Am I allowed to be a Biblical Catholic?

[johndoe100]

A conflict came up during our Catholic Charismatic Prayer meeting when I mentioned, “Impartation of the Spirit and Laying on of hands.” The leader arbitrarily said, “We don’t believe that!” I assume that he was talking for the Church?

I was already age 21 when Vatican II hit, and then it took a while to be fully operational. I remember the Church saying that we could enjoy our new freedom of reading our Bibles, but we were to apply it to our own life.

What is the modern teaching? Should I skip over those Bible verses that the Church is not using? Am I in error to follow those Bible verses?

 

[loozcannon]

I’m not an expert by any means. I can tell you that I’m in RCIA from an already christian back ground. My parish firmly believes in laying on hands and even hold regular prayers for people, and if the person that has the prayer request wants, they will lay hands on them while they pray.

As far as the Bible goes, I do believe everything the Church teaches springs from the Bible and Tradition.

God bless you!

 

[CountrySteve]

umm i just wanted to point out that the Catholic Church follows every thing the Bible says, you must be misinturpting the Bible, can you post the verses your getting this from? God bless

 

[Cath4life]

Yes… you should be allowed!!!

The best bible resource that I own is the Navarre Bible and it includes commentary of different doctors of the church, encyclicals and saints. You don’t need to worry about how scripture needs to be read. It is explained to you…

“Ignorance of Scriptures is ignorance of God” - St Jerome

catholiccompany.com/navarre-bible-new-testament-complete-set-p1001641/

 

[Todd_Easton]

…Impartation of the Spirit and Laying on of hands…

The Catholic Church understands Scriptural references to the laying on of hands to impart the Spirit to refer to the sacrament of Confirmation:

“From that time [Pentecost] on, the apostles, in fulfillment of Christ’s will, imparted to the newly baptized by the laying on of hands the gift of the Spirit that completes the grace of Baptism. For this reason in the Letter to the Hebrews the doctrine concerning Baptism and the laying on of hands is listed among the first elements of Christian instruction. The imposition of hands is rightly recognized by Catholic tradition as the origin of the sacrament of Confirmation, which in a certain way perpetuates the grace of Pentecost in the Church.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1288)

 

[Lancer]

A conflict came up during our Catholic Charismatic Prayer meeting when I mentioned, “Impartation of the Spirit and Laying on of hands.” The leader arbitrarily said, “We don’t believe that!” I assume that he was talking for the Church?

I was already age 21 when Vatican II hit, and then it took a while to be fully operational. I remember the Church saying that we could enjoy our new freedom of reading our Bibles, but we were to apply it to our own life.*** [Not accurate…we could always read the bible…it was/is a Canonical Right]***

What is the modern teaching? Should I skip over those Bible verses that the Church is not using? Am I in error to follow those Bible verses?

God bless him/her who said this to you…but – in football lingo – they may be on the “field” [of Catholic Christian living]…running up and down the field with great energy and enthusiasm…playing their [Catholic] hearts out…but sadly…unfortunately…they have not see the “football since the kickoff”… or more bluntly…they know not what they say!

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION
**CHAPTER ONE
THE SACRAMENTS OF CHRISTIAN INITIATION
**
ARTICLE 2
THE SACRAMENT OF CONFIRMATION

1288 "From that time on the apostles**, in fulfillment of Christ’s will, imparted to the newly baptized by the laying on of hands the gift of the Spirit** that completes the grace of Baptism. For this reason in the Letter to the Hebrews the doctrine concerning Baptism and the laying on of hands is listed among the first elements of Christian instruction. The imposition of hands is rightly recognized by the Catholic tradition as the origin of the sacrament of Confirmation, which in a certain way perpetuates the grace of Pentecost in the Church."99

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION

**CHAPTER FOUR
OTHER LITURGICAL CELEBRATIONS

ARTICLE 1
SACRAMENTALS**

1667 "Holy Mother Church has, moreover, instituted** sacramentals. These are sacred signs which bear a resemblance to the sacraments. They signify effects, particularly of a spiritual nature, which are obtained through the intercession of the Church.** By them men are disposed to receive the chief effect of the sacraments, and various occasions in life are rendered holy."173

The characteristics of sacramentals

1668 Sacramentals are instituted for the sanctification of certain ministries of the Church, certain states of life, a great variety of circumstances in Christian life, and the use of many things helpful to man. In accordance with bishops’ pastoral decisions, they can also respond to the needs, culture, and special history of the Christian people of a particular region or time. They always include a prayer, often accompanied by a specific sign, such as the laying on of hands, the sign of the cross, or the sprinkling of holy water (which recalls Baptism).

