Altar Girls in Cassock/Surplice

[ByzCathCantor]

… and by the way, as an Eastern Catholic, I have watched this and similar threads in the past with interest and decided to research this in search of a definitive answer. FWIW - in our Church, women are not permitted in the sanctuary, and this is universally respected. Our altar servers are considered acolytes, and thus serve in the position of a minor order. The Roman Catholic Church has seemingly determined that altar server / service is a lay minister / ministry, and thus open to both genders.

Did I get that right?

 

[Cathryn]

After reading the words of the Holy Father in my above post, maybe the Holy See should have all altar servers for the Ordinary Form of the Mass wear albs.

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

Furthermore, the document states that: it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. This tradition has been maintained by most dioceses in the non-Western world, traditionalist Catholics, in some clerical societies, especially with regards to the motu proprio Summorum Pontificum.

Well, this is nice… so when people tell us to stop complaining about altar girls, we can point out that it is very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar.

I’ll reiterate my stance: just because something is allowed does not make it a best practice.

• PAX

 

[Brendan]

As to the OP and original question, there was one post here earlier today with a speech of His Holiness, which indicated that the garments worn by altar servers of either gender should resemble baptismal robes (albs). As this is not a clerical position, vestments should not be worn, and the garment mentioned by His Holiness makes perfect sense.

Perhaps some guidelines and uniformity on garments for lay ministers in general could help.

It is interesting to note, as highlighted in the article, that post-VII female altar servers appeared rather early on in Germany.

But also of interest is that the altar servers for St. Peter’s itself, and in the Pope’s own chalpel, are exclusively male and wear cassock and albs

They are students at a Middle\High School ‘pre-seminary’ for boys who are considering a vocation to the priesthood.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0604581.htm

 

[Brendan]

Well, this is nice… so when people tell us to stop complaining about altar girls, we can point out that it is very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar.

I’ll reiterate my stance: just because something is allowed does not make it a best practice.

• PAX

Here is the full document, BTW

adoremus.org/CDW-AltarServers.html

The specific reason given for encouraging the nobel tradition of having boys serve at the altar is:

Indeed, the obligation to support groups of altar boys will always remain, not least of all due to the well known assistance that such programs have provided since time immemorial in encouraging future priestly vocations (cf. ibid.)

I would even note that the Vatican has defined the need to support groups of altar boys as an obligation.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

What insult??? It seems that you are looking for something to jump on. Kathryn Ann’s posts have been straightforward and** very** polite. And I was just thinking that a lot of the arguments against female altar servers seem to be searching for something negative when there isn’t anything negative to be found.

Dear LucyLight, That’s very kind of you.:angel1: Thank you for coming to my defense. (Several of you have! ) I’m most grateful.

After reading the post you are speaking of, and having noticed a particular parsing and mis-interpretation of my kindly- meant words on more than one occasion. I was surprised, as I think I’m being as clear as one can be.

I’m sure this thread is left in excellent hands, but I’m going to find some less- intense ones in the forum, and hope I see you and many other posters in the future.

I wish everyone well and am very happy that we all have a place to discuss the Catholic journey. Part of that journey is finding just the place where one’s opinions are taken as kindly as they are given. Most here on this thread have provided just that.

Whatever our viewpoints, everyone here, I hope, is motivated by a love of our Holy Church. For my part, I see that Holy Church, Holy Father and Magisterium have spoken in allowing our daughters to serve alongside their brothers in Christ.

I see a most joyful future for us all!:nun1::heaven::knight1:

May your day be blessed!:angel1:
Kathryn Ann

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

… and by the way, as an Eastern Catholic, I have watched this and similar threads in the past with interest and decided to research this in search of a definitive answer. FWIW - in our Church, women are not permitted in the sanctuary, and this is universally respected. Our altar servers are considered acolytes, and thus serve in the position of a minor order. The Roman Catholic Church has seemingly determined that altar server / service is a lay minister / ministry, and thus open to both genders.

Did I get that right?

First, this is not “universally respected”.

While on a come-and-see weekend at the Byzantine Seminary in Pittsburgh we went to a Divine Liturgy Sunday morning at a parish near the seminary. This parish used a female altar server who served from within the sanctuary.

