Already Gone... Lk.16:8/Mt.10:16

[twinc]

This sounds really stressing… what was the actual number of Catholics leaving the Faith?

Maran atha!

Angel

the researchs/surveys are about our young ones viz school leavers etc just starting college,employment etc - twinc

 

[twinc]

So you believe that 97% of Catholics leave the Faith… yearly? :banghead:

Maran atha!

Angel

No - please re read it carefully - twinc

 

[twinc]

The “survey” and “data” provided by this OP is just not reliable. The second number cited is totally illogical. What does 97% of “Catholic School Leavers” mean? Where? Who did the survey? It just doesn’t make sense.

There are several reliable reports that one can find that indicate that 68% of young Catholics remain in the Church into adulthood, not leave. Another study says that about 2/3 of Catholic young people do “break away” for a period of time but most of those come back, so that the net “loss” is really about 1/4. The first and last numbers seem to support each other, which would lead me to think they are generally reliable.

The other side of it is understanding that some of that “loss” is made up by those who convert to Catholicism. We can see that process occurring right here on these forums.

The final point is that the Catholic Church is not unique in this regard. Some reports indicate that losses of young people by some Protestant denominations is even higher.

This is not to belittle the issue of young people leaving their faith, but we shouldn’t exaggerate it out of proportion to reality. The important questions to ask (and try to answer) are: Why, and what can be done about it?

the important question has been asked and awaits an answer,whilst some might even want to fiddle with facts and figures whilst Rome in GB burns as a Crisis in the Church - do not be too complacent for tomorrow it is on your doorstep - as per usual the Catholic Church is slow off the mark and has not produced a DVD or VIDEO like the one that can be seen and heard on your computer.Just use your search box and type in State of the Nation - answersingenesis.For info re 97% Catholic school leavers try www.proecclesia.com and go to “the flock” newsletter Vol 12 No.3 Autumn 2008 - twinc

 

[twinc]

the important question has been asked and awaits an answer,whilst some might even want to fiddle with facts and figures whilst Rome in GB burns as a Crisis in the Church - do not be too complacent for tomorrow it is on your doorstep - as per usual the Catholic Church is slow off the mark and has not produced a DVD or VIDEO like the one that can be seen and heard on your computer.Just use your search box and type in State of the Nation - answersingenesis.For info re 97% Catholic school leavers try www.proecclesia.com and go to “the flock” newsletter Vol 12 No.3 Autumn 2008 - twinc

correction:- try State of the Nation - Answers in Genesis - twinc

 

[Bob_Crowley]

well thank you for your contribution and whilst what you say is good and true it does not answer what the research/survey also revealed and is really disturbing “those with the most and best Christian (name removed by moderator)ut fell away in the greatest number”.Imho and as a result of the survey/research this seems to indicate that more of the same is the problem and not quite the answer - twinc

Those with the “most and best Christian (name removed by moderator)ut” would also be those who had, generally speaking, the greatest natural gifts. As such, they would have more lucrative temptations beckoning them away from the church and into the world. If a young man is thinking of the pastorate, and somebody comes along and says, “If you work for us in law, or business, we’ll pay you ten times what you’d earn as a pastor”, a lot of them would work for the more lucrtive position.

My old Protestant pastor, a very gifted man, brought up a family of wife and six sons on a wage below the poverty line. He “nearly starved” in his own words. Not one of his remaining sons, all of whom have remained committed Christians (one committed suicide - he had manic depression), and all quite gifted in some form or another, went into direct Christian ministry. They had no desire to follow in such harrowing circumstances.

Other than that, Christ’s parable still stands, along with my other comments.

I can’ t point to my own family as an example as my father, although brought up in the Catholic faith, lost his own faith. But in his case, he grew up in a major depression, and then fought in the Second World War, with the example of the Holocaust and the nuclear bomb to make him wonder where God was. I’m not sure of my mother’s reason, but I suspect the loss of her brother in the 1919 Spanish Flu epidemic, her sister a few years later from meningitis, and the loss of her then boyfriend on the HMAS Sydney, bred resentment at God.

