Am I a bad Catholic if I support laws on immigration?

[gardenswithkids]

Pope Francis, in his address to Congress today, cited “The Golden Rule” in regards to immigration. If we base our views on immigration on “The Golden Rule” as Pope Francis said, we might come to a different opinion than someone else might, even if we both base our opinions on how we’d want to be treated. Honestly, some of the stories that I’ve read about underage children leaving their parents and placing themselves in dangerous situations to come to the US has my heart breaking!

Reasonable people can disagree about what the best immigration policies are. God judges our hearts.

 

[Theo520]

Pope Francis, in his address to Congress today, cited “The Golden Rule” in regards to immigration. If we base our views on immigration on “The Golden Rule” as Pope Francis said, we might come to a different opinion than someone else might, even if we both base our opinions on how we’d want to be treated. Honestly, some of the stories that I’ve read about underage children leaving their parents and placing themselves in dangerous situations to come to the US has my heart breaking!

Reasonable people can disagree about what the best immigration policies are. God judges our hearts.

The children are mostly being sent by their parents, where do you think they got the $$ for the trip and to pay the people smuggler?

If we sincerely believe their Govt is inept, then the focus should be on changing that govt. If your neighbor was abusing his family, why would you only help the child that wandered into your driveway during a bbq but ignore the 10 siblings still back home.

 

[SWolf]

Wait…

So it’s against Catholic teaching to have an immigration policy that requires one to be Catholic to enter? It’s against Catholic teaching to have an immigration policy that is limited to a certain cultural ethnicity?

There is a moral imperative to give shelter and support to refugees, even theoretically if of different ethnicities or religion, but I do not see Catholic teaching requiring them to be allowed to become full citizens…

 

[SWolf]

Could you please point me to where it says that?

 

[SWolf]

It does not say what you claim it says.

CCC 2241

2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

*Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. *Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.

I do not see anything explicitly unjust about a society that wants a strict Catholic identity, and manages it’s immigration accordingly.

 

[SWolf]

Immigration is not a fundamental personal right.

 

[SWolf]

The Supreme Court says we have to let everyone into our sovereign country regardless of social condition?

If this was the care, the State has NO condition where they can limit immigration.

We are obligated to care for the refugee. That is already established. There is no fundamental right to become a citizen of the country or a fundamental right to stay in the country once the crisis has passed.

1. Moreover, limiting immigration based on religion is clearly discrimination that the church would never sanction. If Catholics were suffering in a part of the world, being beaten, tortured, starved, murdered, due to their religion, and sought entry into, say, Saudi Arabia, and the Saudi’s said "no, sorry, we are seeking to preserve our “strict Muslim identity” (to use your phraseology), do you honestly believe our Church would say: “hey, no problem”?

This falls under the refugee umbrella again. The same rules apply.

Every form of social or cultural discrimination in fundamental personal rights on the grounds of sex, race, color, social conditions, language, or religion must be curbed and eradicated as incompatible with God’s design

Laws that are inherently unjust because they are based on ethnic, religious, gender, or race quotas? Or laws that merely attempt to prevent the influx of criminals or people with communicable diseases?

If this applied to immigration, the uneducated, the diseased, felons, etc. would fall under the “Social conditions” umbrella, which means we would need to let criminals, the diseased, etc. into the country.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

I know some. None of them are Mexicans but people who have a overstayed their visas. I do not see them as horrible people but they are still breaking the law. Why should people who break the law get preferential treatment over those who try to immigrate legally?

Think of it from the point of view of someone who is trying to immigrate legally. They see people just come in and get free stuff and a path to citizenship. All this for breaking the law. Now what about the person who is trying to immigrate legally? He/she has to wait years and for what? To see law breakers get rewarded and they in turn are punished for trying to respect the laws of a country they are trying to move to.

I wouldn’t call picking strawberries for $0.50 an hour “free stuff.”

People shouldn’t have to suffer through poverty and/or war just because they don’t have the resources to get their papers in order.

 

[Sarcelle]

I wouldn’t call picking strawberries for $0.50 an hour “free stuff.”

People shouldn’t have to suffer through poverty and/or war just because they don’t have the resources to get their papers in order.

This is why we need to reform the law to make it easier for people to immigrate. Then no one needs to suffer through poverty or war. This way they have a lawful path to citizenship.

The solution is reform of the law. Looking the other way when people come here illegally only to be exploited by the unscrupulous is not the Catholic way.

 

[Hockeygurl]

What Deacon said!

The non-Catholic right often twists what the bishops say about immigration and the liberal (heretical) Catholic left often twists what the bishops say too.

We have an obligation to have a system that allows people (who are honest, hard working, moral people looking for a better life) to legally immigrate to the United States. That is what America is.

However, we also have a right to protect our borders against criminals and other people who illegally come to the United States.

The problem is “what to do with the children?” When an illegal comes into the United States and has a child on US soil, that child is an American citizen. What do you do when you catch the illegal immigrant?

