ALTAR GIRLS POLL---what do you think of them???

[deogratias]

Podo2004:

Iohannes:

Acolytes can only be men and are the main altar servers, therefore in absence of acolytes men or boys should fill their roles. Would it make sense to have a women fill a role of an acolyte when and acolyte can only be male?

I am pretty sure forum rules don’t tolerate swearing.

It is true, girls cannot be Acolytes or Deacons.

They may “act” as an Acolytes in your parish but believe me only men can be installed Acolytes.

I am sure Johannes will give you the exact information on this so I won’t bother to look for it but I have read it.

 

[Podo2004]

Panis Angelicas:

The poll originally was about altar servers.

Servers used to be male only, until in recent years, disobedient priests and bishops permitted girls.

Then, the Holy Father acquiessed and permitted girls to serve if there was a shortage of boys and the bishop consented.

There is a ministry called acolyte which used to be a step toward ordination. It is still ~ and always be ~ all male.

There is no such thing as a female acolyte. Those who say such things are confused between the role of a server and an acolyte. They are not the same thing.

Pax Christi. <><

they are the same. Aha used to be a step! Are we living in the past people? Today is the present!(sigh) i’m a server and i serve with many girls. oh well…

 

[Iohannes]

I simply think Podo has a misunderstand what an acolyte is.

 

[pnewton]

Catholic Eagle says it is a modern fad and not allowed.

Agomemnon calls it insanity and non-catholic ideology.

But Cardinal Arinze writes,“Girls or women may also be admitted to this service of the altar, at the discretion of the diocesan Bishop and in observance of the established norms.”

For those reading this thread, do not be steered wrong by the rhetoric. The church is clear that this is an allowable (not mandated) practice. It is not a fad, insane or non-catholic.

 

[deogratias]

Podo - you are not going to like this but they can’t be installed lectors either.

From the Code of Canon Law:

Can. 230. sec. 1. Lay** men** Viri laici] who possess the age and qualifications established by decree of the conference of bishops can be admitted on a stable basis through the prescribed liturgical rite to the ministries of lector and acolyte. Nevertheless, the conferral of these ministries does not grant them the right to obtain support or remuneration from the Church.

sec. 2. Lay persons Laici] can fulfill the function of lector in liturgical actions by temporary designation. All lay persons Omnes laici] can also perform the functions of commentator or cantor, or other functions, according to the norm of law.

sec. 3. When the need of the Church warrants it and ministers are lacking, lay persons laici], even if they are not lectors or acolytes, can also supply certain of their duties, namely, to exercise the ministry of the word, to preside over liturgical prayers, to confer baptism, and to distribute Holy Communion, according to the precepts of the law.

So probably those female persons you call
Acolytes are only fulfilling the function by temporary designation.

 

[deogratias]

deogratias:

Podo - you are not going to like this but they can’t be installed lectors either.

From the Code of Canon Law:

Can. 230. sec. 1. Lay** men** Viri laici] who possess the age and qualifications established by decree of the conference of bishops can be admitted on a stable basis through the prescribed liturgical rite to the ministries of lector and acolyte. Nevertheless, the conferral of these ministries does not grant them the right to obtain support or remuneration from the Church.

sec. 2. Lay persons Laici] can fulfill the function of lector in liturgical actions by temporary designation. All lay persons Omnes laici] can also perform the functions of commentator or cantor, or other functions, according to the norm of law.

sec. 3. When the need of the Church warrants it and ministers are lacking, lay persons laici], even if they are not lectors or acolytes, can also supply certain of their duties, namely, to exercise the ministry of the word, to preside over liturgical prayers, to confer baptism, and to distribute Holy Communion, according to the precepts of the law.

So probably those female persons you call
Acolytes are only fulfilling the function by temporary designation.

 

[Podo2004]

deogratias:

Podo - you are not going to like this but they can’t be installed lectors either.

