By the way it is MaryANN but anyway. It matters not if it is one or 2 different venues , I was trying to make very clear what infact you say that you do believe** but perhaps I misunderstood you so let me get this correct **…you were NOT saying that just because people BELIEVE/have faith that the bread and wine are Jesus makes the bread and wine so? In which case you were agreeing with the point I was trying to make that the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist at a Catholic mass has NOTHING to do with what we believe in faith OR perceive.
To me your post seemed to indicate a ‘well I believe we have it right but they have their own beliefs and who are we to be able to change them’ sort of attitude. I wholeheartedly disagree with your last point that one can not by argument, or let us say discussion , change a persons understanding and bring them to a proper understanding of the truth. If that were the case none of us would be here and the Church would not exist because the apostles and early evangelists would not have had any converts either!! Your point completely baffles me because it is so illogical.
Ann,
It matters not…to you. Understand that.
The best way to clarify a belief is to ask. You did not. I suggest a direct question for a direct answer.
But perhaps I misunderstood you negates everything you said before and therefore I would agree that you misunderstood me.
You are not saying that what you believe causes the sacrament to be the sacrament are you? The answer is equivalent to the question. No.
I wholeheartedly disagree. This reminds me of the movie a few good. Men…“I object”…noted…“your honor I strenously object”…ading words to what you declare degrades the intention…You disagree…noted.
A proper understanding of the truth. That is interesting.
Look at some basics here and I will guide you to an example of which I speak when I find it.
Ask yourself this question…
What is a belief? My answer is it is a filter…this is based on NLP…
nlpcoaching.com/nlp-commmunication.html
Beliefs:
The next filter is beliefs. Beliefs are generalizations about how the world is. One of the important elements in modeling is to find a person’s beliefs about the particular behavior we are trying to model. Richard Bandler says “Beliefs are those things we can’t get around.” Beliefs are the presuppositions that we have about the way the world is that either create or deny personal power to us. So, beliefs are essentially our on/off switch for our ability to do anything in the world. In the process of working with someone’s beliefs, it’s important to elicit or find out what beliefs they have that cause them to do what they do. We also want to find out the disabling beliefs, the ones that do not allow them to do what they want to do.
Understand that when you communicate that there are certain rules operating whether you know it or not…we are in effect speaking different languages in our communication.
Understand that a belief is a filter that does something to information based on that belief. You may not agree, you may not like it, you may not understand it…but this is fact that is predictable and can be understood by observation.
Next ask yourself how is it I come to believe anything…
- Fact
- Assumption
- False Conclusion
If you can think of another way I am open to that however I believe that this is it…
Step off a building and you will fall to the ground because you know gravity is in effect. Fact therefore you do not step off a building because you believe you will fall.
I have never touched a stove that is hot and I assume that flesh will not burn. Assumption that will be clarified by fact.
I have read about all the information I need from the Yogi’s that electricity is a charge of nature and when I put my finger in a light socket I conclude it will energize me and I will get smarter. False conclusion that will lead to fact that will allow you to get smarter.
The Eucharist is based on an assumption. There is no way to prove it as fact. The miracles persuade you and me but not others. So is it a fact?
The Lords Supper everywhere else outside the validiy of consecration gives grace. I conclude that this is a false assumption. Here is the kicker…it has been my experience that Lutherans, in particular JohnNC…believes it to be a source of grace…am I to ridicule him…degrade him…after much dialogue I came to the conclusion based on what I read that whether he concludes falsely or not is not for me to determine for him. He sees it as a source of grace. I disagree…the arguments are all over this website…I don’t see him changing his mind…I see a deep love for Christ, I see Charity, I see support of the Catholic Faith…so what is the point of arguing with a Lutheran that is strong in their Faith that often times rallies to the support of the views of the OHCAC…does he receive grace…I do not know…I pray that he does…Lord help not my belief…help my unbelief.
God is impartial and God of all Catholic, Lutheran, etc…all that are baptized are in the New Covenant…those that disagree with you have the gifts of Faith, Hope and Charity…you will see the fruits of those gifts…so your brother does not accept your view…no amount of argument is going to change their mind…
You will see when I provide that example that “only you can change your mind”
