that you do. If it goes over my head, trust me, it’s not because my 8 years of hard science and math made me stupid or because my creative access mission work made me too hard hearted to care. Rather the issue I take with the way this whole thread has gone with several participants is the self agrandizing tone. As I said the side issues raised are worth discussing. It would be better to separate them out to individual threads. There is complexity in some of these tangents but the topic raised was a simple one. But let’s not pretend that you can believe me or I you as though we know each other–we don’t. You and others in this thread have attempted to assert their credentials into the discussion. However this is totally unnecessary among anonymous contributors because real knowledge is identifiable by its council. If someday we meet and you are wearing the habit of a bishop, then I will hear you as you are known. As you are unknown, here are the credentials I look for in CA discussions:

James 3:16-18New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of mercy and good fruits, without inconstancy or insincerity. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace.
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That’s fine, if you cannot see the intrinsic validity within what I opine just treat me as stupid, ignore me and move on.
I thankyou that you took time to reflect on my words before discarding them.
Some do not even do that.

Not too sure about the credentials you look for.
Catherine of Sienna made a point of seeking out learned confessors not holy one’s.
Hard to get both, I am afraid I am not very holy though I have always kept the Commandments. Nor am I a confessor, at the moment.
 
Blue_Horizon said:
I suggest you abandon use of the phrase “state of mortal sin” which is now archaic and while valid if used correctly most users do not do so and end up believing things that are actually not in conformity with Church teaching either ancient or new.
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As Alan Rickman said, I’ll take it under advisement.

:cool:

But seriously, I believe what I said,
In particular, anyone going against Catholic teaching should not receive communion (in a Catholic church I mean) whether or not they’re in a state of mortal sin.
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is correct.

If someone engages in homosexual sexual acts, he or she should not receive communion in a Catholic Church (or some other conservative churches I could name) whether or not he or she is in a state of mortal sin.

As for comments posted on discussion forums … well read at your own risk I suppose.
 
Blue_Horizon said:
In the end I follow Padre Pios advice (who usually upset his more hardened penitents), “the good ones always come back.”
.
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Perhaps there are other traits of his one could imitate. I feel like most of us are already adequately skilled at p.o.ing others. :o
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
Yes, but we should not kick them out when they are in need of Christ’s help. Even if they do not realize they need Christ back in their lives.
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Sacramental practice is not remotely a matter of social justice.

I know full well the church doesn’t in practice consist in anything else and there is no such thing as Christian life, but what “Fiasco” says is truth.

In my young day fully half the congregation sat out, every week, and I bet they hadn’t done anything half as “bad” !!! 😉

Sadly, sitting out has gone out of fashion except with the last diehard - me.

People who say this sort of thing subscribe to the Smartie theory of Catholicism - like most “Catholics”!
 
Fiasco said:
It (receiving communion) would inflict more condemnation on them seeing they’re already in the state of Mortal Sin.
Blue Horizon;14641948:
An unfortunate and poorly put statement methinks.

Perhaps what you really meant was that same sex acts are of grave matter and if engaged in with full consent and knowledge constitute actual mortal sin.
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Fiasco said:
Are you saying that the spiritual state of a person who’s (already) in the state of Mortal Sin isn’t worsened when he receives the Blessed Sacrament? (sacrilegious reception)

If you can prove my error, i’ll concede.
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Blue_Horizon said:
Perhaps someone else can explain 🤷.
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Fiasco said:
Why can’t** you**, seeing you’re certain i’m wrong?

Maybe i am, but proof first. 🤷

Any takers?
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I think you can’t explain when you realize you have mis-spoken and can’t bring yourself to admit it.

You are correct.
 
Vic_Taltrees_UK said:
In my young day fully half the congregation sat out, every week, and I bet they hadn’t done anything half as “bad” !!! 😉

Sadly, sitting out has gone out of fashion except with the last diehard - me.
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Indeed. I think part of the reason people are so offended when we say that sexually-active gay Catholics shouldn’t receive communion is because they don’t know or don’t understand what the church teaches about premarital sex, masturbation, and contraception.
 
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