Altar Girls in Cassock/Surplice

[EcceAgnusDei]

Given the glacial pace of change in the Church, I’d say you and your progeny will safely be in Heaven long before that happens.

Historically, the Church has had a glacial pace of change. However, over the past 40 years, the rate of change has been unprecedented. It is the influx of change, change, change, that has many traditional Catholics worried about what change might be coming next and wondering what a current practice, like altar girls, might lead to.

On the other hand, I think the pendulum has finally stopped swinging and is now coming back. Thanks be to God for our Holy Father’s support of this.

• PAX

 

[Armyvet007]

What is demonstrated is a lack of understanding of English grammar.
Whether it is on your part or mine remains to be seen.

But it cannot be disputed that the phrase quoted can be interpreted a variety of ways.

What does it say that you are making my unwillingness to cater your opinions the subject rather then the actual subject?
An apology was not demanded, but was provided once clarification given. Yet you are unwilling to move on.

Since the Church has now allowed girl altar servers, could this not be a step in discernment towards the possible vocations **allowed for them **as well?

That kinda takes out the “interpreted a variety of ways”. Especially when one takes into account the remainder of the post from which it was taken.

 

[Opie90]

Yes it clearly shows the problems of understanding the Church held by those who are against the practice.

It is irrelevant where the practice came from. The Church allows for it and the Church is incapable of error. It can not allow an evil to be done.

Did not the church allow the selling of indulgences? Just because a practice is allowed Does not necessarily mean it’s a good idea.

I do not have a definite position on girl altar servers, but I do not think that just becaue a practice is currently allowed that means it’s a good idea or the best idea.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

Well, a glacial pace in an age of global warming, I suppose.

Historically, the Church has had a glacial pace of change. However, over the past 40 years, the rate of change has been unprecedented. It is the influx of change, change, change, that has many traditional Catholics worried about what change might be coming next and wondering what a current practice, like altar girls, might lead to.

On the other hand, I think the pendulum has finally stopped swinging and is now coming back. Thanks be to God for our Holy Father’s support of this.

• PAX

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

I do not have a definite position on girl altar servers, but I do not think that just becaue a practice is currently allowed that means it’s a good idea or the best idea.

This is a good point. “Allowed” does not mean “best practice.”

• PAX

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

I must have missed this statement.
Can you please point it out?

Certainly: :angel1:

"Why couldn’t a young lady who is serving at the altar also be discerning a vocation as a Religious (Sister/Nun) from among the vocations allotted to her?

Since the Church has now allowed girl altar servers, could this not be a step in discernment towards** the possible vocations allowed for them as well*?* I feel that Our Lady speaks to everyone’s heart and we can honor everyone in their respective desires to serve."

We all know the young ladies are not allowed to become priests. The very fact that girls wish to serve, knowing full well they cannot become priests, proves that their desire to serve includes no hidden agenda to become something dis-allowed them.

The very Magisterium that dis-allows them the vocation of priest recognizes their lovely and admirable desire to serve.

Again, I point to Our Lady’s supremely beautiful

“Yes.”

at the Annunciation. :angel1:

Her “Yes” to serve in her own specific calling is echoed in these young ladies who still wish to serve, despite their different choice of vocations. May we rejoice along with them.
Kathryn Ann:heaven::harp::heaven:

 

[Armyvet007]

Certainly: :angel1:

"Why couldn’t a young lady who is serving at the altar also be discerning a vocation as a Religious (Sister/Nun) from among the vocations allotted to her?

Since the Church has now allowed girl altar servers, could this not be a step in discernment towards** the possible vocations allowed for them as well**? I feel that Our Lady speaks to everyone’s heart and we can honor everyone in their respective desires to serve."

We all know the young ladies are not allowed to become priests. The very fact that girls wish to serve, knowing full well they cannot become priests, proves that their desire to serve includes no hidden agenda to become something dis-allowed them.

The very Magisterium that dis-allows them the vocation of priest recognizes their lovely and admirable desire to serve.

