Am I a bad Catholic if I support laws on immigration?

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This is a logical fallacy. One doesn’t have to know immigrants to know the issue, and I don’t see people who are angry other than the people who aren’t getting into Hungary and just seemed to expect a free pass.

Look, some of the liberal secularists would clearly like Americans to believe that it’s only hard-working Mexican families crossing the Southern border. The fact is that people from all over the place cross over that border, often at their leisure.

And the situation with the EU is VERY different. Europe has major immigration problems that the media often cover up, and their immigrants are not assimilating.

Now, there are some things in the EU that they should assimilate, like so-called gay “marriage”, but they often live in very isolated communities.
So, how many illegal immigrants do you , in fact, know? Are you friends with them? Do you sit beside them at Mass? Have you been to a Baptism of their children?
There are PEOPLE. Not facts on a spreadsheet.
That’s the “catholic” way to look at it.
Servant of free, Gentile or Jew, woman or man…
 
So, how many illegal immigrants do you , in fact, know? Are you friends with them? Do you sit beside them at Mass? Have you been to a Baptism of their children?
There are PEOPLE. Not facts on a spreadsheet.
That’s the “catholic” way to look at it.
Servant of free, Gentile or Jew, woman or man…
I know some. None of them are Mexicans but people who have a overstayed their visas. I do not see them as horrible people but they are still breaking the law. Why should people who break the law get preferential treatment over those who try to immigrate legally?

Think of it from the point of view of someone who is trying to immigrate legally. They see people just come in and get free stuff and a path to citizenship. All this for breaking the law. Now what about the person who is trying to immigrate legally? He/she has to wait years and for what? To see law breakers get rewarded and they in turn are punished for trying to respect the laws of a country they are trying to move to.
 
I know some. None of them are Mexicans but people who have a overstayed their visas. I do not see them as horrible people but they are still breaking the law. Why should people who break the law get preferential treatment over those who try to immigrate legally?

Think of it from the point of view of someone who is trying to immigrate legally. They see people just come in and get free stuff and a path to citizenship. All this for breaking the law. Now what about the person who is trying to immigrate legally? He/she has to wait years and for what? To see law breakers get rewarded and they in turn are punished for trying to respect the laws of a country they are trying to move to.
My husband immigrated legally. Cost a fortune. He didn’t have any resentment toward others. Honest. And, by the way, I can’t think of any “free stuff” that people are getting. This is the thing:
No one offered my husband any free stuff. I don’t know any immigrant who is getting any,
This is the argument that people use to inflame others. (Not you, just saying). It’s simply not true.
Case in point: My daughter is a full blown American citizen. Due to circumstances, her insurance went away, she’s mildly disabled, and she has had to go to the ER three times in the last 12 months because they will not remove her gall bladder until it bursts. She’s in constant pain. The ER says they MUST see her.
But then, they also send us a bill for $5000 for each visit. There’s nothing FREE for anyone.
I would like to know what the “rewards” are. Being stopped at a red light for no reason? I thought we outlawed profiling.
People have this notion that you’re scott free if you can get across. You’re not.
It’s not a great life. But it’s better than where they came from.
Why is it when we view National Geographic we have all kinds of concern, but the reality of these things happening causes all kinds of drama and angst.
I don’t begrudge anyone a safe place to live and a decent job.
My ancestors came with the Conquistadors. My dad was a federal employee.
But, I suppose I should pack my bags and go back to Spain. 🤷
 
Agreed, my great grandfather never spoke English. My grandfather and his siblings spoke Italian with him. And this wasn’t in a big city, but in the Pocono Mountains in PA.
They took awhile to learn the language and maybe some never did but at least the majority worked hard and raised their families as Americans. They didn’t depend on the Government to take care of them. Yes there is a BIG difference between then and now and every country has to grow. It’s to bad we are now growing in the wrong way. God Bless, Memaw
 