So neither my sister or I had Christian or Church upbringing to start with.

However my wife’s parents were strong Christians. Of their four children, two practise their Christian. The other two, whilst having very strong morals and being good men, are not practising Christians in the worship sense. My wife and I don’t have children, being a bit late for that in marriage. But of the eleven children only three were really brought up in the church, and of them, only one is a practising Christian.

Generally speaking they’re high achievers. And I can’t believe how much support their families have given them, when I look back at my own father’s deliberate attempt to wreck everything.

Yet from grandparents who were both committed Christians, only one out of eleven grandchildren have remained Christian. And frankly, part of the reason is that we’ve got it too easy.

I don’t see a revival coming unless there is a major, prolonged crisis. I can easily see where such a crisis or crises might come from, and I sometimes wonder why God is taking so long. We think we’re OK, but it’s only a couple of years since the financial system took a hammering due to greed.

There is also Israel / Palestine, Iran, North Korea, Pakistan / Afghanistan, growing inbalances in trade, the massive US deficit and western deficits in general, Islam and oil, climate change (I’m curious as to why nobody seems to have mentioned the Gulf Stream slowing down in respect to the freezing conditions in the northern hemisphere.), energy and resources wars, an arms race in the SE Asian area, population pressures, and so on. There are several potential flashpoints and plenty of fuel for a conflagration.

Yet somehow we seem, so far, to be still on the tightrope. But I wonder if God plans to push us off in the not too distant future.

 

[twinc]

Those with the “most and best Christian (name removed by moderator)ut” would also be those who had, generally speaking, the greatest natural gifts. As such, they would have more lucrative temptations beckoning them away from the church and into the world. If a young man is thinking of the pastorate, and somebody comes along and says, “If you work for us in law, or business, we’ll pay you ten times what you’d earn as a pastor”, a lot of them would work for the more lucrtive position.

My old Protestant pastor, a very gifted man, brought up a family of wife and six sons on a wage below the poverty line. He “nearly starved” in his own words. Not one of his remaining sons, all of whom have remained committed Christians (one committed suicide - he had manic depression), and all quite gifted in some form or another, went into direct Christian ministry. They had no desire to follow in such harrowing circumstances.

Other than that, Christ’s parable still stands, along with my other comments.

I can’ t point to my own family as an example as my father, although brought up in the Catholic faith, lost his own faith. But in his case, he grew up in a major depression, and then fought in the Second World War, with the example of the Holocaust and the nuclear bomb to make him wonder where God was. I’m not sure of my mother’s reason, but I suspect the loss of her brother in the 1919 Spanish Flu epidemic, her sister a few years later from meningitis, and the loss of her then boyfriend on the HMAS Sydney, bred resentment at God.

So neither my sister or I had Christian or Church upbringing to start with.

However my wife’s parents were strong Christians. Of their four children, two practise their Christian. The other two, whilst having very strong morals and being good men, are not practising Christians in the worship sense. My wife and I don’t have children, being a bit late for that in marriage. But of the eleven children only three were really brought up in the church, and of them, only one is a practising Christian.

Generally speaking they’re high achievers. And I can’t believe how much support their families have given them, when I look back at my own father’s deliberate attempt to wreck everything.

Yet from grandparents who were both committed Christians, only one out of eleven grandchildren have remained Christian. And frankly, part of the reason is that we’ve got it too easy.

I don’t see a revival coming unless there is a major, prolonged crisis. I can easily see where such a crisis or crises might come from, and I sometimes wonder why God is taking so long. We think we’re OK, but it’s only a couple of years since the financial system took a hammering due to greed.

There is also Israel / Palestine, Iran, North Korea, Pakistan / Afghanistan, growing inbalances in trade, the massive US deficit and western deficits in general, Islam and oil, climate change (I’m curious as to why nobody seems to have mentioned the Gulf Stream slowing down in respect to the freezing conditions in the northern hemisphere.), energy and resources wars, an arms race in the SE Asian area, population pressures, and so on. There are several potential flashpoints and plenty of fuel for a conflagration.

