Altar Boys

[ncjohn]

Please don’t try and avoid the premise of the discussion by stating that I am attacking those good people who unknowingly allow their girls to do so today.

Don’t you see though that it is exactly these kinds of statements that are the problem?

“…who unknowingly allow their girls to do so today.” Again implying that if only they knew what YOU believe they would immediately know they are wrong and would immediately change their minds.

It just plain isn’t a matter of doing so “unknowingly”. They are knowingly doing something the Church says is alright. You just don’t get to judge them to be “good but ignorant” people for serving God in an accepted capacity.

It once again goes to setting one’s self up as judge that the practice is unacceptable and the Church just isn’t as Catholic enough to realize it. And that just isn’t the case. I’m not meaning to be offensive in saying that, but it gets old hearing that we should follow the Church…as long as it’s the things that I prefer.

The kids who are serving, and their parents, and the priests, are not doing anything wrong, knowingly or unknowingly. The Church has said it’s alright. Unless and until that changes we need to stop criticizing them.

I’ve said all I can say on this so I will just leave at this point so as not to further lose any sense of charity, or cause anyone else to.

Peace,

 

[Rykell]

Hi John, I hear you!

http://bestsmileys.com/frustrated/7.gif

 

[THurifer2]

My 4th Grade daughter will NOT be an altar boy…(or girl for that matter). I told her that the original reason for having youth (boys in particular) was to encourage vocations to the priesthood. I pointed out to her that the boys used to wear vestments called cassocks and surplices becuase they were clerical garb and it allowed for them to identify with the priesthood. After I told her this she completely agreed with me and told me that she didn’t feel like she wanted to serve anyway. My second grade son has already indicated to me that he can’t wait to be an altar boy…he also told me that he intends to be a Scientist AND a priest.

 

[jmcrae]

My second grade son has already indicated to me that he can’t wait to be an altar boy…he also told me that he intends to be a Scientist AND a priest.

Good for him!!

Has your daughter chosen what other area of service she will give to the Church?

 

[Brenda_V]

I just thought I would chime in here - as for the number of vocations in relation to Boy only Altar Servers vs. number of vocations and Boy & Girl Altar Servers.

My Parish used to be an all boy only Altar Server Parish, we saw one (1) Vocation, Male or Female. Not only that but this one Priest was raised in a different Parish.

We are now a Parish that about 15 years ago started having both Boy and Girl Altar Servers - the number of vocations coming from our Parish has increased incredibly. Of the 10 or so men we have in Seminary for the Archdiocese, 5 are from our Parish. We have also sent a number of young women off to Convents. We also have several young men and women now discerning for a Religious life - Priests, Brothers, Monks, Sisters, Nuns.

So, what does this say about vocations? My Parish is a very Orthodox Parish. We have good Catechesis. We also pray for Vocations, frequently, as a Parish and in small groups and individually.

Brenda V.

 

[jmcrae]

I must admit that all of the boys I know who have thought of the priesthood served at the Altar with both girls and boys.

There are also many good priests who never served at the Altar at all when they were young, so, clearly, this is not the only source of Vocations.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

I see no “evil intent” in female servers.

At my past parish, and in my present parish, there was a lack of servers of any gender. Girls came on board as servers. Now, there are enough.

Further, girls do not serve with boys in our parish. Period. End of story. It doesn’t matter if they’re short. It has to be boys with boys, and girls with girls.

It is the boys who carry the job through high school, much more so than girls. They don’t carry it through college unless they are attending locally.

And yes, we have a vocation or two or 4- not necessarily to the priesthood, but to religious life.

I don’t think a 5 year old of any age has the capacity to serve at the altar, to allow that as a norm. This is from my experience of seeing crops of 5 year olds every day, all year long.

 

[Uncle_David]

If that were the case there would probably be wording like “Girls or women may also be accepted if there are not sufficient boys available.”

Kinda like EMHC? They are to be used only when needed but have now become the norm because we are lacking in ordinary Ministers.

IMHO - I think the intent of girl altar servers is just that - if *there are not sufficient boys available. *

I have one son and two daughters. I would love for my son to become a priest. One way to encourage that is to have him on the altar assisting our priest. Unfortunately he only gets to serve about once every 2 months. The Mass we attend has 4 altar servers every Sunday. Sometimes they are all girls. I think there is something wrong there.

I am not against girl altar servers in the least bit! When I was an altar boy, I was the only one for YEARS. It would have been nice for anyone else to step in when I wasn’t feeling my best and then have to sit under the hot lights. However, I do not think girl altar servers should become the norm as EMHC have. (unless necessary).