The priest who took us from the seminary (I believe it was the dean at the time but it could have been the rector (it was a long time ago)) was the celebrant as he was filling in for the pastor. He told us later that he does not agree with the practice as it is not what “we” do but he did not feel it was his place to correct it as he is not the pastor.

Now this brings up the my Second.

Your wikapedia article says;
A later document made clear that, even if a bishop decided to permit female altar servers, the priest in charge of a church in that diocese was not obliged to accept them, since there was no question of anyone, male or female, having a right to become an altar server.

So does this mean that if the pastor of the parish (the priest in charge of a church) decides to used female altar servers then every priest who presides at Mass in that church must use them if scheduled?

That not every priest gets to decide.

 

[Corki]

Now this brings up the my Second.

Your wikapedia article says;
A later document made clear that, even if a bishop decided to permit female altar servers, the priest in charge of a church in that diocese was not obliged to accept them, since there was no question of anyone, male or female, having a right to become an altar server.

So does this mean that if the pastor of the parish (the priest in charge of a church) decides to used female altar servers then every priest who presides at Mass in that church must use them if scheduled?

That not every priest gets to decide.

No, each priest gets to decide. Practically speaking, a visiting priest is likely to just go along as your dean did in your Byzantine example. And any priest permanently assigned to a parish is likely to abide by the pastors instructions. However, I know a school near me that only uses boys to serve at school Masses. They are blessed to have many different local priests say Mass at the school and it would be way too complicated to keep track of which priests would want to include girl servers. At least, that’s one of the reasons given.

Visiting priests change up the scheduled servers all the time - at least in my parish.
They don’t necessarily use the servers that are scheduled.

 

[Brendan]

So does this mean that if the pastor of the parish (the priest in charge of a church) decides to used female altar servers then every priest who presides at Mass in that church must use them if scheduled?

That not every priest gets to decide.

Every priest gets to decide. A pastor of a parish, by definition, cannot have more authority over the use of altar girls, or over an associate pastor than the bishop himself has.

A pastor can permit, but he too cannot require.

And if the pastor chooses not to allow altar girls, a visiting priest or pastoral vicar, cannot choose to use them.

But, as Corki mentioned. as visiting priest would be very unlikely to specifiy a preference. An associate pastor, on the other hand, woudl be more likely to, as his Masses would be scheduled in advance and all would know of his desire not to use altar girls.

 

[Brendan]

First, this is not “universally respected”.

While on a come-and-see weekend at the Byzantine Seminary in Pittsburgh we went to a Divine Liturgy Sunday morning at a parish near the seminary. This parish used a female altar server who served from within the sanctuary.

I too have seen that happen in Chaldean Catholic parishes, again against both the tradition of their Church, their Canon Law and against the teachings of Vatican II

But the recent flux of more Chaldean immigrants, and the more direct teachings of +Ibriham against these Latinizations, that is going away

 

[ByzCathCantor]

First, this is not “universally respected”.

While on a come-and-see weekend at the Byzantine Seminary in Pittsburgh we went to a Divine Liturgy Sunday morning at a parish near the seminary. This parish used a female altar server who served from within the sanctuary.

The priest who took us from the seminary (I believe it was the dean at the time but it could have been the rector (it was a long time ago)) was the celebrant as he was filling in for the pastor. He told us later that he does not agree with the practice as it is not what “we” do but he did not feel it was his place to correct it as he is not the pastor.

The celebrating priest was correct - it is not what “we” do.

I’ve visited many of our parishes across the country, and have yet to see this. I have also yet to hear any of our ladies at any age make an issue of this.

Of course, as you report, you have seen it within an earshot of the seminary & Cathedral. That’s really something!

My pastor spent nearly 13 years in Pittsburgh, and I’d bet he would be just as surprised as I am to hear of this.

I guess “never say never” …

Irrespective, as you surely know, this is supposed to be the accepted norm.

 

[newyorkcatholic]

The celebrating priest was correct - it is not what “we” do.

I’ve visited many of our parishes across the country, and have yet to see this. I have also yet to hear any of our ladies at any age make an issue of this.

