Am I a Catholic?

[flyingfish]

I was baptized and confirmed Catholic, and for a time I was a faithful Catholic who extensively studied the faith and obeyed the teachings of the Church.

Since then, I have become very liberal. I no longer agree with the Church in many areas (like divorce, birth control, abortion, homosexuality, women priests, the existence of hell, and many others). I don’t even know if Jesus was God, or if God exists at all. However, sometimes I still pray.

My question is, am I still a Catholic? My understanding is that the Church considers me Catholic for life.

 

[MariaG]

Depends on what kind of answer you are looking for.

Through your baptism and confirmation, your soul has been indelibly marked by God and will always have those marks, forever.

You can formally resign from the Catholic Church, but that is just paperwork that does nothing about the marks on your soul from God.

 

[estesbob]

I was baptized and confirmed Catholic, and for a time I was a faithful Catholic who extensively studied the faith and obeyed the teachings of the Church.

Since then, I have become very liberal. I no longer agree with the Church in many areas (like divorce, birth control, abortion, homosexuality, women priests, the existence of hell, and many others). I don’t even know if Jesus was God, or if God exists at all. However, sometimes I still pray.

My question is, am I still a Catholic? My understanding is that the Church considers me Catholic for life.

Yes.

 

[twb1621]

I was baptized and confirmed Catholic, and for a time I was a faithful Catholic who extensively studied the faith and obeyed the teachings of the Church.

Since then, I have become very liberal. I no longer agree with the Church in many areas (like divorce, birth control, abortion, homosexuality, women priests, the existence of hell, and many others). I don’t even know if Jesus was God, or if God exists at all. However, sometimes I still pray.

My question is, am I still a Catholic? My understanding is that the Church considers me Catholic for life.

Yes, you are of the Body of Christ, His Bride, the Catholic Church. There is no more a way to remove yourself from being a Catholic than there is to remove yourself from your natural lineage. There are non-practicing Catholics but no such things as an “ex-Catholic”. As Christ said, for those who are given more, more is expected of them. Every Christian faith is founded on some of the principles taken from the Catholic Faith and the contents of every Bible, regardless of the “alterations” that may have been made to them, were taken from the True Bible, the first Catholic Bible to put it simply. Because non-Catholic Christian faiths require less, teach less and offer less, a person raised in the Catholic Church can not convert to a lesser standard in teachings to make it more confortable for themself to live by. A person who has never been taught Catholicism doesn’t know the difference. Your issues come from a lack of understanding and proper knowledge of the Catholic Faith and you are far from alone there. I pray you do not follow in my steps as I was exactly as you are for 25 years before seeking the truth and learning it was my own ignorance that caused my separation from the true faith and Church Jesus founded for our salvation. It was my own ignorance that I found shame in and great sorrow in when I realized what I left behind and all that I had lost in those years.

Ask questions of the subjects you have issues with and take each one at a time to resolve and better understand and learn your faith as it is. initiate a thread on this forum or contact someone through PM if you feel more comfortable about it but ask. That will guide you into a real relationship with Christ. When the door is open to Him, you will find a deep and intimate relationship with Him you never imagined.

 

[bpbasilphx]

It sounds like you’re a wandering sheep–but they are the ones the Shepherd makes a special effort to bring back.

Any particular reason why you disagree with these Catholic teachings you mentioned? Or is it just convenient for you to reject them?

 

[flyingfish]

Any particular reason why you disagree with these Catholic teachings you mentioned? Or is it just convenient for you to reject them?

It’s a bit of both, I definitely think many Catholic teachings in particular about divorce and sex go against human nature and make life unnecessarily painful for many people.

I think the doctrine of hell is very unjust, and that not even the worst of us deserve to be punished infinitely.

I am also a woman, and I have always felt that the language and structure of the Church is a man’s world. Even God and Jesus are male (or at least described in male terms). That has always made me felt left out.

