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Armyvet007
Guest
Not that much of a strech. You are the one basing your argument on who was present and their roles at the last supper.
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ProVobis
Guest
According to some PBS documentaries, anyone seen by the Romans with those crucified would certainly have been crucified as well. Women not so much.
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TimothyH
Guest
Women would have served the men at the table while the passover was celebrated.
Women were not allowed to serve at the altar in the Jerusalem Temple. That was reserved for the male Levitical priesthood.
But women would have served men at the table as the passover meal was celebrated in individual homes.
-Tim-
Am I?
I am simply responding to the logic that girls should be altar servers based upon tradition established by the Holy Mother.
Here it is…
I would think the various roles played at the first Mass would be the precedent.
I cannot see any other circumstance in which the tradition established is one of serving at His altar.
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Baelor
Guest
You misread yet again. KA did not claim explicitly that Mary set the precedent at serving at the altar, but rather that females serving at the altar did not transgress the example (i.e. general conduct or spiritual state/acts/what have you) set by the Holy Mother.
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Armyvet007
Guest
And the precedent set at the last supper was that it was just Christ and the Apostles. So, that means no non-clergy at the altar. Boy altar servers aren’t clergy. Like I said, not much of a stretch in regards to your logic.
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ByzCathCantor
Guest
How did those documentaries explain St. John’s survival? Just curious …
What example?
B
Baelor
Guest
The example she set for proper conduct in general, and, in this case, for women. Her example in general is not violated by the presence of female altar servers.
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ProVobis
Guest
Fair point. I haven’t seen any documentaries on St John, but how old was he at that time? Didn’t he live past 100 AD?
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TempleServant
Guest
My bold. In the earliest Masses, that’s how it was, I understand. The bishop would say mass, attended by his priests. It was a serious business, back then. People would prepare for weeks.
Wow. Imagine going to a TLM like that. I guess if you live in a dioscese where the Bishop says High Mass on a Sunday, you could see that?
The Church uses the fact all the apostles were men and so was Christ as justification for not letting women be priests. Mary was not a missionary and we hear nothing of the New Testament women, in terms of evangelisation, after the Resurrection, AFAIK. They certainly did not serve in the sanctuary at Mass.
But that is not an example of Altar serving.
That is an example of the servitude that the women religious already work toward.
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Baelor
Guest
No one claimed that Mary served at the altar. And no one is limiting the “example” of Mary to altar serving except you. You are arguing against No-One.
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TimothyH
Guest
Most pastors don’t obsess over such matters. They either permit girls or they don’t, and then delagate training altar servers to a parochial vicar, deacon or trusted lay ministry leader.
The pastor is concerned that the kids are trained properly, that they are not dropping things, and are not distracting people by their appearance and behavior. The pastor of a large parish has many things to do besides micromanaging altar server training and individual tasks of individual servers at specific Masses.
The people who train the altar servers will likely have the bigger kids hold the book because it is heavy and will likely have the older kids manage the thurible because it is hot. The younger kids get to ring the bells, bring the vessels to the altar and purify the priest’s hands. My experience is that the kids line up ten minutes before Mass and the deacon chooses who does what right there.
“You are cross bearer”, “Can you hold the book or is it too heavy? Good, you are book bearer”, “You two will purify the priest’s hands”, “You will stand at the foot of the sanctuary with a purificator while the precious blood is distributed” and so forth, on the fly.
Whether its both boys and girls or only boys, it is all very practical for the priests, deacons and anyone else who trains the servers.
-Tim-
C
Cathryn
Guest
I’m sacristan, and this is how it is in my parish, too.
K
Kathryn_Ann
Guest
A lovely and true statement, ArmyVet! And the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God was the Ark Bearer, the first tabernacle of Our Holy Lord.
Again, the fact that our inspired young girls today serve, knowing full well that they cannot enter the priesthood, show that they only want to serve humbly, as Our Lady showed us being the Handmaiden of God.
Their intent cannot be to the priesthood, as it is not allowed, yet still they come forward in the love of Christ. Some of them may one day be mothers. To learn to work alongside their brothers in Christ-like loving service is beautiful.
The Church has seen the wisdom of allowing them their special place. :angel1:
:heaven:The Holy Father and the Magisterium have allowed altar service to include girls, so they must be inspired in the belief that Our Lord Christ would most certainly allow Our Lady a place there, along with her inspired:angel1::knight1:
daughters and sons.Smile down upon us, Holy Son and Blessed Mother!:heaven::harp:
Kathryn Ann
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Yes it is so in our Church. But I will serve in both Churches.… and it was the women disciples, the myrrh-bearers, that bravely went to the tomb and became the first witnesses of the glorious Resurrection, all while the [male] Apostles were in hiding.
Yet Brother, as you well know, in our Byzantine tradition the presence of males only in the sanctuary is the rule.
That said, while men and women may have different roles, they are both equally important and supporting each other in the service of the Lord. I can certainly tell you that it was always clear in my experience as a “cradle Byzantine” who ran the parish, and the answer was remarkably similar at home!
I have no issues with either rule and prefer neither. I do as the Church says.
Its this little thing called obedience which I have vowed among others.
But I know you are aware of this and are not arguing with me on it, I just thought it was worth noting.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
And we know that PBS gets everything right.
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Corki
Guest
Yes, just about everything to do with altar servers is at the option of the pastor - how many at each Mass, boys only or boys and girls, ages of servers, division of duties, bells or no bells, how they line up in the entrance procession, what they wear, etc.
Not only is it different with each parish, it may be different depending on which priest is saying Mass. Our parish has only one priest but when we have a visiting priest, the first thing the altar servers do is find out how he wants things done.
It has been positted that the example of Mary is why girls should serve.
I merely wish to know what exactly is this example that was given.
You are quite correct. No one has claimed Mary served at the Altar.
So why should her example (one of NOT serving in that capacity) be considered a reason to let girls serve?
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