Allowing homosexual marriage as a means of "freedom" even if one does not agree with it

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In a democratic society we have to accept the fact that laws often reflect the will of the fallible majority whose decisions may prejudice the welfare of individuals - as demonstrated by the immense number of abortions performed simply for convenience…
 
tonyrey
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In a democratic society we have to accept the fact that laws often reflect the will of the fallible majority whose decisions may prejudice the welfare of individuals - as demonstrated by the immense number of abortions performed simply for convenience… **

With Roe v Wade the democratic majority on the Supreme Court was 7 to 2.

This is what happens when men place their faith in the majority of men rather than the majority of God.
 
tonyrey
**
In a democratic society we have to accept the fact that laws often reflect the will of the fallible majority whose decisions may prejudice the welfare of individuals - as demonstrated by the immense number of abortions performed simply for convenience… **

With Roe v Wade the democratic majority on the Supreme Court was 7 to 2.

This is what happens when men place their faith in the majority of men rather than the majority of God.
One of the messages of Easter - endorsed by the Pope - is that we live in an inhuman society and an appeal to reason and conscience falls on deaf ears. At this very moment the British government is causing hardship by reducing the living allowance for the poor while increasing the income allowance for the wealthy whose greed has ensured that there is widespread unemployment. Just one more example of the false values of the secular society which encourages the uninhibited exploitation of men, women and children who do not have enough income to buy food and heat their home…

The work and pensions secretary, Iain Duncan Smith - who is supposed to be a Catholic - has claimed he could live on £53 ( 87$ ) a week. His salary alone after tax is £1,600 ( 2432$ ) a week!
 
Homosexual marriage proposes the institutionalization of sodomy as a sexual relationship, just as traditional marriage proposes the institutionalization of sex for the bearing of children. Since sodomy cannot result in children, there is no rational basis to institutionalize it. If men want to live together and have sexual relations and love each other for all they are worth, and women want the same thing for themselves, there is nothing in the world to stop them from doing so. So their right to be sodomites is not infringed upon by the absence of a law to bless their sodomy. Nor is the right to love each other and live with each other infringed upon by the absence of a law to license their relationship.

The only infringement that goes on with legalizing same-sex marriages is the infringement of what marriage was originally intended to accomplish: the commitment of a man and a woman to love each other, and to love and protect the children they may bring into the world, and to assure inheritance rights for those children.
 
One of the messages of Easter - endorsed by the Pope - is that we live in an inhuman society and an appeal to reason and conscience falls on deaf ears. At this very moment the British government is causing hardship by reducing the living allowance for the poor while increasing the income allowance for the wealthy whose greed has ensured that there is widespread unemployment. Just one more example of the false values of the secular society which encourages the uninhibited exploitation of men, women and children who do not have enough income to buy food and heat their home…

The work and pensions secretary, Iain Duncan Smith - who is supposed to be a Catholic - has claimed he could live on £53 ( 87$ ) a week. His salary alone after tax is £1,600 ( 2432$ ) a week!
Correction $87 and $2432 - with apologies!
 
Homosexual marriage proposes the institutionalization of sodomy as a sexual relationship, just as traditional marriage proposes the institutionalization of sex for the bearing of children. Since sodomy cannot result in children, there is no rational basis to institutionalize it. If men want to live together and have sexual relations and love each other for all they are worth, and women want the same thing for themselves, there is nothing in the world to stop them from doing so. So their right to be sodomites is not infringed upon by the absence of a law to bless their sodomy. Nor is the right to love each other and live with each other infringed upon by the absence of a law to license their relationship.

The only infringement that goes on with legalizing same-sex marriages is the infringement of what marriage was originally intended to accomplish: the commitment of a man and a woman to love each other, and to love and protect the children they may bring into the world, and to assure inheritance rights for those children.
👍 There is no reason why homosexuals should not have their own legal relationship with equal rights and with its own title which is clearly distinguishable from the heterosexual relationship of marriage so that there is no conflict, confusion or discrimination. To demand the same title seems to be a case of overcompensation for the injustice endured by homosexuals in the past. It is absurd to attach so much importance to a word!
 
Homosexual marriage proposes the institutionalization of sodomy as a sexual relationship…]If men want to live together and have sexual relations and love each other for all they are worth, and women want the same thing for themselves, there is nothing in the world to stop them from doing so. So their right to be sodomites is not infringed upon by the absence of a law to bless their sodomy.
As I understand the fight for gay marriage, it is not on a right to have sex with some one else. People can and do engage in sexual relationships with and without marriage. Legal marriage in the USA isn’t a requirement for this for heterosexuals or people in the LGBT community (There used to be active laws for it, but in present times unenforced vestige laws are all that seem to remain of such laws. For example there’s a 170 year old law in Georgia that makes it illegal to have sex while not married that has gotten dismissed when some one has tried to use it in court before ).