But on a more fundamental level, I have trouble believing even in a deistic God. It’s very hard for me to believe that God actually revealed himself first to the Jewish tribe and then in the person of Jesus.

I don’t see myself ever thinking that the Old Testament is anything other than the thoughts of a warring desert tribe, and I don’t even think there is enough evidence to believe that Jesus was a real person as opposed to a legend like many other religious figures (say Hercules). And even if Jesus was a real person, there are too many problems in New Testament writings (like authorship, contradictions, the time they were written, gospels and writings not included in the official Bible) for me to be convinced that they accurately represent Jesus as he was.

I don’t believe that there is such a thing as a soul, and think that all the evidence overwhelmingly suggests that everything we are is generated by the brain, and once that’s gone, so are we.

I think it’s very hard or impossible to reconcile the idea of Original Sin with gradual evolution from previous, not-quite-human, organisms. I don’t think we could have originated from 2 first parents.

I would say I am pretty far gone, but I used to be a very faithful Catholic who prayed the rosary daily and so on, and still feel some connection with the faith for that reason.

 

[LoyalViews]

You must accept all the teachings of the Church to be fully Catholic. But remember, you were baptized which is a permanent mark on your soul, which means you are forever Catholic, bpbasilphx is right. If you are pro-choice, well then remember what Fr. Corapi says about them

You cannot be Pro - Choice and Catholic!

I will pray for you.

 

[mfj]

I heard this quote from some where;

I have not found one person who hates what Mother church teaches,
but thousands who hate what they think she does.

NO

 

[jpjd]

I heard this quote from some where;

I have not found one person who hates what Mother church teaches,
but thousands who hate what they think she does.

Bishop Fulton Sheen said that.

To the OP, did you know that Bishop Tobin wrote a letter to Congressman Patrick Kennedy addressing this very same topic? This link is to an article that contains the letter, and here is an excerpt from the letter that answers your question:

*"What does it mean, really, to be a Catholic? After all, being a Catholic has to mean something, right? *

*Well, in simple terms – and here I refer only to those more visible, structural elements of Church membership – being a Catholic means that you’re part of a faith community that possesses a clearly defined authority and doctrine, obligations and expectations. It means that you believe and accept the teachings of the Church, especially on essential matters of faith and morals; that you belong to a local Catholic community, a parish; that you attend Mass on Sundays and receive the sacraments regularly; that you support the Church, personally, publicly, spiritually and financially. *

*Congressman, I’m not sure whether or not you fulfill the basic requirements of being a Catholic, so let me ask: Do you accept the teachings of the Church on essential matters of faith and morals, including our stance on abortion? Do you belong to a local Catholic community, a parish? Do you attend Mass on Sundays and receive the sacraments regularly? Do you support the Church, personally, publicly, spiritually and financially? *

*In your letter you say that you “embrace your faith.” Terrific. But if you don’t fulfill the basic requirements of membership, what is it exactly that makes you a Catholic? Your baptism as an infant? Your family ties? Your cultural heritage? *

*Your letter also says that your faith “acknowledges the existence of an imperfect humanity.” Absolutely true. But in confronting your rejection of the Church’s teaching, we’re not dealing just with “an imperfect humanity” – as we do when we wrestle with sins such as anger, pride, greed, impurity or dishonesty. We all struggle with those things, and often fail. *

Your rejection of the Church’s teaching on abortion falls into a different category – it’s a deliberate and obstinate act of the will; a conscious decision that you’ve re-affirmed on many occasions. Sorry, you can’t chalk it up to an “imperfect humanity.” Your position is unacceptable to the Church and scandalous to many of our members. It absolutely diminishes your communion with the Church."

So, you may be Catholic by Baptism, but you are clearly in imperfect communion with the Church; in my own opinion your imperfect communion is so far removed that it doesn’t appear that you are in any communion at all other than by Baptism.

 

[Church_Militant]

I was baptized and confirmed Catholic, and for a time I was a faithful Catholic who extensively studied the faith and obeyed the teachings of the Church.