My husband immigrated legally. Cost a fortune. He didn’t have any resentment toward others. Honest. And, by the way, I can’t think of any “free stuff” that people are getting. This is the thing:
No one offered my husband any free stuff. I don’t know any immigrant who is getting any,
This is the argument that people use to inflame others. (Not you, just saying). It’s simply not true.
Case in point: My daughter is a full blown American citizen. Due to circumstances, her insurance went away, she’s mildly disabled, and she has had to go to the ER three times in the last 12 months because they will not remove her gall bladder until it bursts. She’s in constant pain. The ER says they MUST see her.
But then, they also send us a bill for $5000 for each visit. There’s nothing FREE for anyone.
I would like to know what the “rewards” are. Being stopped at a red light for no reason? I thought we outlawed profiling.
People have this notion that you’re scott free if you can get across. You’re not.
It’s not a great life. But it’s better than where they came from.
Why is it when we view National Geographic we have all kinds of concern, but the reality of these things happening causes all kinds of drama and angst.
I don’t begrudge anyone a safe place to live and a decent job.
My ancestors came with the Conquistadors. My dad was a federal employee.
But, I suppose I should pack my bags and go back to Spain. 🤷
Immigration policy needs to be reformed. I do not begrudge anyone a safe place to live and a decent job. However by looking the other way with the case of undocumented immigrants, we expose them to unscrupulous people who exploit them. I should know. A cousin of mine overstayed her visa and was victimized by unscrupulous employers who took advantage of her fear of getting caught. Luckily my family sponsored her and she was able to obtain legal status. Years ago I attended church where the parishioners decided to sponsor refugees who were fleeing the violence in their native lands like Somalia and Myanmar. I remember chipping in so these refugees have enough to establish a home here and obtain status as a legal immigrant. This way they can settle down and not have to look over their shoulder in fear of the law.

What needs to be done is to provide an easier way for people to immigrate legally while screening out people who are a menace to the country.
 
I agree.

For some reason the press does not distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants and slander those who are against illegal immigration as being racists.
A year or so ago, Senior VP and Executive Editor of the AP changed what is called their Style Book. She deemed “illegal alien” to be offensive and that all reporters weren’t suppose to say that anymore.

As far as being called a racist, that is a very old school game. The assumption is that if I can’t win my argument or bully you into rejecting your opinion, then I will call you a racist. It’s suppose to catch you off guard, make you back pedal, and retreat. It’s a tactic that was successful. However, it is now finally losing its ‘magic’ as people are not running away anymore. They are actually listening to WHY they are being called a racist and standing up, saying no, I am not a racist and the second you used that term with me it shows that you have no leg to stand on except bullying tactics.

The minute you say that, you will see that person explode in front of you. Bullies don’t rely on logic or the truth, they rely on scare tactics. When you stand up to them, you remove all of their power, which is nothing more than an illusion in the first place. Remember the old story of the emperor has no clothes.
 
=pianistclare;13295570]So, how many illegal immigrants do you , in fact, know? Are you friends with them? Do you sit beside them at Mass? Have you been to a Baptism of their children?
Interesting question. I remember during an under-cover investigation in the UK, a British media outlet found a Muslim preacher who went to an interfaith conference was preaching hate at the mosque he was at.

Should I then extrapolate how immigrants and minorities act in the UK based on that? :ehhh:

As I already said, one does not need to know illegal immigrants to understand the issue. Doubling down on the “you have to know them/do you know them” fallacy does not help the pro-immigration argument.

In fact, American progressives (ie many of whom want to destroy the Church) use that line of reasoning.

It is emotional and not based on the facts.

In fact knowing immigrants and being personally/emotionally invested in them may lead to bias.
There are PEOPLE. Not facts on a spreadsheet.
No one has said other otherwise, but again emotionally resorting to such extremes that I did not make reference to in an attempt to put me in the defensive will not work.
That’s the “catholic” way to look at it.
Not entirely. The Church calls for a balanced policy. And we, as Catholics, are also called to **avoid scandal **in immigration and in everything else. A lot of these migrants probably have nefarious motives and are coached to say the right thing get into other countries. Others accomplish it through things like marriage fraud.

It’s also interesting that in the current middle east crisis, 72% of the “refugees” are men.

That’s startling.
Servant of free, Gentile or Jew, woman or man…
That’s in reference to the Body of Christ, not necessarily immigration policy in the sense that we should have open borders. As I have repeatedly said, the Church has spoken about a balance between letting people in and preserving national, sovereign rights.
 
