Altar Girls in Cassock/Surplice

[Baelor]

Girls ARE permitted to be altar servers in my parish. It’s just that they are not permitted to do everything the altar boys do.

The point is only that differentiated garments might make more sense if there are differentiated roles.

But that is a logistical decision, not one that affects ontological status in any way. I did not realize that you were referring to that specifically.

In that case, if boys are performing only some of the roles, are they dressed like the females as well?

 

[Corki]

Just for information, could you share what these are, please?

.

Specifically, only older boys are chosen to to be MCs or thurifers. Technically, only boys hold the water when we have asperges but that’s mostly because it’s the same person who is serving as MC for that Mass.

 

[felsguy]

Specifically, only older boys are chosen to to be MCs or thurifers. Technically, only boys hold the water when we have asperges but that’s mostly because it’s the same person who is serving as MC for that Mass.

Thank you

.

 

[Corki]

But that is a logistical decision, not one that affects ontological status in any way. I did not realize that you were referring to that specifically.

There is no “ontological status” to altar serving.

In that case, if boys are performing only some of the roles, are they dressed like the females as well?

In our parish, all the servers wear similar garments, unless the Cardinal is saying Mass. In that case, the MC wears cassock and surplice but he brings his own.

 

[felsguy]

Specifically, only older boys are chosen to to be MCs or thurifers. Technically, only boys hold the water when we have asperges but that’s mostly because it’s the same person who is serving as MC for that Mass.

I’m sorry, I lost track of the conversation.

Did you say then that at your parish the boy and girl servers do or do not wear the same garments?

.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

**
Peace to all here: **

Some posters stated that they feel that traditionally, boys became altar servers while discerning a clerical vocation. Although I question that that is the main reason why the younger boys are serving at the altar, I understand that this may be true for some older boys.

My husband was an altar boy in grade school, and he was not discerning a priestly vocation at that tender age. But let’s say that some older boys are. **Why couldn’t a young lady who is serving at the altar also be discerning a vocation as a Religious (Sister/Nun) from among the vocations allotted to her? **

Christ our Lord, and His Holy Mother and ours, inspire both their daughters as well as their sons in their respective vocations and in their compassionate hearts:heart: and willingness to serve.

In the Old Testament, it was the tradition that the King’s Mother would sit always at his right side, in a place of high honor. I think we might remember that, and that among the first evangelists were women followers who served Christ in their own way. We all serve out of love.** Christ said “Take my yoke upon you and learn of me. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. For I am meek and lowly of heart.”
This grace of humility is what I’ve observed at Mass among everyone serving, whatever their gender.**

Since the Church has now allowed girl altar servers, could this not be a step in discernment towards the possible vocations allowed for them as well? I feel that Our Lady speaks to everyone’s heart and we can honor everyone in their respective desires to serve. :nun1:

As I mentioned, my husband, many years ago, was an altar boy at a very young age, and like many boys in his Catholic grade school, he was** not** discerning a vocation as a member of the clergy at that tender age. He simply had a desire to serve at the altar at that time. Parents encouraged this out of a great love of Holy Church, and an honest desire to instill a sense of service in their children.

And some of the boys may not be thinking of the priesthood, but of becoming deacons. Deacons marry. So if there are both genders serving at the altar in their desire to assist, each gender finds a sacred space to serve and each learns how to work together while serving.:angel1: This is where we remember “In Christ there is no male or female.” This doesn’t mean that girls serving at the altar will become priests. But they are allowed to think about other callings allowed them by Holy Church.

I have never seen, as one person posted, “bossy girls” serving at the altar. The gentleman who trains them along with our priest would never allow bickering or superior attitudes.

I would think that anyone discerning a vocation to serve God’s people would benefit from working with both genders. Serving/assisting for the common good and working together in a sacred space benefits all. Priests, deacons, monks, as well as Sisters and oblates of both genders,* all usually work among both genders.*

I believe Christ and Our Lady, the Blessed Virgin smile down on them all, seeing not so much their outer garb as much as their earnest, hearts -desire to serve . As they learn to work together for God’s kingdom, may they all be blessed.:heaven::harp:

PAX,
Kathryn Ann:heaven:

 

[TempleServant]

As a 48 year old altar server with two children who serve, I can attest to that.
-Tim-

I said my daughter was a server and that I was looking forward to the day when I serve with her. You replied that you were looking forward to the day when my daughter was told that she could no longer serve.
-Tim-

So how many of your children serve and which are boys? I assumed from your statement they were both boys. (I don’t think I made the last remark you attribute to me.)

To another poster: Boys as young as eight aren’t testing a vocation, in the normal sense. Altar girls I would say are an impediment to them becoming servers and seeing ministry as an exclusive privilege: something to aim for. As altar boys, they would get exposed to the environment, it leaves an impression and then they have practical experience of what it’s like being a priest. Later, it bears fruit.

