Am i asking too much?

[aggiecatholic05]

ok.

the argument was in the kitchen so not really private. we came down with a fairly full car, throw in some presents and it was jam packed to the point of being dangerous(i had very little rear visability). maybe 30 minutes before we were leaving they tried to give us a hand me down stroller(we have 2new ones and olny 1 kid) we don need it and didnt have room. i told my wife the only we wae were taking it was if she picked what stuff she wanted to leave behind until our next trip, this lead to the fight.

no i didnt put her down or call her names. i just told her she had to decide what she left behind, and she wanted it all to go. really our arguments are very civil, we my yeall but its almost creepy how nice we keep it. i can only speak for myself but its not een forced thats just what comes out.

my fil called me out right after i put the last load in the car. despite wanting to call the cops, or drop him to the ground(and call it self defense-i was threatened after all) i said nothing picked up my daughter and walked out-since that was the plan anyways.

the only way her mother could know what happened was if he told her so i doubt she got the truth, not that she’d believe it.

maybe i didnt make it clear here, but when i said i wanted an apology i made it known that anything that wasnt sincere would be dismissed.

while i’d like her to know her grandparents, i refuse to put my daughter in that environment if nothing changes. if she holds it against me so be it at least i’ll have kept her safe.

now 2 unrelateds

1. happy new year
2. orville redenbacher’s Natural tastes exactly like trix breakfast ceral

 

[KCtheMommy]

ok.

the argument was in the kitchen so not really private. we came down with a fairly full car, throw in some presents and it was jam packed to the point of being dangerous(i had very little rear visability). maybe 30 minutes before we were leaving they tried to give us a hand me down stroller(we have 2new ones and olny 1 kid) we don need it and didnt have room. i told my wife the only we wae were taking it was if she picked what stuff she wanted to leave behind until our next trip, this lead to the fight.

no i didnt put her down or call her names. i just told her she had to decide what she left behind, and she wanted it all to go. really our arguments are very civil, we my yeall but its almost creepy how nice we keep it. i can only speak for myself but its not een forced thats just what comes out.

my fil called me out right after i put the last load in the car. despite wanting to call the cops, or drop him to the ground(and call it self defense-i was threatened after all) i said nothing picked up my daughter and walked out-since that was the plan anyways.

the only way her mother could know what happened was if he told her so i doubt she got the truth, not that she’d believe it.

maybe i didnt make it clear here, but when i said i wanted an apology i made it known that anything that wasnt sincere would be dismissed.

while i’d like her to know her grandparents, i refuse to put my daughter in that environment if nothing changes. if she holds it against me so be it at least i’ll have kept her safe.

now 2 unrelateds

1. happy new year
2. orville redenbacher’s Natural tastes exactly like trix breakfast ceral

LOL about the popcorn!

OK OK
So yeah alright. That was over the top. But let me play your wife’s advocate for a moment. She didn’t want to hurt their fee-fee’s by not accepting the gift. Him being drunk took it not only personally that you were making your wife make a choice, but refusing his very “generous gift.”

So, yeah, don’t expect an apology, just move on. Let it go. This is not worth it. Furthermore, you should ask them to come visit you both at YOUR house and have the fine ability to throw them out when they act like fools.

That’s the way I do it.

 

[cheeto1]

You were wise to give yourself good visibility driving.
I wish you never had to go there ever again. If it was me, I’d
stay away forever, but it would be out of fear. Fear of the
confrontations, fear of a bad environment for my daughter,
fear of my wife not loving me any more on account of him,
fear that the whole family would hate me as I tried unsuccessfully to be assertive with that father in law. Fear that everything I
hold dear would fall apart before my eyes and there would be
nothing I could do about it. I would stay away until I heard he
had changed. Just because people are parents, doesn’t mean
they have your best interests at heart.

I don’t think you sound like a fearful person. You sound strong,
brave, and loving. I think you are brave enough to let it go for now. I think you know your wife loves you.