Again, I point to Our Lady’s supremely beautiful

“Yes.”

at the Annunciation. :angel1:

Her “Yes” to serve in her own specific calling is echoed in these young ladies who still wish to serve, despite their different choice of vocations. May we rejoice along with them.
Kathryn Ann:heaven::harp::heaven:

I agree. I fail to see how allowing girls to be altar servers violates the example set by the Holy Mother.

 

[vz71]

I’m still missing it.

The bolds and the parentheses added in tell me what your meaning is.
But I am not seeing it written out.

Here is what I am seeing…
The church is subject of the sentence.
It is a question of a discernment process that the church has undertaken for the vocations available to women.

The reader is left to wonder what exactly that is.

And I am still curious what that may be. I believe the church has already spoken concerning Altar girls, so that particular discernment is done.
What is the next you are speaking of?

 

[vz71]

I agree. I fail to see how allowing girls to be altar servers violates the example set by the Holy Mother.

Were the Holy Mother there at the last supper assisting with the preperation…
Was she?

 

[Brendan]

Since the Church has now allowed girl altar servers, could this not be a step in discernment towards the possible vocations **allowed for them **as well?

That kinda takes out the “interpreted a variety of ways”. Especially when one takes into account the remainder of the post from which it was taken.

the orders of women religious fall into 4 main categories

1. Contemplative
2. Mendicant
3. Teaching
4. Health Care

So if one wishes to encourage girls to religious life, one should encourage them to spend time in adoration ( Contemplative), care for the poor and elderly ( Mendicant), assist teaching catechism ( Teaching) or do visit the sick in hospitals or nursing homes ( Health Care)

If one is looking at promoting vocations for anybody, the key is for them to find holiness and spiritual fulfillement in the tasks that are at the heart of the religious charism.

The charism of priests is to serve God at His altar, the charism of women religious is to serve God in prayer and service to His people.

So if we desire to help girls discern a vocaiton, would not the proper course of action to expose them to the activities of the charisms to which they can aspire?

That is what altar service can do for boys, but not for girls, as the associated charism is not open to girls.

 

[Armyvet007]

Were the Holy Mother there at the last supper assisting with the preperation…
Was she?

The Holy Mother assisted the Lord throughout His [earthly] and her life. From conception to the Cross.

 

[Armyvet007]

the orders of women religious fall into 4 main categories

1. Contemplative
2. Mendicant
3. Teaching
4. Health Care

So if one wishes to encourage girls to religious life, one should encourage them to spend time in adoration ( Contemplative), care for the poor and elderly ( Mendicant), assist teaching catechism ( Teaching) or do visit the sick in hospitals or nursing homes ( Health Care)

If one is looking at promoting vocations for anybody, the key is for them to find holiness and spiritual fulfillement in the tasks that are at the heart of the religious charism.

The charism of priests is to serve God at His altar, the charism of women religious is to serve God in prayer and service to His people.

So if we desire to help girls discern a vocaiton, would not the proper course of action to expose them to the activities of the charisms to which they can aspire?

That is what altar service can do for boys, but not for girls, as the associated charism is not open to girls.

All well and good, but does not address the idea that the poster somehow left her comment open to interpretation.

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

The charism of priests is to serve God at His altar, the charism of women religious is to serve God in prayer and service to His people.

So if we desire to help girls discern a vocaiton, would not the proper course of action to expose them to the activities of the charisms to which they can aspire?

That is what altar service can do for boys, but not for girls, as the associated charism is not open to girls.

Well put. Encouraging vocations means to encourage boys and girls and men and women to experience the charism that is open to them, not the charism that is closed. For example, many monasteries have guest houses outside of the cloister where women can stay. However, if a woman was discerning a vocation to a religious life, or if her parents wanted to encourage such a vocation, it wouldn’t make much sense to send her to the monastery with monks. She should instead go to the convent, since it is the convent that is open to her.

• PAX

 

[vz71]

The Holy Mother assisted the Lord throughout His [earthly] and her life. From conception to the Cross.