Of course, as you report, you have seen it within an earshot of the seminary & Cathedral. That’s really something!

My pastor spent nearly 13 years in Pittsburgh, and I’d bet he would be just as surprised as I am to hear of this.

I guess “never say never” …

Irrespective, as you surely know, this is supposed to be the accepted norm.

I have seen pictures of altar girls at a UGCC Divine Liturgy, and I’ve seen UGCC bulletins online with scheduled altar servers including many obviously female names.

It made me very sad.

 

[TimothyH]

So does this mean that if the pastor of the parish (the priest in charge of a church) decides to used female altar servers then every priest who presides at Mass in that church must use them if scheduled?

That not every priest gets to decide.

Such is the case at the parish I belong to.

A priest from another parish wanted to use our Church for some function in the context of the Mass because ours is one of the bigger Churches in the area. He made it clear that he did not want female altar servers and our pastor politely told him that we use both boys and girls and that if he wasn’t comfortable with that he would have to find another Church.

I don’t know if the pastor was within his rights or if he was out of bounds, but in our Church the pastor has the final word on any liturgical function.

-Tim-

 

[Cathryn]

Such is the case at the parish I belong to.

A priest from another parish wanted to use our Church for some function in the context of the Mass because ours is one of the bigger Churches in the area. He made it clear that he did not want female altar servers and our pastor politely told him that we use both boys and girls and that if he wasn’t comfortable with that he would have to find another Church.

I don’t know if the pastor was within his rights or if he was out of bounds, but in our Church the pastor has the final word on any liturgical function.

-Tim-

The pastor is responsible for everything that goes on in his parish and is within his rights according to canon law. His role is to teach, to sanctify, and to govern his parish.

 

[TempleServant]

I skimmed that Wikipedia quote. Altar girls were expressly forbidden, people went ahead with using them anyway, then an excuse was found to have them. Correct?

Obedience. We obey when it suits us to.

 

[Brendan]

Such is the case at the parish I belong to.

A priest from another parish wanted to use our Church for some function in the context of the Mass because ours is one of the bigger Churches in the area. He made it clear that he did not want female altar servers and our pastor politely told him that we use both boys and girls and that if he wasn’t comfortable with that he would have to find another Church.

I don’t know if the pastor was within his rights or if he was out of bounds, but in our Church the pastor has the final word on any liturgical function.

-Tim-

The pastor had the ability to allow or disallow a visiting priest.

I know of a reverse case where a pastor gave his permission, but tried to retract it once he found out the visiting priest was arranging for only male altar servers.

A call was made to the Chancellory office and the the pastor was informed that permission had been given with no conditions, therefore the visiting priest was well within his rights to choose only male altar servers.

The priest had a Canonical right to refuse the use of his parish under any grounds he so choose, but once that permission had been given without any conditions on altar service, the visiting priest is within HIS canonical rights to refuse the use of altar girls.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I skimmed that Wikipedia quote. Altar girls were expressly forbidden, people went ahead with using them anyway, then an excuse was found to have them. Correct?

Obedience. We obey when it suits us to.

One could say this of the other side as well.

It matters not how the practice started, what matters now is that it is allowed under certain conditions.

Those who support it now are obedient. To try and smear them being disobedient is wrong.

 

[Brendan]

Those who support it now are obedient. To try and smear them being disobedient is wrong.

Even then, I would clarify that by saying " Those who accept that it is permitted under certain conditions are obedient"

Your statement seemed to imply that that priests who choose not to allow altar girls are acting in a disobedient fashion.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Even then, I would clarify that by saying " Those who accept that it is permitted under certain conditions are obedient"

Your statement seemed to imply that that priests who choose not to allow altar girls are acting in a disobedient fashion.

I intended no such thing. They are doing as they are permitted.

 

[Brendan]

I intended no such thing. They are doing as they are permitted.

I’ve read enough of your posts to know that you intended nothing like that , it was strictly for clarification purposes

Pronouns are such interesting things. When you stated 'support it", that could be read in the correct way, to support the instructions of the Church, or incorrectly, as in someone, such as a priest, is obligated to support the use of altar girls.

The first is correct, the second would not be.