From the Code of Canon Law:

Can. 230. sec. 1. Lay** men** Viri laici] who possess the age and qualifications established by decree of the conference of bishops can be admitted on a stable basis through the prescribed liturgical rite to the ministries of lector and acolyte. Nevertheless, the conferral of these ministries does not grant them the right to obtain support or remuneration from the Church.

sec. 2. Lay persons Laici] can fulfill the function of lector in liturgical actions by temporary designation. All lay persons Omnes laici] can also perform the functions of commentator or cantor, or other functions, according to the norm of law.

sec. 3. When the need of the Church warrants it and ministers are lacking, lay persons laici], even if they are not lectors or acolytes, can also supply certain of their duties, namely, to exercise the ministry of the word, to preside over liturgical prayers, to confer baptism, and to distribute Holy Communion, according to the precepts of the law.

So probably those female persons you call
Acolytes are only fulfilling the function by temporary designation.

no they’re permanent

 

[deogratias]

Podo2004:

no they’re permanent

Well they should not be - I just told you per canon law they are not permitted to be installed as acolytes or lectors.

 

[Podo2004]

deogratias:

Well they should not be - I just told you per canon law they are not permitted to be installed as acolytes or lectors.

oh well they’re permanent, so i’m sry to disappoint you deogratias

 

[kwitz]

Panis Angelicas:

Then, the Holy Father acquiessed and permitted girls to serve if there was a shortage of boys and the bishop consented.

We could argue that the Holy Father acquiessed to allow the TLM. My point being that since girls are expressly allowed to be altar servers according to Redemptinis Sacramentum and the TLM indult is expressly allowed, then none of us should have a problem with either occurring. I understand preferences. I prefer the current Mass but would never want to prevent any one from attending a TLM. I understand why you would argue against females but again, they are allowed. See the above quote from RS in post #7. While it states the practice of boy servers is laudable, no where does it say that girls are allowed if and only if boys aren’t available.

Kris

 

[deogratias]

But Cardinal Arinze writes,"Girls or women may also be admitted to this service of the altar, at the discretion of the diocesan Bishop and in observance of the established norms

This is accurate and they are not forbidden. But to be fair, we should post the entire paragraph here.

[47.] It is altogether laudable to maintain the noble custom by which boys or youths, customarily termed servers, provide service of the altar after the manner of acolytes, and receive catechesis regarding their function in accordance with their power of comprehension.[119] Nor should it be forgotten that a great number of sacred ministers over the course of the centuries have come from among boys such as these.[120] Associations for them, including also the participation and assistance of their parents, should be established or promoted, and in such a way greater pastoral care will be provided for the ministers. Whenever such associations are international in nature, it pertains to the competence of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments to establish them or to approve and revise their statutes.[121] Girls or women may also be admitted to this service of the altar, at the discretion of the diocesan Bishop and in observance of the established norms.[122]

Seems clear to me that the preference is for male servers but that girls can be allowed if the diocese permits it. OTOH any individual priest can refuse to use female altar servers and I know a few who do.

 

[Agomemnon]

pnewton:

Catholic Eagle says it is a modern fad and not allowed.

Agomemnon calls it insanity and non-catholic ideology.

But Cardinal Arinze writes,“Girls or women may also be admitted to this service of the altar, at the discretion of the diocesan Bishop and in observance of the established norms.”

For those reading this thread, do not be steered wrong by the rhetoric. The church is clear that this is an allowable (not mandated) practice. It is not a fad, insane or non-catholic.

If they followed the established norms girls could only be used if no men were present. It would be done at the request of the preist adn authorized by the bishop for a ‘particular’ circumstance (non public masses). No priest can have girls assist forced upon him. Also, they would never enter the sanctuary or be vested since the norms are for boys and men only.

This is the supposed indult. Inaestimable Donum clearly states what is expected. John Paul II has stated that his intention for the Bishops is that they follow the Holy Tradition of only boys serving.

