Altar Girls in Cassock/Surplice

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Are you suggesting the Mass is not a sacrifice?
No, I’m saying you thinking the last supper is somehow the sole source for the Mass is wrong. I’m saying that your misguided attempt to equate the last supper to Christ’s actual sacrifice on the Cross is wrong. As you pointed out, there was 1 sacrifice. It didn’t take place during the last supper.
 
No, I’m saying you thinking the last supper is somehow the sole source for the Mass is wrong. I’m saying that your misguided attempt to equate the last supper to Christ’s actual sacrifice on the Cross is wrong. As you pointed out, there was 1 sacrifice. It didn’t take place during the last supper.
The sacrifice began at the Last Supper and ended at the Cross (“It is finished”). It is the whole Passion.
  • PAX
 
The Apostles weren’t emulating clerics.
That is correct, the Apostles WERE clerics at the Last Supper, that was their Ordination.
vz- If you wish to focus on the sacrifice issue, that would be the Cross, not the last supper.
The Sacrifice of the Last Supper was part of the Sacrifice of the Cross. It was a ‘pre-presentation’ as the Mass is a re-presentation. The Eucharistic Sacrifice of the Mass is the re-presentation of the Last Supper, Calvary and the Resurrection all contemporaneous with the priest and the gathered faithful.
 
Kindly advise Bishop Salvatore Cordileone in Oakland, a conservative by any standards, and, I hear, a liturgical purist, that he should stop allowing the ladies of his cathedral choir to wear cassock and surplice.

In the Episcopal Church of yore, ladies in the choir wore academic gowns with soft caps while the men wore cassock and surplice. Better still, where they could afford it, they kept the women out of the choir and had choirs of boys and men. Grace Cathedral in San Francisco now has the anomaly of a woman Dean and a choir of boys and men.

I went to an Anglican cathedral in Madagascar and they had a single female cantor wearing an academic gown with soft hat.

Funny thing is that 150 years ago, a woman in academic gowns raised eyebrows.
It is a step towards absurdity. I have been serving on the altar for years in New York City. We always wear cassocks and surpluses and we are always either men or boys.

Now, We love to see the women and girls come out to serve. However, there is a certain order and structure to the Church and dressing the girls up in the same way that you dress the boys is the road to confusion.

One of the main purposes of the altar boy was for them to see the priest and if called aspire to be one. Girls cannot be priests. A woman cannot stand in persona Christi and recite the words of consecration.

It may seem harmless or even correct in this age of ambiguity but “IT IS NOT”

Woman are equally essential to the Church as men. However, we each need to participate in the way which God intended…
 
It is a step towards absurdity. I have been serving on the altar for years in New York City. We always wear cassocks and surpluses and we are always either men or boys.

Now, We love to see the women and girls come out to serve. However, there is a certain order and structure to the Church and dressing the girls up in the same way that you dress the boys is the road to confusion.

I agree. It is wrong to have girls wear traditional male garb. The problem, however, is that the vast majority of people who object to girl servers and them wearing the male garb object because they claim it is a function of the clergy and that the garb is clerical in nature. If the main objection is the about it being clerical, then logically no non-clergy should be wearing the garb/performing the function. But this doesn’t fit with the “liberal Catholics and women are trying to get women priest” conspiracy theory so it’s ignored.

One of the main purposes of the altar boy was for them to see the priest and if called aspire to be one. Girls cannot be priests. A woman cannot stand in persona Christi and recite the words of consecration.

That would be a secondary purpose, not a main purpose. The main purpose would be to help in the celebration of the Mass.

It may seem harmless or even correct in this age of ambiguity but “IT IS NOT”

**The decision of the Church to allow girl altar servers contradicts your conclusion. Additionally, even if the Church is “**w****rong,” as long as it is not “Wrong” it is our duty to obey.

Woman are equally essential to the Church as men. However, we each need to participate in the way which God intended…

Yes, and serving at the altar in a non-clerical role fits this. Remember that the first Tabernacle of our Lord was the womb of the Holy Mother, that His only perfect servent was the Holy Mother, and that it was she who did not deny Him or abandon Him on the Cross.
 
