Altar Calls-Non-Catholic/Orthodox

[PRmerger]

Believing that someone can interpret the Bible privately does not mean that a person’s interpretation is not subject to some kind of authority. Protestants submit to the authority of their churches just as much as Catholics submit to their. As a Pentecostal, I don’t agree with everything my church does, but I stay there because I recognize that I need spiritual leadership.

Any Protestant or Catholic can refuse to submit to the authority of their church. That doesn’t make them “good Protestants” or “good Catholics.” It makes them Protestants or Catholics who refused to submit to their church’s authority and left.

Ahhhhh! I am so pleased to read this!!

The Church is the authority. Not Scripture.

Because an inanimate object, no matter how holy, cannot be an authority.

So now this prompts the question: why would you follow an authority that is fallible, and claims to be so, when there is an authority that is infallible?

 

[ltwin]

A Protestant is being a good Protestant when he says, “I cannot agree with my fallible pastor’s interpretation of the Bible. The Holy Spirit has told me how to interpret that verse, and my interpretation is in direct contradiction to my pastor’s, therefore I am bound to leave this erroneous teaching. That is what a good Bible Alone Christian does.”

That is not what I have done. There are tons of things I don’t like about my church. I don’t leave it though.

A Catholic is being a bad Catholic when he says, “I cannot agree with the infallible Church’s interpretation of the Bible. The Holy Spirit has told me how to interpret that verse, and my interpretation is in direct contradiction to the Magisterium.” The Catholic Church would say this person is bound to give religious assent to the teaching that he disagrees with. That is what a good Catholic does.

A Protestant is just as capable of submitting to church authority as a Catholic is. And Catholics are just as capable of disregarding church authority as Protestants are.

 

[Nicea325]

I see on post #173 that you said that some Pentecostal denominations forbid divorce. Some do not.

That is about as nebulous as saying, in response to the question: “What is the Republican party’s position on immigration?”

“Some like it. Some do not.”

So in essence, there really isn’t any one “set- in- stone” consensus?

 

[JonNC]

So in essence, there really isn’t any one “set- in- stone” consensus?

Hey guys,
I don’t know how specific the rules are for annulments, but aren’t they, too, done on a case by case basis?

Jon

 

[Nicea325]

Luther’s was based on so much more than scripture:
"Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.
Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.”

Jon

Oh I know Luther was not teaching it was not literal. I was just mentioning Luther and Calvin because I know Calvin held a different position.

 

[Nicea325]

Hey guys,
I don’t know how specific the rules are for annulments, but aren’t they, too, done on a case by case basis?

Jon

You know what Jon, that is a fair question to ask and I not being a priest would agree with you. I could be totally wrong?

 

[Nicea325]

Believing that someone can interpret the Bible privately does not mean that a person’s interpretation is not subject to some kind of authority. Protestants submit to the authority of their churches just as much as Catholics submit to their. As a Pentecostal, I don’t agree with everything my church does, but I stay there because I recognize that I need spiritual leadership.

Any Protestant or Catholic can refuse to submit to the authority of their church. That doesn’t make them “good Protestants” or “good Catholics.” It makes them Protestants or Catholics who refused to submit to their church’s authority and left.

So authority resides with the church-right?

 

[JonNC]

Oh I know Luther was not teaching it was not literal. I was just mentioning Luther and Calvin because I know Calvin held a different position.

I know you and PR know this stuff (you’ve heard it from me ad-nauseum ). I’m just thinking of the lurkers out there.

Jon

 

[Nicea325]

I know you and PR know this stuff (you’ve heard it from me ad-nauseum ). I’m just thinking of the lurkers out there.

Jon

Oh yes…good thing you posted the information so new comers will not get the facts all mixed up.

 

[ltwin]

Hhhm? Well if they believed their interpretation was the correct one, evidently they had a different understanding/meaning to specific terms, hence a different interpretation from orthodoxy. If they didn’t then it would not be called heterodoxy. Again, Luther and Calvin never saw eye-to-eye about the Eucharist and why?

Because they understood the Bible differently I suppose. I’m not an expert on the Scriptures and traditions they looked to to support their arguments. But the fact that they disagreed so vehemently indicates that they did not believe in “multiple meanings” of Scripture.

Well yes, I picked a bad choice of words there. I mean, division is always bad. Aaahh…let us not generalize “burning” at the stake as only a Catholic practice. I can provide you plenty of stake burnings conducted by Protestants.

I’m not generalizing anything. I said, “establishment” which could have been Catholic or Protestant. If Pentecostals had existed during the Reformation, I have a feeling that we would have been victims of both Catholic and Protestant “establishments.”

Okay,but I do not think the above truly answers my argument. Again, it would be like a teacher, teaching the students circles and triangles are the exact same shapes. How are the students accountable,if they are barely learning about shapes?