 

[JackPaul]

Three cheers for a Priest that would do this… I wish my parish Priest would eliminate the alter girls and make it a boy only function. I suspect that this all happened out of need, because no boys were showing up. But, as it is now, we have 2:1 girls to boys doing this function. I have a 14 year old boy that is actually considering the priesthood and if he were able to server more often than once every two months, it might make a difference. But we have the indeferent girls, serving every week, who don’t really want to, but their parents make them… It is very frustrating to my son and to our family to see this happen, but perhaps he likes it all the more because he has to wait. I think the Priest who has eliminated the alter girls is a bit of a hero and more should follow his lead.

 

[THurifer2]

Has your daughter chosen what other area of service she will give to the Church?

Yes she helps her mother in decorating the church for various events. Her little sister is like that too. I am sure that when she gets older she will serve in a the similar and traditional fashion her mother does. She indicates to me that she will serve the church mostly in being a strong mother ( like her mom). My wife is a S.A.M. so outside of tending to the various needs of daily life at our home she also has time to be quite active in the extremely important behind the scenes stuff at our church which mostly involves the poor in which my daughter is at her moms side quite a bit during that.

With that in mind being an altar boy to me was not considered a service…when I was an altar boy it was on the job training and a mini apprenticeship for the priesthood in fact I specifically remember my childhood priest telling me that was the primary reason for altar boys (he must have been a liar or wrong). A priest can celebrate the mass without the assistance of the altar boys. One needs to look at the historical occurance of Altar boys…they were put up on the altar for the main reason of getting their feet wet for the priesthood…that mentality has changed and with that went some vocations.

 

[ncjohn]

I specifically remember my childhood priest telling me that was the primary reason for altar boys (he must have been a liar or wrong).

There are indeed priests who believe that, and for them that might indeed be the primary purpose. Exposing boys to altar service is certainly one way of involving them in Church life and learning about what priests do. I don’t see his belief making him either wrong or a liar, though there may be some question as to his belief being objective fact.

If your “vocation” was truly lost to girls serving, I have to believe that either someone let you down horribly in not giving you proper encouragement or you just didn’t really have a calling. Not everyone who considers the priesthood (or even the diaconate) is actually called to it, which is why there is such an intensive screening and discernment process. Having gone through consideration on one, and discernment on the other, I know from firsthand experience that it is a complex process. And of course not every true call is heeded, for many different reasons.

It sounds like you have become a very devoted husband and father, who is bringing up his children with a love of, and devotion to God. The fact that you are encouraging with your own son is to me the most important part of encouraging vocations, for without that parental encouragement for children to seek out God’s will, the odds of them finding it on their own is small. My wife and I went through a similar process with our son as a teenager. I think you are truly to be commended.

 

[ltbpoe43]

If the priest is the shepherd of his flock it seems logical he would do everything in his power to advocate and create channels that would encourage more males to the priestly service. Altar servers is one method of doing so, praying for vocations, discussing vocations during the homily, etc. are other opportunities to advocate young male adults to any calling.

Our parish is a fairly young parish and has an extremely high number of altar servers both girls and boys (approx 85) and the ratio is about right. We have 3 servers for each of 4 masses a weekend. Usually boys grouped together and girls grouped together unless brother and sister serve together. It seems to work fine and we have had a few boys go on to become priests - but not nearly enough.

 

[solanus]

I have a nephew who does not want to be an altar boy because there are “to many girls”. The pastor of this parish started allowing girl altar boys about 7 years ago . There was no shortage of boy altar servers it was a pure political move on his part. This parish is in the top two or three in the diocese and there have been 0 vocations since this pastor took over 15 years ago.

Being a former altar boy, 18 years ago at this same parish, I relate totally with my nephew, I thought it was the coolest thing in the world to be up there with father and actually assisting him during the Mass. If there were any girls involved it would not have been so cool or exciting/appealing.

Today I watch the altar boys at this same parish and they sit there and do nothing to assist the mass except during the entrance and the end of mass. It seems more of a “chore” then a “club” for these young men. There is nothing appealing left at this particular parish.

 

[jmcrae]

Being a former altar boy, 18 years ago at this same parish, I relate totally with my nephew, I thought it was the coolest thing in the world to be up there with father and actually assisting him during the Mass. If there were any girls involved it would not have been so cool or exciting/appealing.

This is the sort of thing that makes me very angry. Why are girls seen as either aliens or inferiors? As if girls are “interloping” in the world, and that their existence is a huge inconvenience to the “real people” - the boys? This is not the mind of the Church. The Church teaches that girls, too, are icons of God, created in His image, and with His dignity.

Do either you or your nephew realize that Mother Mary is a woman? That she was a girl of about 14 years of age when she was given the awesome privilege of carrying Jesus in her womb?

God did not ban Mary from being near Jesus when she was a young girl. That should teach us something, shouldn’t it?

 

[THurifer2]

This is the sort of thing that makes me very angry. Why are girls seen as either aliens or inferiors? As if girls are “interloping” in the world, and that their existence is a huge inconvenience to the “real people” - the boys? it?