However, if both boys and girls can do it, whats so special about it, in a purely practical sense?

 

[moon1234]

To sum up why an Altar “Server” should be a male is simple because an altar “server” is a stand in for the clerical role of Acolyte. It is not possible for a female to be an Acolyte as this is a clerical role reserved to MEN only. If an instituted Acolyte were present in Church he would have higher status and would be required to serve in place of either a lay man (or boy) or female.

So the question “Is a male the prefered gender for filling the role of altar server?” the most correct answer would be YES as only a male can fill the role of Acolyte which an altar server is standing in for.

Female altar servers did NOT exist at ALL before VII and even AFTER VII for decades. It was through abuse that this practice became tolerated. Despite what feminism pushes today, young boys do NOT like serving with young girls. It is a simple fact of nature, just like boys in the 8-12 year old range typically do not hang out with girls.

IDEALLY we would have more vocations and plenty of instituted Acolytes (who would be men) and this problem would go away.

So my solution is pray for vocations and hope this “issue” goes away.

 

[Padraig1972]

To sum up why an Altar “Server” should be a male is simple because an altar “server” is a stand in for the clerical role of Acolyte. It is not possible for a female to be an Acolyte as this is a clerical role reserved to MEN only. If an instituted Acolyte were present in Church he would have higher status and would be required to serve in place of either a lay man (or boy) or female.

So the question “Is a male the prefered gender for filling the role of altar server?” the most correct answer would be YES as only a male can fill the role of Acolyte which an altar server is standing in for.

Female altar servers did NOT exist at ALL before VII and even AFTER VII for decades. It was through abuse that this practice became tolerated. Despite what feminism pushes today, young boys do NOT like serving with young girls. It is a simple fact of nature, just like boys in the 8-12 year old range typically do not hang out with girls.

IDEALLY we would have more vocations and plenty of instituted Acolytes (who would be men) and this problem would go away.

So my solution is pray for vocations and hope this “issue” goes away.

I support you there. Stuff like this brings out the “orthodox side” in me.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Yes, we should be listening to our bishops, and their instructions. If our local bishop says “no - not allowed” or “yes - allowed” we should follow.

But, I will listen to what my LOCAL bishop (successor to the apostles) says is appropriate for HIS diocese, and as long as the OFFICIAL word from Rome coincides. I will not question his direction, especially if the questioning is based upon the OPINIONS of other bishops, with authority over OTHER dioceses. It is called obedience to the local ordinary.

We must be obedient to our local ordinary as long as doing so does not entail disobedience to a higher authority.

At the same time, it is not soley the ordinary’s decision to permit “altar girls”. He can disallow it, but even if he allows it in his diocese, every pastor has the authority to not permit it at his church, and every priest as the authority not to permit it at a Mass he celebrates. If a bishop were to instruct his priests that they will have altar girls, then he is overstepping his authority.

Pax

 

[Jordan719]

I find girls in cassock and surplice repulsive since cassock and surplice are clerical garb and the clerical state is reserved to men. “Ecclesiastical cross-dressing” I heard it referred to as once. If they want to continue using female altar servers, they ought to dress is something more suitable, like a choir robe or something like that.

 

[Baelor]

There is no “ontological status” to altar serving.

Exactly.

Altar girls I would say are an impediment to them becoming servers and seeing ministry as an exclusive privilege: something to aim for.

Ministry is not an exclusive privilege. Priesthood is reserved for men. The fact that all priests are male should be clear enough to anyone, even an eight-year-old.

As altar boys, they would get exposed to the environment, it leaves an impression and then they have practical experience of what it’s like being a priest. Later, it bears fruit.

That clearly does not change if girls are serving.

However, if both boys and girls can do it, whats so special about it, in a purely practical sense?

There is nothing special about serving as an altar server anyway, beyond doing good work for the Mass. It should also be used to encourage vocations, I agree. But the institution does not exist in order to promote vocations, so using that argument, which is wrong in the way you presented it anyway, is not compelling.

To sum up why an Altar “Server” should be a male is simple because an altar “server” is a stand in for the clerical role of Acolyte.

But it is not the role of acolyte, it is the role of altar server. It is not a clerical role, it is a lay role.

 

[vz71]

Girls ARE permitted to be altar servers in my parish. It’s just that they are not permitted to do everything the altar boys do.

The point is only that differentiated garments might make more sense if there are differentiated roles.

 

[LucyLight]

But the gender distinction is not important for altar servers I thought? That’s why either sex can be an altar server. And girls are, indeed, legitimate altar servers.
It makes sense that the priest would have them dress alike, in a universal altar server uniform, since they are performing the same job IMO.

Maybe you are disturbed by it just cause you aren’t used to it?

I think this is the big issue here. Fear of change. And It might come down to personalities as well. Some people are more rigid and have trouble accepting and embracing change. I haven’t seen any logical reasons as to why people should feel so strongly about this only a lot of emotion.