If they are violent criminals, I believe you can deport the parent(s), keeping the child here because it would be no different than sending the parent to jail. But what do you do with the peaceful illegal parent?
– if you deport the family, you wind up deporting an American citizen too (not good)
– if you deport just the parent(s), you break up a loving family (not good)
– if you do nothing, then there are no consequences for breaking the law (not good)
– so what do you do?
---- My opinion is that for peaceful illegals with American children (you “fine” the parents with giving them a sentence of community service, matching their skills.
-------- planting trees, picking up trash, cutting grass/landscaping on public lands, being a janitor, etc. In addition to their regular job, they have to do X hours of community service. That time could be spread out over years, if they could only commit to a few hours a week.

The point is, we can’t just cast a blanket and say “we don’t want Mexicans here.” That’s racist. AND it’s discriminatory against Catholics.

Throughout American history, the immigrants the people were always against the most were Catholic. The Irish, Italians, Polish, and now Mexicans. This is a recurring theme in America. Food for thought.

God Bless!

The issue is. It is illegal to enter the US without going through the proper channels. This is breaking the LAW. These people are aware of this but do it anyway, and therefore deserve to face the consequences.

I.E. I commit fraud. I have broken the law. If I go to jail, it is because I broke the LAW!. Even if it tears my family apart, I have to face the consequences.

I have empathy, but the law is the law and we just can’t let people pick and choose ones they don’t agree with to defy.

Go through proper channels, change immigration laws… whatever, but until then they are committing a crime and must face certain consequences of this.

 

[phil19034]

The issue is. It is illegal to enter the US without going through the proper channels. This is breaking the LAW. These people are aware of this but do it anyway, and therefore deserve to face the consequences.

I.E. I commit fraud. I have broken the law. If I go to jail, it is because I broke the LAW!. Even if it tears my family apart, I have to face the consequences.

I have empathy, but the law is the law and we just can’t let people pick and choose ones they don’t agree with to defy.

Go through proper channels, change immigration laws… whatever, but until then they are committing a crime and must face certain consequences of this.

Like I said, there should be a consequence. However, I simply believe that the sentence for illegal immigrants with American children, and without any other crimes, should be community service and that they must be actively in the process of becoming a citizen (not fast tracked, but must be in the process of legalizing their status. Their sentence of community service should be carried out for X amount of hours OR continued until their status is normalized.

 

[JanetF]

Most people don’t realize how much immigrants from Latin America do in fact contribute to our economy. There would be HUGE repercussions if we closed the borders and didn’t allow any migrant workers to come to the US. Who is going to pick all the fruits and vegetables, just for starters? I’ve been saying all of my adult life, “I don’t have a problem with immigration, I have a problem with ILLEGAL immigration”. I agree that something needs to be done, but deporting all is not the answer, IMHO

 

[starshiptrooper]

Like I said, there should be a consequence. However, I simply believe that the sentence for illegal immigrants with American children, and without any other crimes, should be community service and that they must be actively in the process of becoming a citizen (not fast tracked, but must be in the process of legalizing their status. Their sentence of community service should be carried out for X amount of hours OR continued until their status is normalized.

Then what incentive is there to follow the laws if you still get in by breaking them?

Most people don’t realize how much immigrants from Latin America do in fact contribute to our economy. There would be HUGE repercussions if we closed the borders and didn’t allow any migrant workers to come to the US. Who is going to pick all the fruits and vegetables, just for starters? I’ve been saying all of my adult life, “I don’t have a problem with immigration, I have a problem with ILLEGAL immigration”. I agree that something needs to be done, but deporting all is not the answer, IMHO

Simple, keep the requirements for citizenship, alter the conditions for birthright citizenship, and then we can talk about expanding the guest worker program.

 

[otjm]

What you do at the church doors is not the same as what must be done at a border crossing. If their home country is so bad, our focus should be on fixing that situation.

Like we did in Iraq? Or Afghanistan? Or Egypt? Oh my, We helped throw out a dictator! And what did we get? The Muslim Brotherhood, of which certain people in our government couldn’t manage to spit out the words “terrorist backers”. And it wasn’t until the military in Egypt rolled them up like an old carpet that some sense of stability returned.

Yeah, we are really good at “fixing” those situations. Seems like we did not learn from our elder brethren, who were the ones who broke up the middle east, which in turn set up some of the problems we are still “fixing”.

 

[Theo520]

Most people don’t realize how much immigrants from Latin America do in fact contribute to our economy. There would be HUGE repercussions if we closed the borders and didn’t allow any migrant workers to come to the US. Who is going to pick all the fruits and vegetables, just for starters? I’ve been saying all of my adult life, “I don’t have a problem with immigration, I have a problem with ILLEGAL immigration”. I agree that something needs to be done, but deporting all is not the answer, IMHO

It’s only in the liberal strawman where all immigrants are banned. We have a functional seasonal ag worker visa program that can be expanded to meet demand. That would improve both pay and working conditions for seasonal farm workers.