Yet somehow we seem, so far, to be still on the tightrope. But I wonder if God plans to push us off in the not too distant future.

Be prepared[1 Peter 3:15] to give an answer[Matt.10:16] to those who mock and jeer[Lk.16:8] "you dont believe or accept that rubbish for the Bible is full of contradictions and errors,lies,exagerrations and fairytales and myths of Adam and Eve and Noah and a global flood and six days of creation and dinosaurs on the Ark and cannot be accepted as historical or scientifically reliable,So our children and adults,already in doubt agree with them and walk away from the Church and its supposed nonsense.They and we have not been prepared to give an answer as advised by our Pope Peter - any help to make sure they and we are prepared from now on to give an answer - any useful comments - twinc

 

[NHInsider]

The “survey” and “data” provided by this OP is just not reliable. The second number cited is totally illogical. What does 97% of “Catholic School Leavers” mean? Where? Who did the survey? It just doesn’t make sense.

There are several reliable reports that one can find that indicate that 68% of young Catholics remain in the Church into adulthood, not leave. Another study says that about 2/3 of Catholic young people do “break away” for a period of time but most of those come back, so that the net “loss” is really about 1/4. The first and last numbers seem to support each other, which would lead me to think they are generally reliable.

This is a case of “two great peoples divided by a common tongue” -

in Britain, “school-leavers” is a term for people who - leave school, when they are finished. The nearest American equivalent would be “recent graduates” although the two terms are not perfectly equivalent.

Unquestionably the situation in Britain is worse than it is in the US, which is still a much more religious society than any of Europe with the possible exception of Poland, if studies are to be believed.

And yet it is true that we see many of our young people “walking away” from the faith as they start their adult lives. Many do return later, but many do not. I think that is the issue Twinc is trying to get us to address.

My own opinion is that we do a very bad job of catechizing, that we fail to challenge or excite kids when they are developmentally ready to be challenged and excited - right in that 15-18 bracked where we tend to drop them completely, frequently after giving them pablum for two years in “preparation” for Confirmation.

I’m afraid I don’t have any brilliant suggestions to contribute, however. . . .

 

[twinc]

This is a case of “two great peoples divided by a common tongue” -

in Britain, “school-leavers” is a term for people who - leave school, when they are finished. The nearest American equivalent would be “recent graduates” although the two terms are not perfectly equivalent.

Unquestionably the situation in Britain is worse than it is in the US, which is still a much more religious society than any of Europe with the possible exception of Poland, if studies are to be believed.

And yet it is true that we see many of our young people “walking away” from the faith as they start their adult lives. Many do return later, but many do not. I think that is the issue Twinc is trying to get us to address.

My own opinion is that we do a very bad job of catechizing, that we fail to challenge or excite kids when they are developmentally ready to be challenged and excited - right in that 15-18 bracked where we tend to drop them completely, frequently after giving them pablum for two years in “preparation” for Confirmation.

I’m afraid I don’t have any brilliant suggestions to contribute, however. . . .

NHI - You have,here,already contributed brilliantly.Do not,however,become too complacent over there for it seems the same crisis is starting to hit America.It seems the wells that were dug by your founding fathers are being blocked up - as suggested elsewhere type, The State of the Nation - Answers in Genesis, in your search box and click for reliable Christian research/survey and for all Catholic research/survey see www.proecclesia.com archive newsletter “Crisis in the Church”] -Vol.12 No.3 Autumn 2008 - twinc

 

[JRKH]

The “survey” and “data” provided by this OP is just not reliable. The second number cited is totally illogical. What does 97% of “Catholic School Leavers” mean? Where? Who did the survey? It just doesn’t make sense.

There are several reliable reports that one can find that indicate that 68% of young Catholics remain in the Church into adulthood, not leave. Another study says that about 2/3 of Catholic young people do “break away” for a period of time but most of those come back, so that the net “loss” is really about 1/4. The first and last numbers seem to support each other, which would lead me to think they are generally reliable.