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION

CHAPTER TWO
GOD COMES TO MEET MAN

ARTICLE 3
SACRED SCRIPTURE

**V. SACRED SCRIPTURE IN THE LIFE OF THE CHURCH
**
131 "And such is the force and power of the Word of God that it can serve the Church as her support and vigor, and the children of the Church as strength for their faith, food for the soul, and a pure and lasting fount of spiritual life."109 Hence "access to Sacred Scripture ought to be open wide to the Christian faithful."110

132 "Therefore, the study of the sacred page should be the very soul of sacred theology. The ministry of the Word, too - pastoral preaching, catechetics and all forms of Christian instruction, among which the liturgical homily should hold pride of place - is healthily nourished and thrives in holiness through the Word of Scripture."111

**133 ****The Church "forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful. . . to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.**112

The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.78

112 1. Be especially attentive “to the content and unity of the whole Scripture”. Different as the books which compose it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God’s plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.79
The phrase “heart of Christ” can refer to Sacred Scripture, which makes known his heart, closed before the Passion, as the Scripture was obscure. But the Scripture has been opened since the Passion; since those who from then on have understood it, consider and discern in what way the prophecies must be interpreted.80

113 2.** Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church”. According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"**81).

114 3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.82 By “analogy of faith” we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.

Pax Christi

 

[savedwretch]

If the Catholic Church follows everything the bible says then why do they call priests “father”, and worse yet the pope “holy father”? This is clearly what our Lord Jesus Christ condemns when referring to the Pharisees and the scribes in Matthew 23:9, because they were elevating themselves above others in a spiritual sense with their titles of teacher and master. It has nothing to do with calling your father and mother accordingly, but rather someone elevating himself spiritually above others. Even the apostle Paul called himself the chief of sinners in 1 Timothy 1:15. Priests and the pope are sinners in need of God’s forgiveness through faith in Jesus just like everyone else. Romans 6:23 says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It doesn’t say except for priests and popes.

 

[Andre1000]

If the Catholic Church follows everything the bible says then why do they call priests “father”, and worse yet the pope “holy father”? This is clearly what our Lord Jesus Christ condemns when referring to the Pharisees and the scribes in Matthew 23:9, because they were elevating themselves above others in a spiritual sense with their titles of teacher and master. ** It has nothing to do with calling your father and mother accordingly, but rather someone elevating himself spiritually above others.** Even the apostle Paul called himself the chief of sinners in 1 Timothy 1:15. Priests and the pope are sinners in need of God’s forgiveness through faith in Jesus just like everyone else. Romans 6:23 says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It doesn’t say except for priests and popes.

Why does it has nothing to do with your father but with authority? You are assuming too many things! Actually Matthew 23:9 means you should not make anyone a God.

 

[SonCatcher]

A conflict came up during our Catholic Charismatic Prayer meeting when I mentioned, “Impartation of the Spirit and Laying on of hands.” The leader arbitrarily said, “We don’t believe that!” I assume that he was talking for the Church?

I was already age 21 when Vatican II hit, and then it took a while to be fully operational. I remember the Church saying that we could enjoy our new freedom of reading our Bibles, but we were to apply it to our own life.

What is the modern teaching? Should I skip over those Bible verses that the Church is not using? Am I in error to follow those Bible verses?

As Catholics, we do not ever gloss over or minimize passages. We merely teach them according to their proper context.

In this case, the “Impartation of the Spirit and Laying on of hands” concern the Sacrament of Holy Orders (the “Impartation of the Spirit” alone can refer to Confirmation but “Laying on of hands” refers to ordination).

 

[SonCatcher]

If the Catholic Church follows everything the bible says then why do they call priests “father”, and worse yet the pope “holy father”? This is clearly what our Lord Jesus Christ condemns when referring to the Pharisees and the scribes in Matthew 23:9, because they were elevating themselves above others in a spiritual sense with their titles of teacher and master. It has nothing to do with calling your father and mother accordingly, but rather someone elevating himself spiritually above others. Even the apostle Paul called himself the chief of sinners in 1 Timothy 1:15. Priests and the pope are sinners in need of God’s forgiveness through faith in Jesus just like everyone else. Romans 6:23 says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It doesn’t say except for priests and popes.

Off topic. start your own thread.