Like we did in Iraq? Or Afghanistan? Or Egypt? Oh my, We helped throw out a dictator! And what did we get? The Muslim Brotherhood, of which certain people in our government couldn’t manage to spit out the words “terrorist backers”. And it wasn’t until the military in Egypt rolled them up like an old carpet that some sense of stability returned.

Yeah, we are really good at “fixing” those situations. Seems like we did not learn from our elder brethren, who were the ones who broke up the middle east, which in turn set up some of the problems we are still “fixing”.

Well if we can’t fix them and we can’t invite all of them over to live with us, then maybe we should focus our efforts on getting our own house in order, providing a better example of governance.

 

[otjm]

The US has fixed El Salvador and Honduras in the 1970s-80s.

You might want to do a little research. I would suggest starting with MS 13 - Mara Salvatrucha. They are out of El Salvador, and active in about 40 cities, with about 10,000 gang members. Some have been deported back to El Salvador, which simply relocated the proble, as El Salvador does not have the infrastructure to deal with them. Their influence even reaches into the ruling political parties there.

The 18th Street Gang, aka M-18 or Barrio 18, is spread from Central Ameica to the U.S. and Canada. Drug sales, murder for hire, extortion, prostitution, kidnapping. Membership primarily of Mexican descent, but now open to others is estimated in the tens of thousands.

The Mexican Mafia, aka Emeros or EME. Drugs, racketeering,paid hits, and fraud are among their specialties.

Tjhe Rollin’ 60 Neighborhood Crips - 2,000+ members, specialize in banbk robberies, car jackings, keadly weapons assaults, home invasions and rape.

Barrio azteca of Los Azteca, with several thousand members are spread from New Mexico and Texas to Massachusetts and Pennsylvania, are affiliated with the Juarez Drug Cartel in Mexico, and are knows for cocaine trafficing, high profile murders and even prison massacres.

So we get some and we end up shipping them back. and the countries simply do not have the political and economic will to deal with the gangs, and the situation goes from bad to worse.

Yes, there hare hundreds of thousands, even millions who are not gangs. But let’s not kid ourselves about how great those countries are doing.

 

[otjm]

It’s only in the liberal strawman where all immigrants are banned. We have a functional seasonal ag worker visa program that can be expanded to meet demand. That would improve both pay and working conditions for seasonal farm workers.

Well if we can’t fix them and we can’t invite all of them over to live with us, then maybe we should focus our efforts on getting our own house in order, providing a better example of governance.

well, Trump has said he is going to start doing that, and given that he has not been part of the system and does not have years of loyalty intricacies to either party, perhaps he can start to cut through some of the Gordian Knots we seem to have.

The hardest part is that there are so many emotions running through this issue of immigration that it may be next to impossible to have an intelligent, reasoned discussion and come up with a plan that makes sense. What we have now doesn’t make sense.

Guest worker status seems to make sense, except that we have no way of following up with them to make sure that they don’t simply stay and go underground - there literally are not enough immigration inspectors to even make a dent in the issue.

According to what I have heard, the wall has been authorized but not completed. It would at least reduce the flood to something closer to a trickle, so we could get some basis point. What we do after that is going to be where the emotions start flaring. And that does not make for solutions.

 

[Theo520]

well, Trump has said he is going to start doing that, and given that he has not been part of the system and does not have years of loyalty intricacies to either party, perhaps he can start to cut through some of the Gordian Knots we seem to have.

The hardest part is that there are so many emotions running through this issue of immigration that it may be next to impossible to have an intelligent, reasoned discussion and come up with a plan that makes sense. What we have now doesn’t make sense.

Guest worker status seems to make sense, except that we have no way of following up with them to make sure that they don’t simply stay and go underground - there literally are not enough immigration inspectors to even make a dent in the issue.

According to what I have heard, the wall has been authorized but not completed. It would at least reduce the flood to something closer to a trickle, so we could get some basis point. What we do after that is going to be where the emotions start flaring. And that does not make for solutions.

If we cracked down on illegal employers, most guest workers would return when expected. They take back big earnings that buy a good life back home, and they return next season.

 

[otjm]

If we cracked down on illegal employers, most guest workers would return when expected. They take back big earnings that buy a good life back home, and they return next season.

;That wouled be akin to being a one-armed paper hanger. It is not so hard to do with large employers; but the US has a tremendous base of small businesses, who may have one to maybe 50 employees. We don’t have enough immigration officers to begin to effectively scratch that one. Not that I disagree with your idea; but the implementation would be a nightmare.

 

[Theo520]

;That wouled be akin to being a one-armed paper hanger. It is not so hard to do with large employers; but the US has a tremendous base of small businesses, who may have one to maybe 50 employees. We don’t have enough immigration officers to begin to effectively scratch that one. Not that I disagree with your idea; but the implementation would be a nightmare.

You don’t have to visit each one, just send the signal that it won’t be tolerated. If caught, you will be fined. And we need to fix known problems with e-verify