 

[chevalier]

Well, Aggie, I sympathise with your situation and your point with this new info… it reminds me of myself. And precisely for this reason there’s something we need to take into consideration: People don’t like the calm, commanding voice making them make choices. They feel terrorised and they feel you’re trying to force your authority on them. Perhaps your wife was a bit unreasonable and wanted too much, perhaps she just wanted you and her to make some effort and try and fit everything in the car rather than either leaving something behind or obstructing your point of view as a driver. I hate when people don’t accept logic or want to do something one can clearly see cannot be done, let alone if they blame me for something in the process. And yes, I present them with a swift choice. At that point they hate my cruelty and yeah, making them choose in a very cold way when they are being emotional is cruel. If someone tried that on me, I’d probably tell him to shove it. Especially if not everything were all right with his logic. And when we make people choose, we don’t always know if there are only two options indeed. Especially if we are rather worked up ourselves. Chances are you were being cold and emotionally distant when she didn’t want to leave any of the gifts behind and her father got worked up seeing her suffering as a result of your attitude. For a moment think how you would feel if someone talked like that to your daughter. Would everything be okay or would you get worked up too? Obviously, that doesn’t justify threats of violence, but I hope you get my point.

 

[dianaballein]

Well, Aggie, I sympathise with your situation and your point with this new info… it reminds me of myself. And precisely for this reason there’s something we need to take into consideration: People don’t like the calm, commanding voice making them make choices. They feel terrorised and they feel you’re trying to force your authority on them. Perhaps your wife was a bit unreasonable and wanted too much, perhaps she just wanted you and her to make some effort and try and fit everything in the car rather than either leaving something behind or obstructing your point of view as a driver. I hate when people don’t accept logic or want to do something one can clearly see cannot be done, let alone if they blame me for something in the process. And yes, I present them with a swift choice. At that point they hate my cruelty and yeah, making them choose in a very cold way when they are being emotional is cruel. If someone tried that on me, I’d probably tell him to shove it. Especially if not everything were all right with his logic. And when we make people choose, we don’t always know if there are only two options indeed. Especially if we are rather worked up ourselves. Chances are you were being cold and emotionally distant when she didn’t want to leave any of the gifts behind and her father got worked up seeing her suffering as a result of your attitude. For a moment think how you would feel if someone talked like that to your daughter. Would everything be okay or would you get worked up too? Obviously, that doesn’t justify threats of violence, but I hope you get my point.

There is no reasoning with a drunk, and it is a genuine concern that your wife cares more about what her father thinks than her husband.

 

[Lifeisamazing]

I don’t blame you for wanting to cease contact with FIL! You are in the right, but that doesn’t mean anything when you are dealing with an alcoholic. Be satisfied that you are right and reasonable (Love it, roll around it, lick it and smoke it) then move on to what you will do when a situation arises next time.

There are many “right” ways to handle things. Demanding or expecting a sincere apology from the guy - well you might as well just tell your wife she won’t be seeing her family again. Even though it sounds like she knows her dad is a mess, the reality of that ultimatum is probably extremely distressing to her. You are putting her in an unfair position. Her feelings matter too.

Al-anon can help you know how to deal with this man. It sounds as if your wife and her family could really benefit from this program as well as you. It may even help your wife cut ties with him to a degree. Other suggestions that you should calmly state your case to him- again- I feel that is expecting too much from an unstable and unreasonable man. That will likely come to blows again. I understand consulting Al-anon may sound like work for a relationship you don’t want anyway , but you should do it for your wife .

Happy New Year!

 

[Norseman82]

There is no reasoning with a drunk, and it is a genuine concern that your wife cares more about what her father thinks than her husband.

In those few words, you’ve hit the nail right on the head.

 

[chevalier]

There is no reasoning with a drunk, and it is a genuine concern that your wife cares more about what her father thinks than her husband.

Both true, but doesn’t mean the drunk is by definition wrong on whatever he says or feels or that all his reactions are by definition unreasonable and unreliable. There’s not enough reason to conclude that the wife is paying more attention to her father than her husband, while there are some pointers that the wife may have not been getting the best treatment, especially in the light of her heavy migraines which require medication and her possible depression. People in that state need very special consideration and all help they can get, as well as a mild treatment from their immediate family, not being forced into rational and legalistic patterns of behaviour.

