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Spiller
Guest
No it does not…
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laudamus_te
Guest
Oh. Then you’d better write to Father Z and tell him that.
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Lepanto
Guest
Do you always slur the well-meaning people with whom you disagree?Good for you, listen to your Church, not some malcontents within.
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laudamus_te
Guest
Yes, he does. It’s a popular pasttime on this forum.
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Lepanto
Guest
Really? Not everybody thinks it’s settled.
romancatholicwomenpriests.org/
womenpriests.org/index.asp
The debate continues to rage.
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laudamus_te
Guest
You know what’s so sad? These “womenpriests” use the same arguments of “it was done in the ancient practices of the Church” that so many VII cheerleaders use regarding such things as Communion in the hand and deaconesses.
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Lepanto
Guest
The US bishops commission a survey of each year’s ordinands. Page 18 of the 2008 survey of ordinands (link below) has a table showing the top sources of encouragement for young men to consider the priesthood. The top reason for the class of 2008 is that a priest encouraged them to think about it. As the report says, “They were most likely to say they were encouraged by a priest.” (Previous year surveys show the same thing.)
The vast majority of Catholic boys and young men today do NOT attend Catholic schools – and even those who do probably have minimal interaction with priests. The only opportunity for boys to really work side-by-side with a priest and “look up” to a priest as a role model these days is in the context of serving Mass.
usccb.org:8765/cs.html?url=http%3A//www.usccb.org/vocations/classof2008/ClassOf2008%2520Report.doc&charset=iso-8859-1&qt=2007+ordinands&col=&n=3&la=en
The vast majority of Catholic boys and young men today do NOT attend Catholic schools – and even those who do probably have minimal interaction with priests. The only opportunity for boys to really work side-by-side with a priest and “look up” to a priest as a role model these days is in the context of serving Mass.
usccb.org:8765/cs.html?url=http%3A//www.usccb.org/vocations/classof2008/ClassOf2008%2520Report.doc&charset=iso-8859-1&qt=2007+ordinands&col=&n=3&la=en
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CreatioNova
Guest
And there in lys the problem I think - it’s not girls serving at Mass - it’s young boys not having contact with priests. I seriously doubt that a young boy has ever been turned away by a priest for alter service jsut because a girl ‘’ took his place’’ !!
In my parish - you never see the priest outside of Mass or hospital visits or on his way to some meeting or other. This is true of most of the priests I know in nearby parishes. You never see him at youth clubs, you never see him in places where young kids gather.
Im sure he and the others just havent the time.
But this has reminded me of an Augustinian priest I knew growing up - he hung out where we hung out, he ran a youth club, his door was always open to the youth, he started a drop in centre - you saw him at clubs and in bars in his robes, and guess what; 4 of my year explored vocations, two dropped out, two were ordained. None of the four were ever alterboys.
I believe it was the day to day contact with this Augustinian priest that opened their eyes to explore a possible vocation - they saw him in action, they admired what he did, they went and found out more.
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ethelzguy
Guest
Slamming the Church to advance your personal views does not constitute “well meaning”.
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laudamus_te
Guest
Unfortunately, the type of priest that you knew growing up are few and far between, if they exist anywhere at all. Also unfortunately, priests must be careful nowadays of appearing to be in any sort of situation with young boys which could be misconstrued. Not saying that it is good, just an unfortunate byproduct of this sick era we live in.
It is actually a fact that in parishes where altar girls are allowed, the participation of boys has dropped; and in parishes where the use of girls has been revoked, boys return in droves. It’s not that boys are being turned away; they don’t want to do it. I’m not saying this is an across-the-board occurence, but it has been seen. Boys that age feel encroached upon by the girls. Think of the “No Girls Allowed” sign on the treefort!
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CreatioNova
Guest
That’s an interesting point - well made. As the father of two girls I confess to having no clue as to what boys that age might feel - my own memories of that age being long since forgotten in the mists of time
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scylla
Guest
I am still a pretty young father, and I do remember being a boy of that age.
I would never mix with girls as boys really were boys and we preferred the company of boys. We only really mixed with girls when we were forced to, until I reached puberty. Then we mixed with girls because they were attractive to us.
Beyond the feelings part of it all, you might be just fortunate that you are in a parish where plenty of boys serve and girls serve also. In my parish boys rarely serve anymore, they are pushed aside by the girls and the boys do not mind.
It is easier for young boys to not serve and mix with the girls, so they do not do it.
This is not the reason for not having vocations to the Priesthood it is just one factor.
There are many different things built together that kills vocations, not just one thing.