Abuse is abuse and can never be made good.

 

[deogratias]

Podo2004:

oh well they’re permanent, so i’m sry to disappoint you deogratias

You are not disappointing me - I don’t make the rule. I am just telling you that they may not be INSTALLED - permanent or not, they are not installed Acolytes

What part of this law don’t you understand?

Canon 230, §1. “Lay men who possess the age and qualifications determined by decree of the conference of bishops can be installed on a stable basis in the ministries of lector and acolyte in accord with the prescribed liturgical rite; the conferral of these ministries, however, does not confer on these lay men a right to obtain support or remuneration from the Church.”

Note. ‘Installation on a permanent or stable basis in these two ministries is

limited to men and to those who have reached the age specified by the conference of bishops. In the United States that age is eighteen. A special liturgical rite is to be followed. Installation, however, is not an order. Episcopal orders are not required to install lay men validly in these ministries; this is to be done by the bishop or the major superior of a religious order. By installation a minister does not acquire any claim to financial support in the Church; he does not become a cleric (c. 266, §1).’ CCLTC, p. 167.

 

[pnewton]

deogratis, right you are that we must be fair. Thank you for posting the rest. Most of us Catholics understand the facts. Girls are allowed. Boys are prefered (for vocational reasons, for one). Priest can chose in their parish to limit service to boys. I just do not think the statements calling any use of girls an abuse, insane, etc., should go unanswered.

Podo, deogratis is also right about laity not being *installed *as acolytes/lecotrs. I just looked it up in canon law and you can to. But then I am no canon lawyer.

 

[deogratias]

Most of us Catholics understand the facts. Girls are allowed. Boys are prefered

Well , most of us Catholics on the forum - I am never sure what the Catholics in the pews (or those who never go to Mass) understand

 

[NM2]

pnewton:

Catholic Eagle says it is a modern fad and not allowed.

Agomemnon calls it insanity and non-catholic ideology.

But Cardinal Arinze writes,“Girls or women may also be admitted to this service of the altar, at the discretion of the diocesan Bishop and in observance of the established norms.”

For those reading this thread, do not be steered wrong by the rhetoric. The church is clear that this is an allowable (not mandated) practice. It is not a fad, insane or non-catholic.

Thank you! :clapping:

 

[Catholic2003]

deogratias:

Seems clear to me that the preference is for male servers but that girls can be allowed if the diocese permits it.

To be fair, RS says that altar boys are to be encouraged, but nowhere does RS say that the proper way to encourage altar boys is by forbidding altar girls.

 

[Catholic2003]

Agomemnon:

If they followed the established norms girls could only be used if no men were present. It would be done at the request of the preist adn authorized by the bishop for a ‘particular’ circumstance (non public masses).

If they followed radical traditionalist norms, then what you say might be true. However, in the current norms that the Church has legitimately established, this is nonsense. If the bishop approves, and the priest does not object, then altar girls may licitly be used, even in public masses, and even if altar boys could be made available.

 

[Tom_of_Assisi]

Hopefully this is simply a disciplinary decision that can be reversed in the future. There is no need in the world for girls to be anywhere near the alter…except to receive communion like all the lay people in the church. Feminist ideology has no place in the Church and the sooner this decision is reversed the better.

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

Catholic2003:

To be fair, RS says that altar boys are to be encouraged, but nowhere does RS say that the proper way to encourage altar boys is by forbidding altar girls.

RS is not the definitive word on altar servers though. The intent of Redemptionis Sacramentum is to curb grave abuses of the Eucharist and set the record straight on a number of things that we have been doing against the rules for ohhhhh, the past 20 years or so, in direct violation of many liturgical documents and books.
Some people seem to want to portray RS as the end-all and final word on every issue in the Church, but it even says that it doesn’t cover everything, if you read it all the way through.
And the purpose of RS is hardly to instruct on “the proper way to encourage altar boys.”