For the record, it still seems that most probably, the mother-in-law is wrong since I can hardly see room for the OP to owe apology for anything to the father-in-law. The opposite seems true. This doesn’t mean the wife was treated the way she should be or that the father-in-law didn’t see that and react to it.

In those few words, you’ve hit the nail right on the head.

Not so easy. Seen the other topic by the OP? The wife doesn’t strike me as the one more inclined of the two to value his or her family’s opinion before the spouse’s or one’s own. This I would like to direct to the Opening Poster too - no talking behind your back.

 

[Leonius]

Your wife is completely in the wrong, now that she is married her loyalties should lie with you. The Scriptures and the teachings of the Catholic Church concerning marriage are clear on this, that coupled with the fact that the father is clearly a degenerate bum and a bully should be enough for anyone.

She was also in the wrong for not accepting your judgement about the car and instead turning it into a argument, Scriptures and the Church are clear about the authority of the husband to.

Personally you were justified in beating the hell out of him in my opinion. I would never have anything to do with him ever again even if he apologised his word can’t be trusted and so would mean nothing(that was your only mistake asking for an apology as if his opinion was worth anything), plus he is setting a terrible example to any children present and frankly is a threat to your marriage by the sounds of things. You were the outsider in this situation that is clear and your wife should be ashamed of herself for making you so.

 

[Eddie_D]

we went all went well. they morning we were leaving my wife and i got into an argument, a heated one at that. it lasted maybe 5 minutes and that includes the time it took us to cool down apologize and be done with it.

Let this be a lesson to you: confine your arguments with your wife to a private location. I’m not an alcoholic but I have a daughter. If my son-in-law had so little respect for her or her parents that he could not restrain himself from a heated argument with her in front of my wife and me, I’d be on his case, too. In this case, your father-in-law’s alcoholism has little to do with it. You behaved badly: apologize.

 

[Nordar]

Hi, my name is Leslie K. and I am an alcoholic.

One of the toughest things I ever had to face was the damage I did to my family during the days I was drinking and drugging. It took years for my family to forgive me (verbally, it took all of five seconds but in reality I was six years sober for any of them were able to relax around me) and it took even longer for me to come to terms with the havoc I raised.

Your wife and her family have been horribly damaged by the alcoholic they love. You are not only dealing with a sick man, you are dealing with a very sick family. It is going to take a man of heroic virtue to be able to deal with the situation with love, tolerance and patience - none of which, by the way, means you have to put up with verbal abuse and the threat of physical violence.

You need, in my opinion, to make it very clear to your wife that you love and respect her father but you will not subject her or your child to this type of behavior. If you are not on the same page, you need to get on the same page. She will try and convince you that you are wrong to want to put loving distance between your family and the craziness that is alcoholism. It is because this is how she survived. She knows no other way.

May I suggest you get some literature from Al-Anon, perhaps even your own copy of the Big Book of AA and read up a bit on the disease and the coping strategies of those who have learned to live healthfully with someone who is a practicing alcoholic? You will be happy to discover the incredible role members of the Catholic Church played in the early days of the 12 step recovery movement. From Jesuit priests to Augustinian nuns, my life today is good because of the prayers and actions of good, solid, non-alcoholic people - none of which allowed people like me to get away with bad behavior.

I can understand your mother-in-law too. But if I were you, I would talk directly to the alcoholic. I would say (as was said to me), “I appreciate that you love your daughter, my wife. I know you want to be a good father and grandfather. I also want to be a good father and a good husband. I don’t want us to be angry with each other. I am not asking you to do anything at all. However, I am telling you that my first priority is to protect my wife and my children and I cannot knowingly put them in any danger. As much as I love you, when you are drinking you are dangerous.”

When someone had the nerve to tell me that I could do whatever I wanted, but that they were going to do whatever they had to do to keep themselves safe from me…well! That was one of the small pushes I needed to get me on the road to recovery.

And last May, I celebrated 16 years of continous sobriety.

You are in my prayers.

Excellent post!