 

[vz71]

Some posters stated that they feel that traditionally, boys became altar servers while discerning a clerical vocation. Although I question that that is the main reason why the younger boys are serving at the altar, I understand that this may be true for some older boys.

It is not the sole purpose. But it is difficult to deny the function is there.

My husband was an altar boy in grade school, and he was not discerning a priestly vocation at that tender age. But let’s say that some older boys are. **Why couldn’t a young lady who is serving at the altar also be discerning a vocation as a Religious (Sister/Nun) from among the vocations allotted to her? **

She can. But the functionality is not representative of what her vocation will be.

In the Old Testament, it was the tradition that the King’s Mother would sit always at his right side, in a place of high honor. I think we might remember that, and that among the first evangelists were women followers who served Christ in their own way. We all serve out of love.** Christ said “Take my yoke upon you and learn of me. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. For I am meek and lowly of heart.” **
This grace of humility is what I’ve observed at Mass among everyone serving, whatever their gender.

And the roles have always been different between male and female.

Since the Church has now allowed girl altar servers, could this not be a step in discernment towards the possible vocations allowed for them as well? I feel that Our Lady speaks to everyone’s heart and we can honor everyone in their respective desires to serve. :nun1:

And there it is.

The slippery slope that the church stands at allowing female alter servers.
The church has indicated many times that it simply has no authority to allow a female priesthood.
It would seem you have correctly discerned where exactly female alter servers lead.
If not an outright call for priestesses, at the very least a confusion of the respective roles men and women serve.

 

[Baelor]

The slippery slope that the church stands at allowing female alter servers.
The church has indicated many times that it simply has no authority to allow a female priesthood.
It would seem you have correctly discerned where exactly female alter servers lead.
If not an outright call for priestesses, at the very least a confusion of the respective roles men and women serve.

You misread – KA very clearly stated that it is possible discernment for vocations allowed, that is, open, to women. Your own post proves a point, but it is that of your own paranoia, not the one you intended to demonstrate.

 

[vz71]

You misread – KA very clearly stated that it is possible discernment for vocations allowed, that is, open, to women. Your own post proves a point, but it is that of your own paranoia, not the one you intended to demonstrate.

This thread is itself evidence that there is a very real problem and a very real reason for concern.

You may call it paranoia if you wish.

However, people understand where exactly the practice of female altar servers came from.
They understand the time, and they understand the open rebellion that was going on in many places.

The practice was rooted in abuse and rebellion.
It is reasonable to expect it will sow confusion and discent as long as it continues.

 

[ProVobis]

Ministry is not an exclusive privilege. Priesthood is reserved for men.

At one time so also was the role of lector. There was a mild outcry against women reading the epistle. Once women were accepted into the sanctuary, questions were raised about the possibility of priestesses. Yes, they have been sinced squelched but continued allowance of ladies in the sanctuary will always blur the roles of the sexes in the Church IMO.

 

[Baelor]

This thread is itself evidence that there is a very real problem and a very real reason for concern.

Explain.

The practice was rooted in abuse and rebellion.
It is reasonable to expect it will sow confusion and discent as long as it continues.

Even if I were to fully accept your account of the practice’s origin, the fact that it was rooted there does not mean that it cannot be appropriated for positive ends. I fail to see how girl altar servers are spreading confusion and dissent on a wide scale, nor have I seen any empirical evidence to suggest this is the case.

Furthermore, I love how you did not even acknowledge the fact that you totally misread someone’s post and have not apologized to the poster to whom you attributed a statement that was absolutely never made. Good job.

At one time so also was the role of lector. There was a mild outcry against women reading the epistle. Once women were accepted into the sanctuary, questions were raised about the possibility of priestesses. Yes, they have been sinced squelched but continued allowance of ladies in the sanctuary will always blur the roles of the sexes in the Church IMO.

Why should I believe the last part? Is there any theological basis for allowing lay men to read but not lay women?

 

[vz71]

Explain.

Read. There are a couple hundred posts now.

Even if I were to fully accept your account of the practice’s origin, the fact that it was rooted there does not mean that it cannot be appropriated for positive ends.

Sure it does.
I challange you to show an historical precedent to show otherwise.

I fail to see how girl altar servers are spreading confusion and dissent on a wide scale, nor have I seen any empirical evidence to suggest this is the case.

At present there is a string over 200 posts long that provides ample evidence of the confusion.

Furthermore, I love how you did not even acknowledge the fact that you totally misread someone’s post and have not apologized to the poster

If the poster wishes to object to my interpretation of what was said, they can explain the error to me and perhaps obtain an apology.
It is not your place to demand apologies for another that is perfectly capable.

to whom you attributed a statement that was absolutely never made. Good job.

Prove that. Find the specific statement I attributed and to whom.
I am curious to see if you can.