Since then, I have become very liberal. I no longer agree with the Church in many areas (like divorce, birth control, abortion, homosexuality, women priests, the existence of hell, and many others). I don’t even know if Jesus was God, or if God exists at all. However, sometimes I still pray.

My question is, am I still a Catholic? My understanding is that the Church considers me Catholic for life.

Yeah you’re still Catholic right up until you write your Bishop and tell him you wish to renounce your faith and even then the Church will always welcome you as one of her children who has strayed.

We’re all on a journey of faith though I’d say that you seem to have hung a wrong turn at Albuquerque or something. I did too…My Testimony

I’m here if you ever wish to talk privately and will hence forth keep you in all my prayers.
Pax tecum.

 

[flyingfish]

Yeah you’re still Catholic right up until you write your Bishop and tell him you wish to renounce your faith and even then the Church will always welcome you as one of her children who has strayed.

We’re all on a journey of faith though I’d say that you seem to have hung a wrong turn at Albuquerque or something. I did too…My Testimony

I’m here if you ever wish to talk privately and will hence forth keep you in all my prayers.
Pax tecum.

Thanks

 

[Church_Militant]

Thanks

 

[Cominghome89]

It’s a bit of both, I definitely think many Catholic teachings in particular about divorce and sex go against human nature and make life unnecessarily painful for many people.

The Church’s teaching, as well as natural human reasoning, would say that sex unites people in a bond that simply can’t just go away through a break-up or a divorce. This is what is against nature, the thought that humans can engage in sexual unity and then just move on to the next partner, as a simple way to gain some temporary pleasure. This is what makes life unnecessarily painful. As Scott Hahn said “Sex isn’t good, it isn’t great, it’s sacred, and it must be treated as such.” Those who don’t go along with the Church’s teachings on sex and divorce are not any less hurt by these abuses. It’s a natural fact, not a strict teaching. Sex in the wrong context IS painful, IS destructive.

I think the doctrine of hell is very unjust, and that not even the worst of us deserve to be punished infinitely.

Hell is literally the absence of God. If there is a God who loves us, who has revealed Himself to us, and we reject His love, that is, do not live a life of love, then we voluntarily separate ourselves from Him. Scott Hahn again has a wonderful explanation on the justice and necessity of hell in a collection of talks called “Why the Hell?” I very much suggest you read some of Scott Hahn’s work, he has a beautiful way of explaining the truth and practicality of many of the things you are having a problem with. He has done wonders for my skeptical mind.

I am also a woman, and I have always felt that the language and structure of the Church is a man’s world. Even God and Jesus are male (or at least described in male terms). That has always made me felt left out.

The one who was chosen to be stainless, to carry God Himself into this world, was a woman. Mary is most honored as first among all the saints. Christianity brought women a good deal of honor and respect at a time when they had none. Yes, Christ was a man, as are the priests who model Him, but this does not make them superior to women by any means. Remember, Christ came to serve the people, not dominate them. In the same way, priests are servants of the people, they do not dominate.

But on a more fundamental level, I have trouble believing even in a deistic God. It’s very hard for me to believe that God actually revealed himself first to the Jewish tribe and then in the person of Jesus.

I don’t see myself ever thinking that the Old Testament is anything other than the thoughts of a warring desert tribe, and I don’t even think there is enough evidence to believe that Jesus was a real person as opposed to a legend like many other religious figures (say Hercules). And even if Jesus was a real person, there are too many problems in New Testament writings (like authorship, contradictions, the time they were written, gospels and writings not included in the official Bible) for me to be convinced that they accurately represent Jesus as he was.

I don’t believe that there is such a thing as a soul, and think that all the evidence overwhelmingly suggests that everything we are is generated by the brain, and once that’s gone, so are we.

I think it’s very hard or impossible to reconcile the idea of Original Sin with gradual evolution from previous, not-quite-human, organisms. I don’t think we could have originated from 2 first parents.

