Altar Calls-Non-Catholic/Orthodox

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Oh, so none of the New Testament writers belonged to the Church?

If you belong to the Church of God and you write about the Church of God, who owns those writings? The Church of God. Simple Intellectual Property Rights principles applied.

It belongs to God, the Church and the Scriptures, ALL belongs to God and it **ALL **comes from God.

That is precisely why it is unreasonable to separate Scriptures from the Church! They both come from God and should not be separated!

No matter how much you want the Scriptures to be independent from the Church, it is not going to happen.

If you deny the Church, you are denying the Scriptures.
That is one of the many errors of advocates of Scripture being “the” authority who try to separate the Church from the Bible.

It is like separating the U.S Constitution from the very government which wrote it and defended it.
 
That is one of the many errors of advocates of Scripture being “the” authority who try to separate the Church from the Bible.

It is like separating the U.S Constitution from the very government which wrote it and defended it.
The men who wrote the Constitution, the founding fathers, are all dead. To be sure the US Government and its laws are staying in line with the principles, spirit, and rules on which the US was founded, one primary means to do that is to hold ourselves accountable to the written document, the Constitution.
 
The men who wrote the Constitution, the founding fathers, are all dead. To be sure the US Government and its laws are staying in line with the principles, spirit, and rules on which the US was founded, one primary means to do that is to hold ourselves accountable to the written document, the Constitution.
Ah! And can a private party interpret it for itself apart from the government and overrule the government with the Constitution?

or

Does the government have a Magisterium who ultimately interprets this Constitution for ALL its citizens?

or

Can we take this same Constitution and make little independent countries without the government that wrote it and oversees the proper and correct application of it?
 
Ah! And can a private party interpret it for itself apart from the government and overrule the government with the Constitution?

or

Does the government have a Magisterium who ultimately interprets this Constitution for ALL its citizens?

or

Can we take this same Constitution and make little independent countries without the government that wrote it and oversees the proper and correct application of it?
The Supreme Court has reversed itself and contradicted itself many times. The President of the United States and the executive branch does whatever it wants and tells Congress whatever it wants. Congress is dysfunctional and doesn’t have a clue what they are doing.

This government has “authority” that comes from its ability to use force and violence in the name of the state. Just because a Constitution exists and a government exists does not mean that said government is adhering to said Constitution. The people must use whatever methods available to it to keep the government running according to (as much as possible) the principles of the Constitution. But just look at the Patriot Act and it becomes clear that many of our rights granted in the Constitution are already being trampled.
 
The Supreme Court has reversed itself and contradicted itself many times. The President of the United States and the executive branch does whatever it wants and tells Congress whatever it wants. Congress is dysfunctional and doesn’t have a clue what they are doing.

This government has “authority” that comes from its ability to use force and violence in the name of the state. The people must use whatever methods available to it to keep the government running according to (as much as possible) the principles of the Constitution. But just look at the Patriot Act and it becomes clear that many of our rights granted in the Constitution are already being trampled.
You have other questions that need tending :).

No need to appeal to demagoguery.

You forget the fact that people selected the government. God selected the Church.

In both cases an authority is needed to interpret and yes enforce that which is written.

The Church wrote the New Testament, inspired by the Holy Spirit, but the Church nonetheless.
 
If you belong to the Church of God and you write about the Church of God, who owns those writings? The Church of God. Simple Intellectual Property Rights principles applied.
Isaiah, if you’re going to be consistent about intellectual property rights, then, since Jewish practioners of Jewish law wrote the OT all by themselves, wouldn’t the Jews own the rights of interpretation alone for the OT?
 
You have other questions that need tending :).
I have pulled out of that other thread. Experience on CAF has shown that threads on Scripture, church authority, etc. go on endlessly and forever with no main point but to hear everyone argue.
No need to appeal to demagoguery.
Have no idea what you are referring to.
You forget the fact that people selected the government. God selected the Church.
Yes, and the weeds and wheat will grow together until He comes.
In both cases an authority is needed to interpret and yes enforce that which is written.
And in both cases “authority” can make wrong choices.
 
Isaiah, if you’re going to be consistent about intellectual property rights, then, since Jewish practioners of Jewish law wrote the OT all by themselves, wouldn’t the Jews own the rights of interpretation alone for the OT?
Weren’t Jesus and His Apostles Jewish?

Didn’t Jesus correct the interpretation to some passages to the Jewish people?

Didn’t these Jewish men write and teach the Church the correct way to interpreting Scriptures?

Isn’t Jesus God? Didn’t God establish a Church? And didn’t God reveal to His Church which was and wasn’t Scripture?

That’s my whole point, God already gave His Church Scriptures.
 
God selected the Church.
I think this it what it boils down to.

If I understand Catholicism correctly on this, as Catholics you believe–on faith—that God’s selection of the Church means it can never stray, even a little, off the straight path.

As a non-Catholic, I believe on faith that God selected the Church, but it doesn’t then follow for me that the Church, a collection of humans, will never make any mistakes and be in need of correction.
 
I have pulled out of that other thread. Experience on CAF has shown that threads on Scripture, church authority, etc. go on endlessly and forever with no main point but to hear everyone argue.
Yes, I was there once… until I got tired of running away from the Truth and the facts staring at me.
 
**The men who wrote the Constitution, the founding fathers, are all dead. **To be sure the US Government and its laws are staying in line with the principles, spirit, and rules on which the US was founded, one primary means to do that is to hold ourselves accountable to the written document, the Constitution.
So you mean not one human body has taken their spots as successors? And no…we are accoubtable to the written document and the governing body which is divided into to three bodies.