The other side of it is understanding that some of that “loss” is made up by those who convert to Catholicism. We can see that process occurring right here on these forums.

The final point is that the Catholic Church is not unique in this regard. Some reports indicate that losses of young people by some Protestant denominations is even higher.

Nicely put

Polls and statistics always need to be carefully read to discover what is really being said.

This is not to belittle the issue of young people leaving their faith, but we shouldn’t exaggerate it out of proportion to reality. The important questions to ask (and try to answer) are: Why, and what can be done about it?

The why is multifold but boils down to one simple fact. Too many “people of faith”, whether Catholic or not, don’t live their faith as an integral part of their lives. Young people see this and react to the inconsistancies by rebelling and “finding their own way”

The solution is to reverse this trend. For Catholics to make their faith and it’s teachings, the core values in their lives. Faith is not for one hour of one day but for every minute of every day.
Raise children in this atmosphere of Love and Christian values and there is a much better chance they won’t leave, or if they do, they will return someday.

 

[spockrates]

negative is it - somebody better be quick before too late with only 3% left - lets just close our eyes and it will go away or lets be more positive and stop bothering and just say an Our Father, a Hail Mary and a Glory Be and everything will be alright - twinc

I’d prefer to call your post realistic!



There is a real problem that requires a real commitment to figuring out how to best resolve it in the communities in which we live.

 

[spockrates]

Originally Posted by **John7 **

Twinc:

I think it fascinating that Jesus says the children of the world (non-Catholics and other non-Christians) are wiser than the children of the light (Catholics and other Christians). Isn’t it wise to believe in the truth? In what way do you think non-Catholics are wiser than Catholics?

 

[twinc]

Nicely put

Polls and statistics always need to be carefully read to discover what is really being said.

The why is multifold but boils down to one simple fact. Too many “people of faith”, whether Catholic or not, don’t live their faith as an integral part of their lives. Young people see this and react to the inconsistancies by rebelling and “finding their own way”

The solution is to reverse this trend. For Catholics to make their faith and it’s teachings, the core values in their lives. Faith is not for one hour of one day but for every minute of every day.
Raise children in this atmosphere of Love and Christian values and there is a much better chance they won’t leave, or if they do, they will return someday.

what must be seriously considered and acted upon is not what we may suspect as the cause or cure but what the research/survey revealed after consulting with those who had left and the reasons why etc - straight from the horse’s mouth so to speak from the actual source etc - twinc

 

[Joycelyn6]

In the survey twinc is referring to, no Catholics were even interviewed. Not to say that the Catholic Church doesn’t have problems attracting and/or retaining young people, but twinc seems to want to keep forcing (or requesting) an answer on data that doesn’t even apply to Catholics. It’s obvious twinc has bought into the whole YEC line of argumentation and by trying to send people to the links of “State of the nation” and the book “Already Gone” is trying to convince others of the arguments that the author (Ken Ham) makes. Yes, all this is speculative on my part, but since twinc has done a good job of turning away all the very good and real multi-faceted reasons why young people leave the church (and deny the reality that many return) twinc seems to be fishing (dare I say trolling) for something else.
In truth, Ken Ham spends a whole book addressing a solution to a problem that his own referenced study does not support. Short version - Sunday School teachers MUST push the YEC agenda!!! Otherwise our kids will leave the church. However, the real data does not bear this out as the reason why the young people left. Reasons range from “boring services” to legalism and hypocritical church leaders.