Legal marriage itself is a contract. The contract of legal marriage allows two parties to engage in other contractual matters that are not available without first having a legal marriage contract or share benefits. For example, a couple that has engaged in a marriage contract can leave property to which ever one of them is a survivor without paying an estate tax. If the two parties are not married then the estate of the survivor will be taxed.

Some of the other benefits that are attached to the marriage contract include:
  • Filing joint income tax returns
  • Inheriting estate without tax penalties
  • Social security and/or vetran’s benefits for a survivor of marriage
  • Receiving worker’s compensation and retirement plan benefits for deceased spouse
  • Visitation rights when spouse is hospitalized in intensive care unit or during restricted hours
  • Making medical decisions for incapacitated spouse
  • Making after-death decisions
  • Ability to sue for wrongful death
  • Claiming communications privileges on legal matters (5th amendment right)
  • Visitation right’s in jail
  • Taking family leave to care for spouse in illness
  • Bereavement leave if spouse dies
  • Sharing health insurance coverage
The only infringement that goes on with legalizing same-sex marriages is the infringement of what marriage was originally intended to accomplish: the commitment of a man and a woman to love each other, and to love and protect the children they may bring into the world, and to assure inheritance rights for those children.
I’m not quite sure how John and Steve down the street getting married has an infringes on Sylvester and Sue’s marriage. But if you say so… 🤷
 
👍 There is no reason why homosexuals should not have their own legal relationship with equal rights which is clearly distinguishable from the heterosexual relationship so that there is no conflict, confusion or discrimination. To demand the same title seems to be a case of overcompensation for the injustice endured by homosexuals in the past. It is absurd to attach so much importance to a word!
Sounds like you may be thinking of what some have referred to as “Civil Unions.” Such arrangements are recognized in a few states. But in the USA since they are not recognized on a federal level two people in a civil union do not available to them all of the legal rights that come with marriage (such as when it comes to federal taxes). Also while two people that engage in a marriage contract can have that contract recognized in other states for civil unions they will only be recognized in certain other states.
 
Some of the other benefits that are attached to the marriage contract include:
  • Filing joint income tax returns
  • Inheriting estate without tax penalties
  • Social security and/or vetran’s benefits for a survivor of marriage
  • Receiving worker’s compensation and retirement plan benefits for deceased spouse
  • Visitation rights when spouse is hospitalized in intensive care unit or during restricted hours
  • Making medical decisions for incapacitated spouse
  • Making after-death decisions
  • Ability to sue for wrongful death*
  • Claiming communications privileges on legal matters (5th amendment right)
  • Visitation right’s in jail*
  • Taking family leave to care for spouse in illness
  • Bereavement leave if spouse dies
  • Sharing health insurance coverage
:
:rolleyes: You do realize that most of this can be accomplished without marriage right? I have highlighted the ones in red that either depend on the state or cannot be accomplished through other means. The * is for ones, where there is variation, but really not much. See prison visitation rights (they might not get conjugal visitation rights, but they still can visit, unless the prisoner is under tighter security, which case a spouse wouldn’t be able to see them anyways.

I do not see what benefit the state is getting from offering tax and social security benefits to homosexual couples? (Especially since both of those benefits were put in place to protect women, who gave up, earning potential and career advancement to raise the next generation of stable productive citizens).
 
Thinking

I’m not quite sure how John and Steve down the street getting married has an infringes on Sylvester and Sue’s marriage. But if you say so…

As I said above, the infringement is on the institution of marriage, which was specifically designed as an institution to protect the family. John and Steve can legally have any legal and sexual arrangement they like. They can live together. They can leave each other their property. But the notion that they have a true family is fatuous on the surface of it. The very nature of their relationship is that they do not contribute to society the way married heterosexuals do, and so they should not be entitled to exactly all the same benefits and incentives that encourage heterosexual marriage and the family.

The bottom line is that in a literal sense a same-sex marriage is NOT equal to a heterosexual marriage. There is not even a husband and a wife, never mind no children.

So it is an affront by John and Steve to usurp by demand the marital rights of Sylvester and Sue.
 