Easy there…Donna Stichen and Alice Von Hildebrand both have mentioned the Feminism with the contrived notion of “inferiority” when the topic of women and their role in the church. Your anger response is almost to the T of their reasoning. I have no idea if you know who those two women are but one of them is a modern day theological Giant. Alice ( who is so highly thought of that Pope benedict AND JPII wanted a private meeting with her) has mentioned the deceiptful notion that just because the role of women is defined differently than men they are somehow inferior. In her own words she finds that notion insulting to the real feminine. Both women are very outspoken on the destruction of real feminism at the hands of the Modern day psuedo feminist movement.

Alice Von Hildebrand in her writing on SACREDNESS OF TRADITION points out her disdain for “allowing” altar girls. In fact she mentions the in 1980 JPII actually forbid it with the publication of Inaestimabile Donum. WIth that in mind I base my opinion on Tradition…recently reinforced by a thorough study of JPII’s Theology of the Body…which is an absolutely awesome awesome read.

 

[jmcrae]

Easy there…Donna Stichen and Alice Von Hildebrand both have mentioned the Feminism with the contrived notion of “inferiority” when the topic of women and their role in the church.

The part that makes me angry isn’t that girls shouldn’t serve. That part is no big deal to me.

It’s the reasoning that it’s “okay” and “understandable” for boys to hate and fear girls so much that they can’t stand to be doing the same things as girls.

When girls react that way to boys, they get their bums paddled raw, and sent to their rooms without any supper.

Why is it “okay” for boys to react that way to girls? Why is this seen as "the reason" for refusing girls at the Altar? We do not accept such attitudes from girls toward boys. Girls who react that way to boys are punished and shunned - not rewarded with extra privileges.

Why the double standard?

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

The only thing that proves is that some people did it before it was approved. Unless you can cite the circumstances you cannot prove any wilfull disobedience. It may well have come from parishes that had no boys to serve and somebody volunteered girls, not thinking there was any big deal to it. I don’t know, and I have yet to see anyone document the circumstances other than by innuendo.
See above. If you can document that, please do.

Again, if you have documentation of there being “evil intent” please provide it. If not, you are casting aspersions on people’s character without facts and those statements should cease.

Ok. I got the impression you were questioning the prudence of the girls who were serving and couldn’t understand why. I see you here questioning the prudence of having options available at all, or of changing from the Tridentine traditions (400-500 years, not bimillenial–but that’s a whole different topic ).

I’m not about implying any sort of evil intent to those utilizing or serving as female altar servers now, but scylla does have a point that should at least be conceded in part: there was not a single pastor in the United States unaware of the prohibition of female altar servers. Maybe you could find a priest simplex who was, maybe some laymen knew they weren’t used but thought it was just tradition, not a rule. The priests who jumped the gun on the indult, though, knew they were beign disobedient. I bet none of the girls knew it and only some of the parents, but the priests sure did.

(on our different topic, though, restricting the sanctuary to males is a bimillenial tradition )

 

[JPII_the_Great]

A lot of very interesting comments. Thank you.

One that that I forgot to mention in my original post is that the priest that is going to all altar boys has decided to set up an alternate “organization” for the girls called “philothea.” Since it is in the formative stages I can’t say that I know very much about it in terms of what it is going to do. In addition, as far as the altar boys are concerned, my priest is having them not just focus on being altar boys at mass but also emphasizing that as an altar boy that they should be deepening their spiritual lives, and he is working with the them (I would assume on a somewhat personal level) on this as well. The idea is help them deepen their relationship with Christ. This is also one of the components of Philothea.

Interestingly, this priest is very young (early 30’s - only ordained 6 years ago) and is part of a relatively new religious order from Spain called Jesus Christ the Priest.

 

[ChooseLife]

We have chosen Catholic homeschooling to foster a priestly vocation in our son, if that be God’s Will. Our parish allows girl altar servers, and we had already explained to our son that he would never be allowed to serve with girls. The problem we now have is that the altar server training is for boys and girls. We asked our priest if he would consider boys only, and he said No. Now we are faced with no training, no serving and possibly having to move to the one parish in this diocese that has only boys, which is a 45-minute drive–well worth the effort, we know. I know girl altar servers are “allowed”, but why wouldn’t a priest consider training and having Masses that are only boy altar servers? Any suggestions?

 

[Brendan]

I don’t think a 5 year old of any age has the capacity to serve at the altar, to allow that as a norm. This is from my experience of seeing crops of 5 year olds every day, all year long.

Then you need to come to my parish and see them in action. We even had a 4 year old (he’s now 5)

Every Sunday you will see several 5-6 year olds serve Mass.

They have such a strong desire to be like the older boys and they really strive to emulate them. Even their behavior at Mass.

Here are some pics from one of our Sunday Masses (from a different thread).

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1721749&postcount=236

At one of those Masses, my 8 year old son and another 9 year old boy ‘mentored’ the serving 4 year old. They pointed out where he should stand and assisted him in presenting the lavabo towel to the priest after he washed his hands.