The sacrifice began at the Last Supper and ended at the Cross (“It is finished”). It is the whole Passion.
  • PAX
But, that doesn’t work with vz’s arugment based on the lack of women being at the last supper= we shouldn’t have girl altar servers. I’m not the one trying to rewrite the purpose/orgins of the Mass, I’m the one poking holes in someone else’s attempt to do so.
 
I do not believe you intended the insult that is implied towards Altar boys.
But you should consider carefully what is said to make sure there isn’t insult to one or the other when discussing the differences between the servers of Mass.
What insult??? :eek: It seems that you are looking for something to jump on. Kathryn Ann’s posts have been straightforward and** very** polite. And I was just thinking that a lot of the arguments against female altar servers seem to be searching for something negative when there isn’t anything negative to be found.
 
The Apostles themselves. In fact, that is another justification for altar service at least emulating the clerical role.
It is not a clerical role. The apostles cannot both be laymen and clerics.

This argument rests on the belief that somehow men qua men are emulating clerics. Why should anyone accept this? They are not clerics. They are lay members of the congregation. I fail to see any Church teaching that declares the potentiality involved to be quintessentially crucial.
What exact example is this?
No one seems willing or able to answer this.
Service, obviously. As everyone has been saying.
Mary gave plenty of example of serving God’s people.
But what example is there towards being an altar server?
You keep asking this, but no one is claiming that there needs to be one. Answering the question is therefore irrelevant, since whether or not she herself served at an altar is irrelevant. What is relevant is her service.
That is correct, the Apostles WERE clerics at the Last Supper, that was their Ordination.
Then they were clerics, which would prohibit any servers who are not clerics of any kind.
 
The Church has spoken on the matter of girl altar servers.
Indeed it has. It has said they are optional. In fact it has said they are allowed as an indult; a special permission. So exceptional is this permission that a priest can refuse to have them, even if his Bishop has permitted them in his diocese.

Causa finita non est.
 
Indeed it has. It has said they are optional. In fact it has said they are allowed as an indult; a special permission. So exceptional is this permission that a priest can refuse to have them, even his Bishop has permitted them in his diocese.

Non est causa finita.
Right. The Church has allowed for Episcopal Conferences to allow this. If it is allowed then a bishop may allow it. If the bishop allows it then the priest may allow it at the Mass he presides at. If the priest allows it the it is allowed.

No where in this does the laity get a say.

So what is the point of being for or against it?

It is what it is and out of obedience we should just be.

There is no evil, no sin perpetrated by it or by lack of it.

edit: Really there is a place for the laity to have a say. It is for parents. If they do not want their child to serve at the altar they can say “No” to it.
 
Right. The Church has allowed for Episcopal Conferences to allow this. If it is allowed then a bishop may allow it. If the bishop allows it then the priest may allow it at the Mass he presides at. If the priest allows it the it is allowed.

No where in this does the laity get a say.

So what is the point of being for or against it?

It is what it is and out of obedience we should just be.

There is no evil, no sin perpetrated by it or by lack of it.
And he can also disallow it. We are having a debate. It’s a forum. It’s comical that on a Traditional forum this issue is being pushed. But hey ho.

As laity, I’m not sure where obedience comes in. As laity we can express a preference to our priest for certain things. He can agree, or not. We can also go to an old rite Mass. Problem solved.

Altar girls are one more thing taking away from the appearance of the rite being special. It used to be only clergy up there, then only males, now it’s anybody.

Can you imagine where the new rite will go in another 40 years if such changes are not checked? They will be dancing in the sanctuary. A precedent will be found.
 
Altar girls are one more thing taking away from the appearance of the rite being special. It used to be only clergy up there, then only males, now it’s anybody.
The clergy-males transition makes far less sense than the males-females, which remains untenable on any theological basis.
 
YES, this seems to be the place to ask questions like this.
Altar girls, like alot of things are allowed in alot of places at the present, I just avoid them.
 
You keep asking this, but no one is claiming that there needs to be one. Answering the question is therefore irrelevant, since whether or not she herself served at an altar is irrelevant. What is relevant is her service.
It is relevent if it is claimed that her example is reason to have Altar girls.
 
Both my sister and I were alter servers in the 70’s we both wore the same thing. As did every alter server in the Parrish. Cassok and Surplice.
 
