I “know” very little, PRmerger. I take much on faith, just as I commended Isaiah for doing.
The point I’m trying to make, Nicea, is that the specific people who were the governing body, no longer are with us. They’re dead. Sure, I’d place a council made up of the actual founding fathers of the US above the written document they wrote. But, they knew they would die, and they wrote down things–I assume they wrote partly to keep their successors on track as much as possible. That written document, to me, takes precedence as a “straightener” over any succeeding group of individuals sitting in the governing places of the founding fathers.
I am “linked” to my father in the closest possible ways: by genetics, by law, by being raised and taught by him, and in so many other ways but I am accountable to him in ways that he will never be accountable to me by virtue of him being my father.
There is a difference between (1) people in the church teaching something and writing it down and (2) the Holy Spirit inspiring someone to write something that is without error.
The Church is accountable to God, who has spoken by the writers of the Old and New Testaments in a way that he has never spoken again. I am sorry, but I disagree with your view that Scripture is just the church’s teachings “penned on parchment.”
It takes precedence? According to whose authority? Who makes such a declaration? The fact one dies has nothing to do with the document. The Apostles died and passed on their offices-right? No where is it taught:
But…who came first? You or your dad? So explain how can the church Christ (living organism) founded be accountable to its own words/teachings,which penned way after the church foundings? Explain how one separates the Word of God from His mystical Body the church (Eph1:22-23)?
Which begs the question:
And no is saying the church is not accountable to God. The argument you posed is:
God came first and gave inspiration to the writers of Scripture to guide His body the church.
Scripture is inspired. It is the pure word of God. All other teachings and words are to be measured by it because Scripture is the standard and the norm. If anyone would claim authority, they should first yield to the authority of God, who has revealed himself, his will, and his plan for humanity through his word.
The church is accountable to God. If we believe that God inspired the words of Scripture, then we have to believe that they contain the authority of God.
The issue here is not inspiration. The issue has to do with accountability. Then what Bible guided Abraham? You just said Scripture guides His body the church,so what Bible guided the Jews before ANY OT prophet wrote?
And where does God ever say His Word is binded to written words only? Can you show me from Scripture where it holds the NT canon accountable to Scripture? Chapter and verse? Remember, you are saying the church is accountable to Scripture. So where does Scripture teach it? Please show me…
Everything,whether dead or alive or visible or invisible is accountable to God,which clearly is not the argument here. In order for you to believe the church Christ founded is accountable to the Bible, please show me where this taught in the Bible?
Thank you. I don’t take it as sarcastic from you. I do perceive a respectful tone in all of our exchanges, and I thank you for that.
Because I see Scriptures as part of the Church, not separate. I have no problem to find help and inspiration from Scriptures on a personal and small group level and to use them as Life Application. However, when it comes to the meaning of Scriptures and how they are to be applied in the Christian life for the believers “as a whole” (IOW Catholic
), I look for the instrument that Christ left for us: the pillar and bullwark of truth.
) is the attempt to isolate everything: sola this, sola that, Jesus and me only, the Bible and me, et. al. You probably know the old saying: “divide and conquer”, there is nothing that pleases the devil more than for us believers to quarrel amongst us. That doesn’t mean I am a robot of the Church (I have plenty of questions and challenges - ask my priests, lol), but it means that I am “teachable” and “humble” and that I respect authority, but more importantly because I believe Christ and those He chose. I love Scriptures, I am a self-proclaim “Bible-stomping Catholic” 
. But the bottom line is that I see the Church and Scriptures as one.So you are saying that you have no reason to believe that the Gospel of Mark is inspired, except through faith…in what? Faith in the Catholic Church?
When I was still in the Assemblies of God (Evangelical Pentecostals, for those who are unfamiliar), we had a couple of very low wooden bench-like things at the front of the church by the pulpit – each of which was referred to as an “altar”. These were understood to be symbolic of laying down one’s sinful life in sacrifice to God, and that is how the “altar call” functioned. The idea of a church having a literal altar where a literal sacrifice was performed was not even on the radar. An altar call was supposed to be a time of somewhat public contrition, but did not involve confessing one’s sins to another person, just to God. Oftentimes the pastor would mention that the altars in the Old Testament were where animal sacrifice was performed, and make some sort of an allegory with that in mind (along with mentioning Christ’s atoning death that made animal sacrifice unnecessary). It’s a stretch, but perhaps you can liken it to the Penitential Act in Mass, if it helps.Peace to all!
Have any of you ever seen on TV when the pastor calls people up for altar calls?First of all, I thought these groups do not believe a physical altar is necessary? Second, they attack ancient liturgical churches for sacrificing Jesus over again? Finally, if such is the case, then where is the altar he or she call people to approach? :ehh:
I think you know the answer . . .
If Scripture says this nowhere,then evidently it is not a Biblical truth or taught anywhere. It is a man-made standard imposed on the church of Christ. And the above passage no where even suggests or hints the church is accountable to Scripture.
If arguing with strangers on the internet fills you with eager anticipation…maybe you need to get out more?
Actually, this is the teaching of the Church. She is, indeed, the servant of Scripture.
Thanks for bringing that up, PRmerger. I knew I’d read that from the CCC before, but didn’t remember where.
If I may be allowed to put in some of my thoughts into the fact of the meaning between “all” and “only”.
Spencer, I’d basically agree. Although, I’d say the sacrifice of ourselves is real, though imperfectly done, and not symbolic. It’s real in that it’s really meant by us, and really accepted by God. And, yes, I was going to bring up that it can be similar to the Penitential Act, if that’s the “Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa” part that I’m assuming it is.
MJ, from an Evangelical perspective, we believe the Holy Spirit is always in us as Christians, though we can quench the Spirit and resist Him. So, we believe He is with as we read the words He inspired. That doesn’t prevent our human errors and ignorance, but it’s just to say that the errors and ignorance is on our part, and not His fault.
I understand that Abide. However, shouldn’t the Church be the Pillar and Ground of Truth? We as Christians should have no dissensions. That is why the Truth is ultimately required over Scripture alone.