God Bless
Scylla
I would never mix with girls as boys really were boys and we preferred the company of boys. We only really mixed with girls when we were forced to, until I reached puberty. Then we mixed with girls because they were attractive to us.
Beyond the feelings part of it all, you might be just fortunate that you are in a parish where plenty of boys serve and girls serve also. In my parish boys rarely serve anymore, they are pushed aside by the girls and the boys do not mind.
It is easier for young boys to not serve and mix with the girls, so they do not do it.
This is not the reason for not having vocations to the Priesthood it is just one factor.
There are many different things built together that kills vocations, not just one thing.
- Boys being discouraged from being Priests.
- Priests being insulted and looked down upon.
- Boys not being encouraged to serve, or not making it exclusive for boys.
- Making the Priesthood not look like it is something special or good.
God Bless
Scylla
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laudamus_te
Guest
Very true. It is just one of many things which contribute to a lack of vocations. I would say that probably the most important one is the loss of a priests’ identity. The New Mass pretty much took care of that. We are all “priests.”
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ethelzguy
Guest
Certainly one that stands out in my mind. Week after week, priests get critiqued and criticized by their congregation. Something we wouldn’t have dreamed of doing back in the day.
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snhs
Guest
It is not actively denying the Priesthood a vocation in and of itself. However seeing 5-6 girls serving, and few if any older boys, is liable to put younger boys off. That in turn reduces the number of boys who become Altar boys and may prevent them hearing any calling as clearly as they might helping the Priest at the Altar week in week out. The other thing is every girl serving can be one less boy, and while in Parishes where there really aren’t enough/are no boys to serve there may be a case for it but in many others boys don’t serve as often as they could. This is particularly true of the more ‘involved’ liturgies, Triduum Services, Christmas Vigil etc, but it can also be true of Sunday Masses.
With respect I think you are looking for the wrong statistics. Looking at the ‘conversion rate’ is fairly useless because however small the percentage of Altar boys becoming Priests are the percentage of Altar girls becoming Priests will be 0. I have however seen surveys which suggest somewhere in the region of 85%-90% of Priests were Altar boys, including Pope Benedict and Pope JPII.
Where the ‘conversion rate’ does become useful though is in seeing very clearly why Altar boys should be preferred. Overall we have approximately the same number of Masses and Churches as 40 years ago, similarly the number of servers required for these Masses has, in most Diocese/Parishes, remained fairly constant. Hence the same number of servers are required to cover the Masses. Assuming that we now have an equal split, half boys half girls, and the ‘conversion rate’ for Altar boys to Priests has remained constant we have effectively cut the number of Priests we get from this avenue in half, which I think everyone can agree is the exact opposite of what the Church should be doing given the current difficulties facing it.
Despite that I think you have probably made the right decision given the situation you were in. The fact is a lot of the ‘damage’ of having Altar girls has already been done, and one more probably isn’t going to make a lot of difference in the long term apart from making it slightly easier for the Priest to have enough servers at each Mass. I do think it is important that you consider explaining to your daughter what the traditional position is and why some Priests/lay people support it. And I’m not saying this so you try to put her off serving, its just that, however unlikely, any visiting Priest is allowed to tell her she’s not serving (quite possibly while the boys are allowed) and the PP can decide at any time to get rid of the Altar girls. Its probably better that she is aware of that now to avoid any hurt feelings later.
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CreatioNova
Guest
This never occured to me. Thanks for making the point. And thank you all for you contributions.
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ethelzguy
Guest
Keep in mind, that the likelihood of that happening is practically nil. Priests aren’t without feelings or charity.
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JuanCarlos
Guest
Just because something allowed doesn’t make it prudent. Girls may licitly serve Mass with a priest at the Ordinary Form, but it is simply my belief that this is extremely damaging to vocations. As posted previously, Church positions that are opened to women quickly become dominated by women- I was once a lector and (mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa) an EMHC, and not only were all the EMHC “leaders” women, I was one of about three male EMHC’s- there were a good 20 or so females. Girls tend to be more religious than guys anyway, so this is not surprising. Keeping male only positions is the only way to force a balance.
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JuanCarlos
Guest
As well, we must also question why a centuries old custom of males only in the altar (girls were traditionally only allowed in the altar for baptism, the Churching of Women, and weddings) was so strongly enforced- why is the modern Catholic so special that they get all these changed rules?
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Spiller
Guest
Keep in mind I follow the Catholic Church and not “Fr. Z.”
I am well aware of the comments the Church makes about the praiseworthiness of having boys serve at the altar and that many priestly vocations have been realized through these young men.
What you suggest however is not what the Church has instructed.
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