I would say I am pretty far gone, but I used to be a very faithful Catholic who prayed the rosary daily and so on, and still feel some connection with the faith for that reason.

For these very fundamental (and understandable) issues, I would very much recommend “Mere Christianity” by C.S. Lewis. I can completely relate to these objections, I shared many of them not too long ago. There are logical and very true answers to EVERY ONE of them. You are not alone in these doubts, and you will not be the first one who God shows the answers to Just for the record, even the biggest skeptics could not seriously believe that Jesus was not a real, live miracle worker. We have historical accounts even from non-Christian writers (Flavius Josephus, a Jew, wrote of Jesus and His works, and he was a contemporary). The disciples who wrote these scriptures and the men who followed them were martyred to protect them, surely you don’t believe men would die to protect their own lie?

The truth is out there, and the truth is strong. May the Holy Spirit help you, may you be guided home. I too will be praying for you, my friend.

Peace, love and blessings,
Frank

 

[Philthy]

• You remain a Catholic in a spiritual sense. If you understood the full implications of that you would probably prefer that you were not Catholic in that sense.
• You have ceased to be Catholic, even Christian in any practical sense. You are probably best described as theist since you still pray (dont stop!)
• Your soul is in jeopardy because, as CM says, you “hung a wrong turn” and have rejected some fundamental tenets of the faith.
• You, like each and every one of us, must repent, pray for God’s blessing, be forgiven and resume the battle armed with God’s consolation.

Blessings!

 

[ATL_Granny]

It’s a bit of both…

I would say I am pretty far gone, but** I used to be a very faithful Catholic who prayed the rosary daily** and so on, and still feel some connection with the faith for that reason.

One thing that stands out to me is Satan’s role in this. You say you used to be a faithful Catholic who prayed the rosary. You were most definitely on Satan’s radar screen!

I had gone through a very trying time several years ago. It was difficult to maintain my faith life. Something said to me by a friend really hit home. She said that it would give Satan an eternal victory if I walked away from my faith. That made me hang in there and I can now once again say that I am proud to be Catholic and go to daily Mass like before.

We tend to see our own brain or our own “feelings” as being the paramount arbiter in determining what is true. Yet the very word “faith” means that we believe something even though we can not be assured it is so. Satan favorite way to tempt us is to stir up doubt. He causes us to fall time and time again by simply telling us that we’re smarter than …(fill in the blank.) Just look at Eve. He convinced her that God lied and that she would not die if she ate the apple. He sewed seeds of doubt and brought in the home run by telling Eve that, in reality, God was not only lying about death, but that He really didn’t want her to eat the apple because it would make her as smart as God.

Something happened back when you were praying your daily rosary that allowed you to nourish seeds of doubt planted by Satan. Sometimes it’s just a super-busy schedule that keeps us away from our spiritual growth. Sometimes it’s a life-changing event that tears us away.

No matter! You’re here now and I can’t help but rejoice that there is a question in your heart. Tell Satan he’s not going to win this soul and begin to pray for guidance from our Blessed Mother. She has brought more souls back to her Son than there are stars in the sky! Even if you can’t bring yourself to say the rosary at this point, make a promise to her that you want to know the truth and will give her the time she needs to answer them. Then spend ten or fifteen minutes a day talking to your heavenly Mother. Ask her the questions that are on your heart and then be prepared to have her draw you close.

You’ve taken the first step. That’s already put Satan in a bad mood for the day!

 

[flyingfish]

Hell is literally the absence of God. If there is a God who loves us, who has revealed Himself to us, and we reject His love, that is, do not live a life of love, then we voluntarily separate ourselves from Him. Scott Hahn again has a wonderful explanation on the justice and necessity of hell in a collection of talks called “Why the Hell?” I very much suggest you read some of Scott Hahn’s work, he has a beautiful way of explaining the truth and practicality of many of the things you are having a problem with. He has done wonders for my skeptical mind.