The church has always had peaks and valleys in it’s history, there was a time when more people adhered to a Christian heresy than to orthodox Christianity (I forget the heresy; my apologies).
I know what the answer isn’t (Ken Ham’s strategy of pitting the bible against science)
I know what my job is, to look after me and mine
I know God’s Word is true - “and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it”

Peace,
Joyce

 

[PJM]

=twinc;6296718]a recent reliable Christian research/survey revealed that 2/3rds of Christian youths fell away from their Christian faith before starting college or employment. A reliable all Catholic research/survey showed 97% of Catholic school leavers walk away from the Church each year.Sadly and alas,it seems those with the best Christian background and education fell away in the greatest numbers.The cause has been pin pointed and the remedy suggested - anyone here care to suggest what could be the cause and a remedy or cure - twinc

The road to hell is an EASY, slippery, FUN road. While the road to heaven is uphill, full of potholes, rocks, and struggle. “Easier is better” I suspect because of the mostly inadiquate “Catholic Education” [mostly taught by non-religious] that fail to explain that “heaven and hell” are REAL… and ETERINITY is a REALLY LONG TIME.

The 2008 PEW Report shares that in 1970 about 75% of self professed Catholics attended Sunday Holy day Mass as obligated. By 2008 that number had dropped to about
about 25%.

A GREAT many kids are in PRIVATE [key word] catholic schools bcause of the often pathetic education in the Public sector in many prts of America. There placement is is fo he education more so than the religious upbringing.

 

[twinc]

In the survey twinc is referring to, no Catholics were even interviewed. Not to say that the Catholic Church doesn’t have problems attracting and/or retaining young people, but twinc seems to want to keep forcing (or requesting) an answer on data that doesn’t even apply to Catholics. It’s obvious twinc has bought into the whole YEC line of argumentation and by trying to send people to the links of “State of the nation” and the book “Already Gone” is trying to convince others of the arguments that the author (Ken Ham) makes. Yes, all this is speculative on my part, but since twinc has done a good job of turning away all the very good and real multi-faceted reasons why young people leave the church (and deny the reality that many return) twinc seems to be fishing (dare I say trolling) for something else.
In truth, Ken Ham spends a whole book addressing a solution to a problem that his own referenced study does not support. Short version - Sunday School teachers MUST push the YEC agenda!!! Otherwise our kids will leave the church. However, the real data does not bear this out as the reason why the young people left. Reasons range from “boring services” to legalism and hypocritical church leaders.

The church has always had peaks and valleys in it’s history, there was a time when more people adhered to a Christian heresy than to orthodox Christianity (I forget the heresy; my apologies).
I know what the answer isn’t (Ken Ham’s strategy of pitting the bible against science)
I know what my job is, to look after me and mine
I know God’s Word is true - “and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it”

Peace,
Joyce

okay - so lets all go back to sleep again and in our slumber dream that all is well.If we are only concerned with Catholic facts and figures it gets worse and not better.97% of Catholic school leavers are walking away from the Church each year.It seems that the children and adults of darkness are wiser than the children and adults of light,Our children and adults are being confronted and convinced that they have been taught and accepted errors,lies,exagerrations,fairy tales etc and many are convinced that this is so.They have not been prepared “to be prepared to give an answer to anyone who asks” as suggested by our first Pope in his first encyclical at 1 Peter 3:15 - btw the heresy alluded to was the Arian heresy - the Church awoke to find itself Arian and it will hoprfully awake again to find itself Evolutionary - no Adam and Eve,or global flood or six days of creation etc - twinc

 

[abucs]

I think twinc, many Catholics in the West have seen this “turning away from the Church for largely superficial reasons” as a serious problem and are becoming teachers and clergy themselves in order to address the situation. Perhaps this is the cyclical nature of the Church ?

 

[Teresa_Lee]

The road to Hell Already gone :tsktsk: Statistics based on what

I don’t want to start anything here, but last I checked, statistics weren’t in charge of reading my heart. Faith is a winding road with all sorts of things taking place. Each one of us lives a unique life. This idea of citing stats, bible verses and Catholic rules really goes against the grain for me. We’re supposed to be building each other up, not finding reasons to boost our own egos or judge others.

Maybe I’m way off base here, but the tone I get from this entire discussion is rather disturbing. I believe in Hell, and I know a lot of people end up there (Fatima). I also know a lot of cradle catholics are stagnant or misinformed about their faith. Taking a personal approach to get to know a personal God is (imo) very healthy, regardless of where it takes you and what you have to do to realize the love that loved you into existence and saved you from yourself.