It is relevent if it is claimed that her example is reason to have Altar girls.
The original claim was that altar girls do not violate Mary’s example. That is different from saying that Mary’s example is prescriptive.
 
from Wikipedia - Article entitled Female Altar Servers
The evolution of the ministry of altar server has a long history. In the early Church, many ministries were held by men and women. By the early Middle Ages, some of these ministries were formalized under the term “minor orders” and (along with the diaconate) used as steps to priestly ordination. One of the minor orders was the office of acolyte. By the beginning of the modern era it became customary for men, particularly young boys, to substitute for acolytes, even without being professed in minor orders. Formerly, it was strictly forbidden to have women serving near the altar within the sacred chapel, that is, they were prohibited from entering the altar area behind the altar rails during the liturgy, except to clean or in convents of nuns. In his encyclical Allatae Sunt of 26 July 1755, Pope Benedict XIV (not to be confused with Pope Benedict XVI) explicitly condemned females serving the priest at the altar with the following words:
“Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: “Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry.” We too have forbidden this practice in the same words in Our oft-repeated constitution Etsi Pastoralis, sect. 6, no. 21.”

The references to “the Greeks” pertains to the Orthodox practice of ordaining women as deacons. With the practice of private Masses (Mass by a priest and one other person, often offered for a deceased person), scandal was an additional reason not to have a woman or girl alone with a priest.

Around the time of the Second Vatican Council, some dioceses allowed girls in the lay ministry of altar servers. For example, this practice started as early as 1965 in Germany. The Vatican sought to put an end to such experimentation with the 1970 instruction Liturgicae instaurationes, and affirmed that only males could serve the priest at the altar. However, the practice nonetheless continued in some places, and the Vatican reaffirmed the prohibition against female altar servers in the 1980 instruction Inaestimabile donum.

With the promulgation of the 1983 Code of Canon Law, some argued that this reservation to males no longer held, based on the inclusion of both males and females in canon 230 §2: “Lay persons can fulfil the function of lector in liturgical actions by temporary designation. All lay persons can also perform the functions of commentator or cantor, or other functions, according to the norm of law.” In some dioceses, females were allowed to act as altar servers under the new canon law, without any explicit clarification on the matter from the Holy See.

The clarification came in the form of a circular letter from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments to presidents of episcopal conferences on 15 March 1994, which announced a 30 June 1992 authentic interpretation (confirmed on 11 July 1992 by Pope John Paul II) from the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts. This authentic interpretation said that canon 230 §2 states that service at the altar is one of the liturgical functions that can be performed by both lay men and women. The circular letter, written by the cardinal-prefect of the Congregation, also clarified that canon 230 §2 has a permissive and not a preceptive character, that is, it allows, but does not require, the use of female altar servers. Thus it was for each diocesan bishop to decide whether to allow them in his diocese.

A later document made clear that, even if a bishop decided to permit female altar servers, the priest in charge of a church in that diocese was not obliged to accept them, since there was no question of anyone, male or female, having a right to become an altar server.

Furthermore, the document states that: it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. This tradition has been maintained by most dioceses in the non-Western world, traditionalist Catholics, in some clerical societies, especially with regards to the motu proprio Summorum Pontificum.

Pope Benedict XVI has used female altar servers in Papal masses in London (2010), Berlin and Freiburg (2011). Today only one Roman Catholic diocese in America, the diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska does not permit female altar servers.
The article is well cited, appears to be a fair summary of the history on this topic, and leaves a rather definitive conclusion.

Frankly and irrespective, when Catholics worldwide see female altar servers on a televised Pontifical Mass, it is hard to erase that from the minds of young women who would be interested in service.

As to the OP and original question, there was one post here earlier today with a speech of His Holiness, which indicated that the garments worn by altar servers of either gender should resemble baptismal robes (albs). As this is not a clerical position, vestments should not be worn, and the garment mentioned by His Holiness makes perfect sense.

http://www.americamagazine.org/images/articles/altargirl-300v.jpg

Perhaps some guidelines and uniformity on garments for lay ministers in general could help.

It is interesting to note, as highlighted in the article, that post-VII female altar servers appeared rather early on in Germany.
 
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