The problem I have with the idea of hell being the absence of God is that people in mortal sin here on earth also separate themselves from God, and yet many of them are quite happy. There is no reason for God to make hell any more painful than life here on earth. There is no reason to make hell permanent, doubtless many would prefer nonexistence to eternal pain.

The only kind of hell that would make sense to me is the hell C.S. Lewis described in The Great Divorce, where hell has all the pleasures and comforts of earth, and where people can and sometimes do change their minds and decide to go to heaven.

I agree some people have done horrible things and arguably deserve to be punished, but this can be a finite purgatory-like punishment, or an indefinite attempt at rehabilitation.

For these very fundamental (and understandable) issues, I would very much recommend “Mere Christianity” by C.S. Lewis.

I’ve read it and a number of other books by Lewis.

We have historical accounts even from non-Christian writers (Flavius Josephus, a Jew, wrote of Jesus and His works, and he was a contemporary). The disciples who wrote these scriptures and the men who followed them were martyred to protect them, surely you don’t believe men would die to protect their own lie?

The Testimonium Flavianum as far as I know is believed to be a later interpolation by many if not most scholars.

It’s not certain when the Gospels were written either. The most favorable dating puts them at least 40 years after Jesus’ death. They were not written by people who personally knew Jesus. The earliest New Testament writings are actually Paul’s letters, but he also was not an eye witness.

It just confuses me why God would not leave better evidence so that all could believe. He showed Thomas his wounds, why not show the rest of us doubters?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

He showed Thomas his wounds, why not show the rest of us doubters?

Don’t you remember the words of Christ Himself to St. Thomas? Let me refresh your memory: John 30: 27: Then he saith to Thomas: Put in thy finger hither, and see my hands; and bring hither thy hand, and put it into my side; and be not faithless, but believing. 28 Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God. 29 Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed. 30 Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book. 31 But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name.

Does this look like Jesus is going to ‘personally reassure us’ by giving us ‘proof’? Does it even look here as though He is ‘arranging’ for Scripture itself to do so?

No indeed. Who are the blessed? Those who **have faith. **Faith is the assurance of things **hoped for. **If one could have that kind of ‘proof’ that St. Thomas received, then one has not faith, but ‘certainty.’

What then is the purpose of the ‘signs’ of which John wrote in this gospel? They are given to us to allow us to **have faith. FAITH, not PROOF. **

You’ll not have ‘proof’ of Christ’s presence/existence in the sense of the type of proof given to St. Thomas, not until your dying day. But you can have faith–it is a free gift, here is the offering. Accept it, cherish it, and nourish it, blessed in that you did not see, but have still believed.

 

[Major_Tom]

Your issues come from a lack of understanding and proper knowledge of the Catholic Faith and you are far from alone there.

Thank you for sharing your experience. I’ve had (or am having) a similar one, myself.

With respect, I have a little difficulty with your statement. It suggests… actually, no, it states… that people like myself and the OP are simply ignorant. Put yourself in our shoes: that’s belittling. Consider this response to a question that you might have posted: “TWB- Your issues come from a lack of understanding and proper knowledge of other faiths and you are far from alone there”.

Again, I respect your experience, and acknowledge that you likely feel very strongly about your opinions… but then so do I. We’re at a bit of a stalemate then. I admit, I let my emotions get the better of me when I read some of these posts, and have to stifle my sarcasm, and am heartened that there are more balanced thoughtful posts than snarky and condescending.

Anyway, just wanted to share that…

 

[Major_Tom]

The problem I have with the idea of hell being the absence of God is that people in mortal sin here on earth also separate themselves from God, and yet many of them are quite happy. There is no reason for God to make hell any more painful than life here on earth. There is no reason to make hell permanent, doubtless many would prefer nonexistence to eternal pain.

The only kind of hell that would make sense to me is the hell C.S. Lewis described in The Great Divorce, where hell has all the pleasures and comforts of earth, and where people can and sometimes do change their minds and decide to go to heaven.