Suffice to say, only God knows the heart. We’re probably better off saying an Act of Contrition that debating who has found favor with Him.

Teresa
p.s. Right now God has me studying the Catholic Catechism and blogging about it. You’re welcome to read my blog and post your comments

 

[RedBert]

a recent reliable Christian research/survey revealed that 2/3rds of Christian youths fell away from their Christian faith before starting college or employment. A reliable all Catholic research/survey showed 97% of Catholic school leavers walk away from the Church each year.Sadly and alas,it seems those with the best Christian background and education fell away in the greatest numbers.The cause has been pin pointed and the remedy suggested - anyone here care to suggest what could be** the cause** and a remedy or cure - twinc

the Cause:

Children /youth leave church because their father did not attend
:
Men, Children and Church Attendance

Mother and Father attend church regularly
33% of their children will end up attending church regularly
41% of their children will end up attending church irregularly
25% of their children will end up not attending at all

Mother attends church regularly. Father attends church irregularly.
3% of their children will end up attending church regularly
59% of their children will end up attending church irregularly
38% of their children will end up not attending at all

Mother attends church regularly.** Father does not attend church at all.**
2% of their children will end up attending church regularly
37% of their children will end up attending church irregularly
60% of their children will end up not attending at all

Father attends church regularly. Mother attends church irregularly.
38% of their children will end up attending church regularly
37% of their children will end up attending church irregularly
26% of their children will end up not attending at all

Father attends church regularly. Mother does not attend church at all.
44% of their children will end up attending church regularly
22% of their children will end up attending church irregularly:

ironsharpensiron.net/file…attendance.pdf

If you get the fathers to come to church the youth will stay.
so the question is : why aren’t the men coming to church?:

• The typical U.S. Congregation draws an adult crowd that’s 61% female, 39% male. This gender gap shows up in all age categories.

• On any given Sunday there are 13 million more adult women than men in America’s churches.

• This Sunday almost 25 percent of married, churchgoing women will worship without their husbands.

• Midweek activities often draw 70 to 80 percent female participants.

• The majority of church employees are women (except for ordained clergy, who are overwhelmingly male).

• Over 70 percent of the boys who are being raised in church will abandon it during their teens and twenties. Many of these boys will never return.

• More than 90 percent of American men believe in God, and five out of six call themselves Christians. But only two out of six attend church on a given Sunday. The average man accepts the reality of Jesus Christ, but fails to see any value in going to church.

• Churches overseas report gender gaps of up to 9 women for every adult man in attendance.
• Christian universities are becoming convents. The typical Christian college in the U.S. enrolls almost 2 women for every 1 man.

• Fewer than 10% of U.S. churches are able to establish or maintain a vibrant men’s ministry.

 

[twinc]

The road to Hell Already gone :tsktsk: Statistics based on what

I don’t want to start anything here, but last I checked, statistics weren’t in charge of reading my heart. Faith is a winding road with all sorts of things taking place. Each one of us lives a unique life. This idea of citing stats, bible verses and Catholic rules really goes against the grain for me. We’re supposed to be building each other up, not finding reasons to boost our own egos or judge others.

Maybe I’m way off base here, but the tone I get from this entire discussion is rather disturbing. I believe in Hell, and I know a lot of people end up there (Fatima). I also know a lot of cradle catholics are stagnant or misinformed about their faith. Taking a personal approach to get to know a personal God is (imo) very healthy, regardless of where it takes you and what you have to do to realize the love that loved you into existence and saved you from yourself.

Suffice to say, only God knows the heart. We’re probably better off saying an Act of Contrition that debating who has found favor with Him.

Teresa
p.s. Right now God has me studying the Catholic Catechism and blogging about it. You’re welcome to read my blog and post your comments

 

[twinc]

twinc:
excuse me,but are you taking up a holier than thou stance without being aware of this stance - twinc