=pianistclare;13295758]My husband immigrated legally. Cost a fortune. He didn’t have any resentment toward others. Honest. And, by the way, I can’t think of any “free stuff” that people are getting. This is the thing:
I’m sure your husband had to jump through a lot of hoops to get here because he did it the right way, and that’s one of the things people refer to when they say we have a broken system.

The problem with big government is that more times than not, those who try to be honest are the ones who get punished with all of the red tape, when it would just be easier to book a flight from Dublin to Mexico City and make your way north.
No one offered my husband any free stuff.
Of course not! Your husband is a First Worlder who followed the process.
I don’t know any immigrant who is getting any,
Again, you don’t have to “know” someone for it not to be happening.
This is the argument that people use to inflame others. (Not you, just saying).
Well, it probably does upset a lot of people when their kids can’t get an in-state tuition for college, but illegal immigrants can, for one.
It’s simply not true.
There’s a lot of people who get benefits who should not.
Case in point: My daughter is a full blown American citizen. Due to circumstances, her insurance went away, she’s mildly disabled, and she has had to go to the ER three times in the last 12 months because they will not remove her gall bladder until it bursts. She’s in constant pain. The ER says they MUST see her.
But then, they also send us a bill for $5000 for each visit. There’s nothing FREE for anyone.
That’s more a failure of health care policy than it is of immigration.
I would like to know what the “rewards” are.
Well, just look at the Third World and it’s easy to see why. I’ve been there and stayed in a shack for a week. It’s not terribly pleasant.

But really it is the welfare system that attracts people here. It is a driver as to why a lot of people come, and yes, people around the hemisphere and probably the globe know about. Word about that gets around quick—just like after Columbus sailed to the Caribbean.

It’s how the world is.
I thought we outlawed profiling.
Well, we need to profile people to keep this country safe. Israel does it all the time.
People have this notion that you’re scott free if you can get across. You’re not.
It’s not a great life. But it’s better than where they came from.
That’s very true. A lot of people get exploited, as someone else said. I also pointed out earlier that it’s not just hard-working, Church-going Mexican families who come here illegally either. In fact, there’s even slavery going on in this country because of the failed immigration policy.
I don’t begrudge anyone a safe place to live and a decent job.
I don’t think the VAST majority of Americans do.
 
Immigration policy needs to be reformed. I do not begrudge anyone a safe place to live and a decent job. However by looking the other way with the case of undocumented immigrants, we expose them to unscrupulous people who exploit them. I should know. A cousin of mine overstayed her visa and was victimized by unscrupulous employers who took advantage of her fear of getting caught. Luckily my family sponsored her and she was able to obtain legal status. Years ago I attended church where the parishioners decided to sponsor refugees who were fleeing the violence in their native lands like Somalia and Myanmar. I remember chipping in so these refugees have enough to establish a home here and obtain status as a legal immigrant. This way they can settle down and not have to look over their shoulder in fear of the law.

What needs to be done is to provide an easier way for people to immigrate legally while screening out people who are a menace to the country.
👍

I think you just hit the nail on the head.
 
Immigration policy needs to be reformed. I do not begrudge anyone a safe place to live and a decent job. However by looking the other way with the case of undocumented immigrants, we expose them to unscrupulous people who exploit them. I should know. A cousin of mine overstayed her visa and was victimized by unscrupulous employers who took advantage of her fear of getting caught. Luckily my family sponsored her and she was able to obtain legal status. Years ago I attended church where the parishioners decided to sponsor refugees who were fleeing the violence in their native lands like Somalia and Myanmar. I remember chipping in so these refugees have enough to establish a home here and obtain status as a legal immigrant. This way they can settle down and not have to look over their shoulder in fear of the law.

What needs to be done is to provide an easier way for people to immigrate legally while screening out people who are a menace to the country.
Well that is exactly the distinction. YES.
I think most sane people are in favor of immigration REFORM.
But you and I both know there are people who just hate Mexicans any anyone else here who wasn’t born here…and they want the borders closed.
This kind of unilateral hatred is not the Gospel message. We should at least TRY to live the Gospel.
Peace.
 