I agree some people have done horrible things and arguably deserve to be punished, but this can be a finite purgatory-like punishment, or an indefinite attempt at rehabilitation.

Interesting. The temporal quality of hell has also bothered me. That is, that it is permanent. So an eternity of suffering is the necessary result from the unfortunate experiences of a rebellious teenager who died in mortal sin? Over the course of his/her human life, he would have had the possibility of growing and learning from his mistake. Why not the same opportunity for his soul?

I agree that it makes much more sense to allow for the idea that a soul should have an opportunity to learn from experience. Why does it have to be an eternal state, even for a wayward soul? I’m not sure, but it seems to me that Catholic teaching doesn’t allow for this possibility. If anyone has contrary knowledge, I’d like to be made aware of it. I have trouble believing that a God, who supposedly died for us, and loves us unconditionally, would mandate an eternal state of hell.

 

[twb1621]

Thank you for sharing your experience. I’ve had (or am having) a similar one, myself.

With respect, I have a little difficulty with your statement. It suggests… actually, no, it states… that people like myself and the OP are simply ignorant. Put yourself in our shoes: that’s belittling. Consider this response to a question that you might have posted: “TWB- Your issues come from a lack of understanding and proper knowledge of other faiths and you are far from alone there”.

Again, I respect your experience, and acknowledge that you likely feel very strongly about your opinions… but then so do I. We’re at a bit of a stalemate then. I admit, I let my emotions get the better of me when I read some of these posts, and have to stifle my sarcasm, and am heartened that there are more balanced thoughtful posts than snarky and condescending.

Anyway, just wanted to share that…

Thank you MT, for your response. Understand first of all that I did include myself when I referred to those who were or are ignorant to their faith. Therefore I most certainly did put myself in the shoes of those I refer to and in fact walked in them for many years. When I realized all that I was wrong about in regard to my criticisms of the Catholic Faith I was utterly ashamed of myself and sorrowful for my lost years separated from her. I am not a person who was in the past considered to be weak by any means. If anything, I was considered the means to a solution to many peoples problems with the authority and ability to do what needed to be done as a professional investigator and later researcher (righteously I believed) and the EGO that went with it.

Now, please understand I did not refer to anyone being ignorant as in an insult, rather only ignorant in the sense of unknowing to the faith and scripture and what we have been given and what is expected of us. The ignorance is to the beauty of the love of Christ in what He truly suffered for our salvation and acceptance into heaven. It is in the ease of accepting and following His teachings once deeply in a relationship with Him.

When you are attracted to someone, you cannot enter into an intimate relationship with them if you never learn to know them. That is human nature and required to establish any meaningful relationship. How many people actually have an intimate relationship with Christ and how many struggle with just trying to know or understand Him even though they pronounce themselves as Christian. It’s not easy unless you sincerely seek Him. The cause of this ignorance can be any number of reasons. For instance, believing as a young adult on the completion of Catholic education that over 12 years or so we have learned all there is about our faith and God, never or rarely looking into the Bible let alone taking an honest interest in what it tells us and disbelieving the teachings of the Church because we don’t see them to be “fare” or considering them “unreasonable”. Part of our ignorance is of our own responsibility and other factors may be due to poor teaching in the first place which has been acknowledged by the Church during the last 50 years.

On my conversion in March 2003 on a dirt road on West Virginia, I was “inspired” to seek the truth and find the true faith of Christ thinking of any except the Catholic Church. I left my worldly life and profession of 25 years behind and with those 25 years experience devoted my life to the research of Christianity. I will remain devoted and in a relationship with our Lord; one I never believed possible. It is direction I try to offer to those who lack true knowledge of their faith and subsequently separate themselves from the Bride of Christ and it is because of my experiences (more than I care to elaborate on) that I offer myself to our Lord as the lowliest of servants. I do not intentionally try to insult anyone however I am not concerned with being politically correct when it comes to the teachings of our Savior… nor was He though.