:rolleyes: You do realize that most of this can be accomplished without marriage right?
Not quite. For example, joint state income tax returns can be filed in *some *states. But regardless of state on the federal level they must file independently. Also an attorney cannot setup durable power of attorney for two couples that are not in a marriage contract. Wills for unmarried couples can be challenged, while for a married couple the spouse gets highest priority. Visitation rules vary from one hospital or jail to another, but in general relatives and spouses have less restrictions than outsiders. For all of the items that you’ve highlighted in red these are either things not available to homosexual couples or the closest thing available to them is less durable than what is available to heterosexual couples.

The lesser or total unavailability of these contracts and benefits to gay couples is the inequality that has been spoken of so much.

As you might be able to tell I’ve got no objection to gay people being able to engage in legal marriage contracts with each other.
 
Not quite. For example, joint state income tax returns can be filed in *some *states. But regardless of state on the federal level they must file independently. Also an attorney cannot setup durable power of attorney for two couples that are not in a marriage contract. Wills for unmarried couples can be challenged, while for a married couple the spouse gets highest priority. Visitation rules vary from one hospital or jail to another, but in general relatives and spouses have less restrictions than outsiders. For all of the items that you’ve highlighted in red these are either things not available to homosexual couples or the closest thing available to them is less durable than what is available to heterosexual couples.

The lesser or total unavailability of these contracts and benefits to gay couples is the inequality that has been spoken of so much.

As you might be able to tell I’ve got no objection to gay people being able to engage in legal marriage contracts with each other.
Yes, I said that tax returns cannot be filed jointly, I also pointed out that filing jointly can also create problems for couples, as it essentially puts the lower earner in the higher earners tax bracket, and you would only do so if you will have enough on-going deductions/credits (itemization, house purchase and/or several children, which homosexual couples would on the whole have less of). Oh and you have to have some mad assets for the death tax to be applied to you, and I personally have no issue with taxing the really wealthy homosexual couples (if we are going to keep the death tax). Also they could fund a trust and give the money that way to avoid taxes, if you are that rich you can certainly do that.

I have never heard of a jurisdiction that did not allow you to choose any person you want to have a durable power of attorney. I would like a cite for that. Because you can give a friend or a bank a durable power of attorney. In fact if you don’t trust your spouse with money or financial items (those in your own name) you can name a POA that is not your spouse to protect your assets. That is what it is there for. 🤷

All wills can be challenged. Those of homosexual couples no more than those of people who married late in life, or those who give their end of life caregivers large sums of money. If there is no will it is true that a spouses have the favor of law, it is called intestate statutes and they get a portion depending on who else survived the deseased (and they cannot be disinherited by will, just like minor children). But why should homosexuals get this benefit? These were primarily for the protection of women, who did not have to opportunities as men. Also even when they did, they often gave up careers and earning potential to stay at home with children.

If you give your partner a healthcare POA, then specific hospital visiting rules, do not matter, the hospital has to let that person in. Now if you don’t trust that person enough to give them a Healthcare POA, then maybe there are other issues.

The point is, is that people should not be entering or leaving serious (co-habitating) relationships without the advice of an attorney, this includes heterosexual couples who are living together and sharing assets as well.

All this whining about benefits is mostly an ignorance of the law. The big ones are federal taxes (both income and death tax) which only apply to a very small subset of another small subset. And Social Security benefits (perhaps adoption rights, but not in all jurisdictions, but I have no problem denying these to homosexual couples).
 
There is no reason why homosexuals should not have their own legal relationship with equal rights which is clearly distinguishable from the heterosexual relationship so that there is no conflict, confusion or discrimination. To demand the same title seems to be a case of overcompensation for the injustice endured by homosexuals in the past. It is absurd to attach so much importance to a word!
Your response suggests that you agree in principle with the use of different terms to distinguish the two types of relationship… 🙂
 
I hope I am not being redundant with this question, and if it has already been answered please just direct me to it and you can delete this thread.

I have a friend that is a strong Catholic but he supports homosexual marriage because he thinks it shouldn’t be decided either way by the government. He thinks the government should be “hands off” on this issue and leave it to Churches to accept or deny a person’s marriage request. He sees this as an extension of our country’s freedom of religion.