That is true.
But did she assist in the first Mass?

I believe this is the distinction pointed out earlier with the following quote:
“The charism of priests is to serve God at His altar, the charism of women religious is to serve God in prayer and service to His people.”

It is in the tradition established by Mary that women religious provide service to his people.

So did Mary also establish the tradition of serving at the Altar?
Was she there? Did she do anything?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Now for my own thoughts:

Am i against altar girls?

No, because nuns altar serve at the convent. So, you can basically prepare the altar girls for a possible vocation.

Am i against altar girls wearing clerical vestments reserved for men?

Yes, we need to keep to the Church’s tradition

What then are the vestments reserved for women / female altar servers?

 

[Armyvet007]

That is true.
But did she assist in the first Mass?

I believe this is the distinction pointed out earlier with the following quote:
“The charism of priests is to serve God at His altar, the charism of women religious is to serve God in prayer and service to His people.”

It is in the tradition established by Mary that women religious provide service to his people.

So did Mary also establish the tradition of serving at the Altar?
Was she there? Did she do anything?

No clue. It’s not mentioned. Also not mentioned, non-Apostles. Which, using your logic, would mean only clergy could be altar servers. Also, please show me where the Church has used who attended the last supper as a means by which to justify the practices of using serving at the altar as a mean by which to help boys enter the priesthood.

edit- added a “s” to “boy”

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Were the Holy Mother there at the last supper assisting with the preperation…
Was she?

Yet she (and other women) were at the foot of the cross (the Sacrifice) and only one of the apostles was there.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Yet she (and other women) were at the foot of the cross (the Sacrifice) and only one of the apostles was there.

… and it was the women disciples, the myrrh-bearers, that bravely went to the tomb and became the first witnesses of the glorious Resurrection, all while the [male] Apostles were in hiding.

Yet Brother, as you well know, in our Byzantine tradition the presence of males only in the sanctuary is the rule.

That said, while men and women may have different roles, they are both equally important and supporting each other in the service of the Lord. I can certainly tell you that it was always clear in my experience as a “cradle Byzantine” who ran the parish, and the answer was remarkably similar at home!

 

[vz71]

No clue.

Exactly. We can only go by the traditions established.

Also not mentioned, non-Apostles. Which, using your logic, would mean only clergy could be altar servers.

It is a stretch to say my logic implies that. My meaning was clear, particularly with the quote I referenced to clarify the point further.
The precedent was established of a difference between the roles of men and women.

 

[Baelor]

What is demonstrated is a lack of understanding of English grammar.
Whether it is on your part or mine remains to be seen.

It has already been seen. You are more than welcome to disagree, but you would be wrong.

But it cannot be disputed that the phrase quoted can be interpreted a variety of ways.

No, it cannot. You still have not explained how you can justifiably reach your statement from the words used.

Here is what I am seeing…
The church is subject of the sentence.
It is a question of a discernment process that the church has undertaken for the vocations available to women.

The reader is left to wonder what exactly that is.

No, because it was laid out earlier in the post – Religious was defined as Sister/Nun, which means that Priesthood is excluded since it would be a religious vocation. Furthermore, that was followed by “allotted,” which fits in with the aforementioned vocation, and the statement itself is unambiguously referring to vocations that are allowed in the current time, of which priesthood is emphatically not one of them. Furthermore, the same post explicitly stated that women altar servers does NOT mean they are training to be priests.

There is no ambiguity. You erred.

Were the Holy Mother there at the last supper assisting with the preperation…
Was she?

Where were the readings? Where was the incense? Why do we have more than twelve congregants? Which of the apostles assisted actively at the Mass? What roles did they play? How many assisted? How long was the first Mass? Where was the first Mass? What furniture was there? Decorations?

So did Mary also establish the tradition of serving at the Altar?
Was she there? Did she do anything?

Mary need not have established that tradition. And altar servers do not serve at the altar in the same way priests do, so the point is irrelevant anyway.