 

[tomarin]

A conflict came up during our Catholic Charismatic Prayer meeting when I mentioned, “Impartation of the Spirit and Laying on of hands.” The leader arbitrarily said, “We don’t believe that!” I assume that he was talking for the Church?

I was already age 21 when Vatican II hit, and then it took a while to be fully operational. I remember the Church saying that we could enjoy our new freedom of reading our Bibles, but we were to apply it to our own life.

What is the modern teaching? Should I skip over those Bible verses that the Church is not using? Am I in error to follow those Bible verses?

Your error is in assuming that what the Church teaches is in conflict with Biblical truth.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

To the OP:

Absolutely everything in the bible is true. Catholics always could (and always should have, at least when they were literate and bibles were available) read the bible for themselves.

There are no verses we “don’t use”.

What Catholics cannot do is consider themselves the highest authority for biblical interpretation. That is one of the reasons why Christ founded a Church instead of leaving us a book and saying good luck, so that we wouldn’t fall into squabbling about what a verse means and split into innumerable denominations (which is exactly what happens with the sola scriptura crows)

To Saved Wretch:
That verse is, to use your terminology, “clearly” hyperbole. It’s along the same lines of saying “don’t try to remove a speck of dust from your brother’s eye while you have a big ol’ 2x4 coming out of your own”. Clearly that verse is an admonition against hypocrisy rather than instructions on eye cleaning, and just as clearly the call no man father passage is an admonition against giving humans more credit than is appropriate rather than literally prohibiting calling a man “father.” Besides, if we were to be literal about it, then you’d have to be completely literal about it. The don’t refer to any spiritual leader as father interpretation is purely your interpretation, that is not what the verse says.

In any case, you seem to think that we think that our spiritual leaders are perfect and sinless. This would in fact be violating the instruction in that verse - if we thought it were true. But we don’t. Even the Pope must go to confession, lest he die in mortal sin and go to Hell.

 

[tabycat]

Off topic. start your own thread.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

A conflict came up during our Catholic Charismatic Prayer meeting when I mentioned, “Impartation of the Spirit and Laying on of hands.” The leader arbitrarily said, “We don’t believe that!” I assume that he was talking for the Church?

I was already age 21 when Vatican II hit, and then it took a while to be fully operational. I remember the Church saying that we could enjoy our new freedom of reading our Bibles, but we were to apply it to our own life.

What is the modern teaching? Should I skip over those Bible verses that the Church is not using? Am I in error to follow those Bible verses?

I would go back to the leader and ask why he thinks we shouldn’t follow Jesus’ example. (Mark 6:5; Luke 4:40; 13:13) Or Paul’s for that matter (Acts 28:8). Jesus said of His believers “they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well” (Mark 16:18). This is not just the priests but all believers. Clearly there are Sacramental duties that only a priest can perform. We are not talking about that. We are talking about charisms that are granted by God to a believer. The Scripture (1 Cor 12:4-11) tells us that the Holy Spirit will give varies gifts to whom He will.

From the CCC:

1508 The Holy Spirit gives to some a special charism of healing so as to make manifest the power of the grace of the risen Lord

also

800 Charisms are to be accepted with gratitude by the person who receives them and by all members of the Church as well. They are a wonderfully rich grace for the apostolic vitality and for the holiness of the entire Body of Christ, provided they really are genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit and are used in full conformity with authentic promptings of this same Spirit, that is, in keeping with charity, the true measure of all charisms.

Regarding the Charismatic Movement there have been many pastoral letters of support from various popes and bishops, particularly Blessed John Paul II who said "“The Catholic Charismatic Renewal has helped many Christians to rediscover the presence and power of the Holy Spirit… and this rediscovery has awakened in them a faith in Christ filled with joy.” 1998 Pope Benedict while he was still Cardinal Ratzinger said "…and the Charismatic Renewal …I think this is a sign of the Springtime and of the presence of the Holy Spirit, today will give new charisms and so on. This is for me really a great hope that not with organization from authorities, but really it is the force of the Holy Spirit present in the people.”

Still, caution must be used in charismatic groups because people can get off track. Discernment and good spiritual direction are necessary. There are those at CAF that are very opposed to the Charismatic movement but that is not in line with what I have seen the Church saying. Don’t worry about the Church and the Bible being at odds in any matter. The Church fully understands the Scriptures IN CONTEXT where many (as evidenced frequently in the forums) do not.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

The Catholic Church WROTE the bible–TEACHES the bible- WORSHIPS from the bible–LOVES the bible.

The Catholic Church in actuality is the born again–miracle–bible church!

To KNOW Christ one must study and love it!