A teacher would have more responsibility. They will be held accountable to God for what they have taught and who they have deceived. The people listening are responsible for what they choose to believe. A “novice” being deceived by false teaching would have less guilt than someone who had grown up in church all their life and had read the Bible through several times. But we are all responsible for what we choose to believe.

 

[ltwin]

If I were that pastor I would vehemently fight any removal from my office with this statement: but I am only doing that which the Bible Alone advocates declare I can do.

Well the Bible alone advocates don’t pay his salary. The tithes of the members of the church pay his salary.

 

[PRmerger]

That is not what I have done. There are tons of things I don’t like about my church. I don’t leave it though.

And I give you kudos for this, ltwin. You have my highest respect in this aspect. You are conforming your views to your church, rather than church shopping (or starting your own church ) to find a church that conforms to your own personal views.

But remember, if they are a fallible church, they are going to be wrong at some point.

I would never want to conform my views to a church that is going to be wrong at some point.

A Protestant is just as capable of submitting to church authority as a Catholic is.

Again, I am so heartened to hear this. In the past what I have heard was that Scripture, not the church, held the authority.

As we can see, Scripture cannot be an authority, as it lacks a will and a means of self-interpretation.

And Catholics are just as capable of disregarding church authority as Protestants are.

And when they do that they are being disobedient. It is not part of the paradigm of Catholicism, while those who say that Scripture is their authority can, indeed, disregard their church.

 

[PRmerger]

Well the Bible alone advocates don’t pay his salary. The tithes of the members of the church pay his salary.

He should be pointing out their hypocrisy if they fired him.

 

[ltwin]

So in essence, there really isn’t any one “set- in- stone” consensus?

There are different Pentecostal denominations that have their own policies. There are general patterns, which I discuss, but it would be a stretch for me to say that all Pentecostal churches have the same approach to handling these matters.

 

[PRmerger]

Hey guys,
I don’t know how specific the rules are for annulments, but aren’t they, too, done on a case by case basis?

Jon

Yes, they are done on a case by case basis.

But, as you stated, there are specific rules. So if a Catholic married at 14, outside the church, to a man who had been married before, I can be quite certain that this union will be annulled.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Hhhm? Well if they believed their interpretation was the correct one, evidently they had a different understanding/meaning to specific terms, hence a different interpretation from orthodoxy. If they didn’t then it would not be called heterodoxy. Again, Luther and Calvin never saw eye-to-eye about the Eucharist and why?

Itwin:
Because they understood the Bible differently I suppose. I’m not an expert on the Scriptures and traditions they looked to to support their arguments. But the fact that they disagreed so vehemently indicates that they did not believe in “multiple meanings” of Scripture.

I disagree…vehemently…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Well yes, I picked a bad choice of words there. I mean, division is always bad. Aaahh…let us not generalize “burning” at the stake as only a Catholic practice. I can provide you plenty of stake burnings conducted by Protestants.

I’m not generalizing anything. I said, “establishment” which could have been Catholic or Protestant. If Pentecostals had existed during the Reformation, I have a feeling that we would have been victims of both Catholic and Protestant “establishments.”

Either way…a very ugly method of killing folks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Okay,but I do not think the above truly answers my argument. Again, it would be like a teacher, teaching the students circles and triangles are the exact same shapes. How are the students accountable,if they are barely learning about shapes?

A teacher would have more responsibility. They will be held accountable to God for what they have taught and who they have deceived. The people listening are responsible for what they choose to believe. A “novice” being deceived by false teaching would have less guilt than someone who had grown up in church all their life and had read the Bible through several times. But we are all responsible for what we choose to believe.

 

[Nicea325]

There are different Pentecostal denominations that have their own policies. There are general patterns, which I discuss, but it would be a stretch for me to say that all Pentecostal churches have the same approach to handling these matters.

Interesting. Thanks for clearing up any misunderstandings I may have presented.

 

[pablope]

He’s not bound by what I espouse.

My pastor only has so much freedom to interpret the Bible. He can be removed by the church if he teaches contrary to Scripture.

Interesting discussion…

But the question Itwin…in this case, who in the church, will determine if your pastor teaches or interprets anything contrary to Scripture?

And how will the church determine what is against or contrary to Scripture?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

This discussion proves my point that there is no better way to learn from one another then to worship with each other. I have never witnessed an ‘altar call’ but I have worshiped in Baptist churches. The praise to Christ is quite outstanding

 

[PRmerger]

I can’t believe you wrote that. Sounds like some sort of strong arm coercion. Is that how the Papacy views non Roman Catholics? I think not.

Is what how the papacy views non-Roman Catholics?

Hiya, EC. Could you please address the above? Thanks.