So, how many illegal immigrants do you , in fact, know? Are you friends with them? Do you sit beside them at Mass? Have you been to a Baptism of their children?
There are PEOPLE. Not facts on a spreadsheet.
That’s the “catholic” way to look at it.
Servant of free, Gentile or Jew, woman or man…
You are failing to make a point.

I’ve personally worked as an illegal immigrant but I recognize it didn’t give me the automatic right to legal status. I then found sponsorship and became a legal alien. If I had been sent home, I wouldn’t have complained.

Illegal immigrants already have a home country. In most cases it’s less ideal than the US but hardly equivalent to the Russian gulags. If a country is badly managed or in trouble, we can and do offer help and try to influence. Taking large numbers of illegals does nothing to improve the life for those left back home, that can’t afford the trip or have obligations.

You could make a good analogy with families. Kids don’t just get to join the family of the rich neighbor because they perceive they have a better life. Except for the extremely dysfunctional, we need to focus on living a good life with the family God gave us (so to speak). Legal immigration is akin to getting married or adoption, there is a high bar for it to happen.
 
All I know is that I work for the Church. When people present themselves here they are children of God. We don’t ask to see papers, and we don’t tell them they can’t find empathy here.

I agree with the high bar.
It’s so high, most people can’t begin to approach it.
Hence, the need fro reform. Not locked borders.
You are failing to make a point.

I’ve personally worked as an illegal immigrant but I recognize it didn’t give me the automatic right to legal status. I then found sponsorship and became a legal alien. If I had been sent home, I wouldn’t have complained.

Illegal immigrants already have a home country. In most cases it’s less ideal than the US but hardly equivalent to the Russian gulags. If a country is badly managed or in trouble, we can and do offer help and try to influence. Taking large numbers of illegals does nothing to improve the life for those left back home, that can’t afford the trip or have obligations.

You could make a good analogy with families. Kids don’t just get to join the family of the rich neighbor because they perceive they have a better life. Except for the extremely dysfunctional, we need to focus on living a good life with the family God gave us (so to speak). Legal immigration is akin to getting married or adoption, there is a high bar for it to happen.
 
I’m sure your husband had to jump through a lot of hoops to get here because he did it the right way, and that’s one of the things people refer to when they say we have a broken system.

The problem with big government is that more times than not, those who try to be honest are the ones who get punished with all of the red tape, when it would just be easier to book a flight from Dublin to Mexico City and make your way north.

Of course not! Your husband is a First Worlder who followed the process.

Again, you don’t have to “know” someone for it not to be happening.

Where can illegal immigrants get funding for college? :confused:
Georgians can go to state schools fro free if they have the grades.
My daughter went to college for free.

Well, it probably does upset a lot of people when their kids can’t get an in-state tuition for college, but illegal immigrants can, for one.

There’s a lot of people who get benefits who should not.

That’s more a failure of health care policy than it is of immigration.

Well, just look at the Third World and it’s easy to see why. I’ve been there and stayed in a shack for a week. It’s not terribly pleasant.

But really it is the welfare system that attracts people here. It is a driver as to why a lot of people come, and yes, people around the hemisphere and probably the globe know about. Word about that gets around quick—just like after Columbus sailed to the Caribbean.

It’s how the world is.

Well, we need to profile people to keep this country safe. Israel does it all the time.

That’s very true. A lot of people get exploited, as someone else said. I also pointed out earlier that it’s not just hard-working, Church-going Mexican families who come here illegally either. In fact, there’s even slavery going on in this country because of the failed immigration policy.

I don’t think the VAST majority of Americans do.
 
All I know is that I work for the Church. When people present themselves here they are children of God. We don’t ask to see papers, and we don’t tell them they can’t find empathy here.

I agree with the high bar.
It’s so high, most people can’t begin to approach it.
Hence, the need fro reform. Not locked borders.
What you do at the church doors is not the same as what must be done at a border crossing. If their home country is so bad, our focus should be on fixing that situation.

If a large family had an abusive parent, why would you only adopt the child who wandered into your driveway and ignore the rest of the family still back with the abusive parents? Doing so is a very shallow but feel good response.

We do offer legal asylum and refugee status, and maybe the requirements deserve to be tweaked, but they should be ignored for accepting the vast majority of economic migrants.