If anyone has never gone to a Mass I say go and check it out yourself–from beginning to end all you will hear is BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE and God the Father–God the Son–and God the Holy Spirit.

The whole LITURGY–the celebration of Jesus’ Body and Blood is TOTAL BIBLE!

Real Catholics LOVE the bible!

 

[mackbrislawn]

A conflict came up during our Catholic Charismatic Prayer meeting when I mentioned, “Impartation of the Spirit and Laying on of hands.” The leader arbitrarily said, “We don’t believe that!” I assume that he was talking for the Church?

I was already age 21 when Vatican II hit, and then it took a while to be fully operational. I remember the Church saying that we could enjoy our new freedom of reading our Bibles, but we were to apply it to our own life.
What is the modern teaching? Should I skip over those Bible verses that the Church is not using? Am I in error to follow those Bible verses?

Of course even before Vatican II Catholics could read their bibles. I have a Confranternity edition copyrighted 1944 which has a quotation from the pope in 1923 about the value of reading scripture.

The Catholic idea of reading scripture is for our own lives, like you say. Because when we interpret it doctrinally, we must remember we are interpreting it for the whole world, not just ourselves. That’s why Protestants form new churches when they read the bible.

 

[tabycat]

The Catholic Church WROTE the bible–TEACHES the bible- WORSHIPS from the bible–LOVES the bible.

The Catholic Church in actuality is the born again–miracle–bible church!

To KNOW Christ one must study and love it!

If anyone has never gone to a Mass I say go and check it out yourself–from beginning to end all you will hear is BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE and God the Father–God the Son–and God the Holy Spirit.

The whole LITURGY–the celebration of Jesus’ Body and Blood is TOTAL BIBLE!

Real Catholics LOVE the bible!

loozcannon, I can’t think of any reason (let alone a good reason) not to be a Biblical Catholic.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

The Catholic Church WROTE the bible–TEACHES the bible- WORSHIPS from the bible–LOVES the bible.

The Catholic Church in actuality is the born again–miracle–bible church!

To KNOW Christ one must study and love it!

If anyone has never gone to a Mass I say go and check it out yourself–from beginning to end all you will hear is BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE and God the Father–God the Son–and God the Holy Spirit.

The whole LITURGY–the celebration of Jesus’ Body and Blood is TOTAL BIBLE!

Real Catholics LOVE the bible!

I understand and agree with most of what you wrote, but even the Church doesn’t claim to have written the Bible. The entire Old Testament was written before the Church was established. The New Testament, however, is a collection of gospel/letters written for the fledgling Church which may be what you were getting at. Very importantly, the Church canonized the Bible under her authority and without canonization we wouldn’t have known which books and letters were divinely inspired and which ones weren’t. But bravo to you for you passionate response about our love for the Scriptures, I have been in a Bible study for the last seven years and it has changed my life. I have certainly come to know the Lord more intimately in reading the Scriptures, and like you, I have also come to understand just how biblical is the Mass and the Church. I feel sad for those who read the Scriptures without the guidance of the Church that Christ founded.

From the CCC:

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. “The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.”
“For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.”

and

136 God is the author of Sacred Scripture because he inspired its human authors; he acts in them and by means of them. He thus gives assurance that their writings teach without error his saving truth (cf. DV 11).

 

[johndoe100]

Well, today (Friday) I was at another Catholic Charismatic Prayer Meeting in another town, and we practiced Laying on of hands and the Impartation of the Holy Spirit with a Catholic Priest sitting in with us. The moment just before we began I asked if this will be Imparting and the leader said, “yes”.

We were asked to lay our hand on the person next to us on the left side, and later we laid our hand on the person on the right side. We were sitting at a long conference table, so we formed a chain where the anointing was passed one to the other.

The Bible verse that comes to mind is (Romans 1:11,12) where Paul said, "For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. (Romans 1:11, 12 KJV)

 

[Todd_Easton]

Well, today (Friday) I was at another Catholic Charismatic Prayer Meeting in another town, and we practiced Laying on of hands and the Impartation of the Holy Spirit with a Catholic Priest sitting in with us. The moment just before we began I asked if this will be Imparting and the leader said, “yes”.

For a Catholic, I think, it would better to regard the laying on of hands at a Charismatic prayer meeting as a way of opening some gifts of the Spirit that were previously imparted at Baptism and Confirmation but had until then been unopened, rather than as a new imparting of the Spirit. Otherwise, one might come to the erroneous conclusion that the Church’s sacraments and hierarchy are somehow unnecessary.