I have already ordered one of the free booklets that Catholic Answers has about why homosexual unions are not marriages, but in the meantime, how can I discuss this with him and talk to him about why he should still be against homosexual marriage even though he believes that the government shouldn’t interfere in these issues period?
I agree with Leo XIII that the State should have not usurped the authority over marriage from the Church at all:18. Hence are owing civil marriages, commonly so called; 'hence laws are framed which impose impediments to marriage; hence arise judicial sentences affecting the marriage contract, as to whether or not it have been rightly made. Lastly, all power of prescribing and passing judgment in this class of cases is, as we see, of set purpose denied to the Catholic Church, so that no regard is paid either to her divine power or to her prudent laws. Yet, under these, for so many centuries, have the nations lived on whom the light of civilization shone bright with the wisdom of Christ Jesus.
  1. Nevertheless, the naturalists,(32) as well as all who profess that they worship above all things the divinity of the State, and strive to disturb whole communities with such wicked doctrines, cannot escape the charge of delusion. Marriage has God for its Author, and was from the very beginning a kind of foreshadowing of the Incarnation of His Son; and therefore there abides in it a something holy and religious; not extraneous, but innate; not derived from men, but implanted by nature.

    Leo XIII, PP, Encycl. Arcanum, 1880
    If there was a way to get the State completely out of the business of regulating the ministry of the Sacraments, including the Sacrament of Matrimony, that would be a good thing.
Since the State is the one that regulates marriage (for public, civil purposes), the State is the one that decides if a marriage is over (for public, civil purposes). Thus, we have easily accessible divorce. Think about the damage that has done to society in the past century.

Since the State is the one that regulates marriage (for public, civil purposes), the State believes it has the right to define marriage. In the past, this has given us laws against inter-racial marriage. It has also prohibited marriage between “defectives.” Both for clearly eugenic reasons. Now, because of popular immorality, the State is on the cusp of defining marriage as the union of any two people who wish to regularly copulate.

Barring the revival of Christian morality happening within our society…and FAST…the only solution I can see is for the State to stop stomping on the Church’s God-given authority and get out of the marriage business altogether. I don’t want to inhibit the Holy Spirit, but I sure don’t see a revival in morality coming around the pike. At least not in “western” society.

BTW, when I say, “the State,” I don’t mean the States versus the Federales. I mean civil government…at large.
 
The idea of “I don’t support it but I don’t want to tell others what to do” is surely absurd to any rational mind.
This is not necessarily the case. If the bases of legality was Catholic Morality (or any metaphysical morality), then I could agree with you. But in a strictly secular state it simply isn’t possible to prevent same sex civil unions unless the state removes “state-marriage” as a legal right altogether. Otherwise they are contradicting the spit between state and religion.

This is the reason why some rational people would be for same sex state-marriage simply because it indirectly protects religious freedom. If we have religious freedom than it follows that other religions and people who have different beliefs about human sexuality should have the same freedom, unless it self-evidently harms the pragmatic goals of the state.
 
If there was a way to get the State completely out of the business of regulating the ministry of the Sacraments, including the Sacrament of Matrimony, that would be a good thing.
First of all the state does not regulate the Catholic concept of marriage. People are married by the state and not by God.

Secondly, the only way to prevent the state from defining marriage is to reverse the split between state and religion, and that’s not going to happen, unless there is some kind of mass revolution, and the church is given state authority.
 
My own favorite objection to same-sex marriage is that it would automatically grant the same rights of child adoption to sodomites as it gives to heterosexuals. I feel for any heterosexual child whose adoption by a same-sex couple is going to mean that this child
is never going to grow up with a chance of modeling his life of male-female relations. I think children have rights too, and these rights supersede the rights of sodomites who may want to adopt them.

Let the state be guided by the impulse to protects future generations of children, rather than the impulse to satisfy the parental whims of sodomites. Anything short of this impulse to protect heterosexual children is decidedly criminal.
 
My own favorite objection to same-sex marriage is that it would automatically grant the same rights of child adoption to sodomites as it gives to heterosexuals. I feel for any heterosexual child whose adoption by a same-sex couple is going to mean that this child
is never going to grow up with a chance of modeling his life of male-female relations. I think children have rights too, and these rights supersede the rights of sodomites who may want to adopt them.

Let the state be guided by the impulse to protects future generations of children, rather than the impulse to satisfy the parental whims of sodomites. Anything short of this impulse to protect heterosexual children is decidedly criminal.
Pope Francis, when he was a Cardinal, said this about same sex “marriage”:

“Let’s not be naïve, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

He has also referred to adoption by gay parents as a form of discrimination against children.
 
Linux

**Your never going to learn. **

And you apparently are never going to learn that sodomy is evil and should be called such rather than by the phoney euphemism “gay.”

Satan is on a rampage against Western Civilization … and he will destroy all the children any way he can … by aborting them or by corrupting them with sodomite “parents”.

And that apparently is just fine with you? :confused:
 
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