Using the family analogy, most economic migrants come from stable but less prosperous families. Our focus should be on making that family more prosperous, to benefit the lives of all it’s members.
 
What you do at the church doors is not the same as what must be done at a border crossing. If their home country is so bad, our focus should be on fixing that situation.

**Fix the world problems? I think the US is mostly fed up with doing that, **

If a large family had an abusive parent, why would you only adopt the child who wandered into your driveway and ignore the rest of the family still back with the abusive parents? Doing so is a very shallow but feel good response.

**Compassion is never shallow. Read the Passion. **

We do offer legal asylum and refugee status, and maybe the requirements deserve to be tweaked, but they should be ignored for accepting the vast majority of economic migrants.

**Who said anything about ignoring? I’m talking about the tone of hatred currently brewing towards people who have dignity as children of God. **

Using the family analogy, most economic migrants come from stable but less prosperous families. Our focus should be on making that family more prosperous, to benefit the lives of all it’s members.
**By sending jobs to Mexico? You’ll get a lot of flack for that one. **

I guess we just have to agree to disagree.
I don’t know why Americans fear immigrants so much.
And don’t kid yourself, it’s fear. It’s thinking and believing that they take something from us by their presence.

I’m out. This is way too upsetting.
Yes, I have feelings. There have been people without compassion and feelings in history…it never turns out well.

Pope Francis feels differently, I’m sure. I take my cues from the Church, not politicians.
 
This poem by Emma Lazarus was tacked on after the Statue of Liberty had been standing for almost twenty years. It is more than ironic that the author was a Zionist. She advocated an exclusive home for her people.

While the poem might be nice sentiment it was never reality. If anyone welcomed refuse it was mostly to exploit their labor. The native worker was never as welcoming as the business interests because it was his labor that was being devalued. The government didn’t mind fodder for its army. The politicians didn’t mind ethic voting blocks. Those who wanted to destabilize society never minded the diversity that would do this. It may be true that the poor immigrant will have a better life in this country. But it will come at the expense of our poor and middle class and not at the expense of the wealthy elite.
 
What you do at the church doors is not the same as what must be done at a border crossing. If their home country is so bad, our focus should be on fixing that situation.

If a large family had an abusive parent, why would you only adopt the child who wandered into your driveway and ignore the rest of the family still back with the abusive parents? Doing so is a very shallow but feel good response.
Very good analogy.
 
What you do at the church doors is not the same as what must be done at a border crossing. If their home country is so bad, our focus should be on fixing that situation.

If a large family had an abusive parent, why would you only adopt the child who wandered into your driveway and ignore the rest of the family still back with the abusive parents? Doing so is a very shallow but feel good response.

We do offer legal asylum and refugee status, and maybe the requirements deserve to be tweaked, but they should be ignored for accepting the vast majority of economic migrants.

Using the family analogy, most economic migrants come from stable but less prosperous families. Our focus should be on making that family more prosperous, to benefit the lives of all it’s members.
The US has fixed El Salvador and Honduras in the 1970s-80s.
 
All I know is that I work for the Church. When people present themselves here they are children of God. We don’t ask to see papers, and we don’t tell them they can’t find empathy here.

I agree with the high bar.
It’s so high, most people can’t begin to approach it.
Hence, the need fro reform. Not locked borders.
The Church should NEVER exclude anyone for not having papers.

But government has a different duty and border security is not locked borders. Having locked borders substantially hurts commerce.

Is that mean?

Well if it is, should I be able to go to Mexico, France or Quebec and expect people to speak English?
I don’t know why Americans fear immigrants so much.
I don’t think most Americans fear immigrants themselves, they are worried that immigrants are not assimilating as they should be, and in some cases don’t have the skills to contribute to our society. It also doesn’t help when racist-leaning groups like La Raza with some members effectively saying they are going to take back parts of the West.

Additionally, many illegals have committed capital crimes, and the chances of that happening go down if we screen who comes in and who doesn’t.

Back in the day, you could speak your native language at home, as my family did, but there weren’t all of these teachers who spoke Somali, Spanish, Urdu, Russian or whatever. People were expected to learn English and adapt to the American culture.
 
If anyone thinks the USA has mean immigration standards, you ought to see what the UK, Canada and Mexico have done…
 
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