Again…it is illogical to separate the governing body from the written document it declared as important.
 
Oh, so none of the New Testament writers belonged to the Church?
They did belong to the ecclesia.
If you belong to the Church of God and you write about the Church of God, who owns those writings? The Church of God. Simple Intellectual Property Rights principles applied.
So, the Catholic Church claims ownership over all religious publications written by Catholics? I didn’t know that.
It belongs to God, the Church and the Scriptures, ALL belongs to God and it **ALL **comes from God.
Yes, all things belong to God. The earth and everything in it is the Lord’s.
That is precisely why it is unreasonable to separate Scriptures from the Church! They both come from God and should not be separated!

No matter how much you want the Scriptures to be independent from the Church, it is not going to happen.

If you deny the Church, you are denying the Scriptures.
I’m not “separating” the Scriptures from the Church. I and Protestants believe that they are linked, but that their relationship to one another must be understood correctly. The Scriptures are not accountable to the Church. The Church is accountable to the Scriptures.
 
I think this it what it boils down to.

If I understand Catholicism correctly on this, as Catholics you believe–on faith—that God’s selection of the Church means it can never stray, even a little, off the straight path.

As a non-Catholic, I believe on faith that God selected the Church, but it doesn’t then follow for me that the Church, a collection of humans, will never make any mistakes and be in need of correction.
When it comes to matters of the Faith, I trust that God will protect His Church. He will keep His Word. Sadly we are peccable people and the mistakes of men should not reflect on Christ’s Church.

Christ said to Peter that He would build His Church on him, and that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Paul said that the Church is the pillar and bullwark of Truth.

I have no reason to not believe either of them.
 
Yes, I was there once… until I got tired of running away from the Truth and the facts staring at me.
I’m not “running away from the truth and the facts.” However, I’m on a Catholic Forum and find no pleasure in trying to argue with or persuade people to accept what I believe. I will state what I believe on threads that ask, and then I will read other responses. I don’t feel like going on and on arguing disputed points and facts.
 
I think this it what it boils down to.

If I understand Catholicism correctly on this, as Catholics you believe–on faith—that God’s selection of the Church means it can never stray, even a little, off the straight path.
**
As a non-Catholic, I believe on faith that God selected the Church, but it doesn’t then follow for me that the Church, a collection of humans, will never make any mistakes and be in need of correction.**
And Jesus never said the church would be without problems. Then why would he even bother to select 12 men?
 
So you mean not one human body has taken their spots as successors? And no…we are accoubtable to the written document and the governing body which is divided into to three bodies.

Again…it is illogical to separate the governing body from the written document it declared as important.
Of course other people have taken over the governing spots after the deaths of the founding fathers. But, to be sure these successive people are (theoretically) staying true to the principles of the founding fathers, we have the Constitution in written form.
 
Of course other people have taken over the governing spots after the deaths of the founding fathers. But, to be sure these successive people are (theoretically) staying true to the principles of the founding fathers, we have the Constitution in written form.
Which PROceeds after the governining body. You are placing the cart before the horse.

One cannot place the written document as having more authority (Bible/Constitution) ABOVE the external factor (U.S. gov’t body/church) which assigned it authority.

Both go hand-in-hand.
 
As a non-Catholic, I believe on faith that God selected the Church, but it doesn’t then follow for me that the Church, a collection of humans, will never make any mistakes and be in need of correction.
Then, AWM, how do you know with any certainty that the Gospel of Mark is inspired? It was the Church that recognized it as Scripture, and if the Church erred, how do you know that this is not an example of an error she made?
 
They did belong to the ecclesia.

So, the Catholic Church claims ownership over all religious publications written by Catholics? I didn’t know that.

Yes, all things belong to God. The earth and everything in it is the Lord’s.

I’m not “separating” the Scriptures from the Church. I and Protestants believe that they are linked, but that their relationship to one another must be understood correctly. The Scriptures are not accountable to the Church. The Church is accountable to the Scriptures.
Sorry,but that is historically false and biblically incorrect.

You contradict yourself. If they are linked,then how can one be held accountable to the other? That logicallly does not follow.What did Jesus found? His Church or His church accountable to Scriptures? How can the church (which Jesus founded before any NT writing) be accountable to its own teachings which were penned on parchment?

Chapter and verse where the church is accountable to the Scriptures? Where does Jesus, 12 Apostles or any Scripture author remotely teach such a position?
 
When it comes to matters of the Faith, I trust that God will protect His Church. He will keep His Word. Sadly we are peccable people and the mistakes of men should not reflect on Christ’s Church.

Christ said to Peter that He would build His Church on him, and that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Paul said that the Church is the pillar and bullwark of Truth.

I have no reason to not believe either of them.
Good for you, Isaiah, because that’s part of something you must profess as a Catholic. I’m not being sarcastic; I sincerely mean “good for you”. If you’re going to be a Catholic, be one that abides by your church’s rules and articles of faith. You do have to take it as a matter of faith, though, not fact, that that is how those verses from the Bible were meant to be understood.

I was wondering some days ago, that if you quote those Bible verses to try to show the foundations of the authority of the Catholic Church, but the written word can’t be relied upon as a primary authority that can “straighten” the other sources of authority, ISTM that you really are taking things on faith. And again, good for you for following on faith what you must believe as a Catholic.
 
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