 

[Leonius]

Let this be a lesson to you: confine your arguments with your wife to a private location. I’m not an alcoholic but I have a daughter. If my son-in-law had so little respect for her or her parents that he could not restrain himself from a heated argument with her in front of my wife and me, I’d be on his case, too. In this case, your father-in-law’s alcoholism has little to do with it. You behaved badly: apologize.

And then you would be in the wrong, it would be none of your business and you would have no right to interfere. Remember what happens at a marriage? You give your daughter away. Bring your daughter up to respect her husband like she should and there won’t be any heated arguments.

 

[Eddie_D]

And then you would be in the wrong, it would be none of your business and you would have no right to interfere. Remember what happens at a marriage? You give your daughter away. Bring your daughter up to respect her husband like she should and there won’t be any heated arguments.

I also have a right not to have them quarrel in my home. And husbands should respect their wives, too.

 

[Leonius]

I also have a right not to have them quarrel in my home. And husbands should respect their wives, too.

Yes you are the master of your home, but it takes two to have an argument and yet you were only going to tell of the husband presumably simply because hes not a blood relative.

All you would achieve would be to turn a little argument into a one that could last a lifetime. Look at this thread for example the intitial argument was about overloading the car, that would have been forgotten the minute they got home. Now because the father got involved it is now about the father and that can last as long as the father is stil alive and so is an issue.

On top of that you would undermine one of the pillars of your daughters marriage, that the husband is the head. And for what? So you could show your daughter that you are a better man than her husband?

Husbands should respect their wives to no argument from me there, but both have different roles within a marriage, you cant have two Squad Leaders trying to command the same Squad at the same time otherwise you get arguments along with other forms of chaos.

 

[Eddie_D]

Yes you are the master of your home, but it takes two to have an argument and yet you were only going to tell of the husband presumably simply because hes not a blood relative.

All you would achieve would be to turn a little argument into a one that could last a lifetime and on top of that you would undermine one of the pillars of your daughters marriage, that the husband is the head. And for what? So you could show your daughter that you are a better man than her husband?

Husbands should respect their wives to no argument from me there, but both have different roles within a marriage, you cant have two Squad Leaders trying to command the same Squad at the same time otherwise you get arguments along with other forms of chaos.

I’d tell off my son-in-law because he, ultimately, bears the responsibility - he is, after all, the ‘head of his family’ and should have the maturity, decency and self-respect to keep his family arguments private. If it were my son arguing publicly with my daughter-in-law in my house, I’d tell him off, too.

Your approach to all this suggests that you have zilch experience of (a) being a parent of adult offspring and (b) the give and take of married life (hint: it’s not run like the military).

 

[chevalier]

Your wife is completely in the wrong, now that she is married her loyalties should lie with you. The Scriptures and the teachings of the Catholic Church concerning marriage are clear on this, that coupled with the fact that the father is clearly a degenerate bum and a bully should be enough for anyone.

Would you tell that lady in her face that her father is a degenerate and a bully and she should disregard him and follow whatever her husband thinks of him? What about the loyalties of the husband that lie with the wife?

She was also in the wrong for not accepting your judgement about the car and instead turning it into a argument, Scriptures and the Church are clear about the authority of the husband to.

Marriage is not about the monastic kind of obedience. Marriage is not a cloistered ordered or a military unit. Marriage is not about things being the husband’s way and the wife never trying as much as to get a reason for his decision or to counsel a different one. “Lord and husband” is not Catholic dogma.

Personally you were justified in beating the hell out of him in my opinion.

That is not true. One is not justified in assaulting and beating up his father in law because he feels offended or even because of threats or any such. One is justified in using violence when one is defending himself and delivering a beating is never defence. Defence is repealing an assault. Beating the father-in-law would have been a crime and rightfully so.

I would never have anything to do with him ever again even if he apologised his word can’t be trusted and so would mean nothing(that was your only mistake asking for an apology as if his opinion was worth anything)

Anyone’s opinion is worth something. Rude expression does not remove validity from an opinion. A wife’s father’s opinion is especially worth consideration.

, plus he is setting a terrible example to any children present and frankly is a threat to your marriage by the sounds of things.

Likely correct and a good reason not to expose oneself or children to him. Doesn’t mean it’s right to beat him, to say it’s worthless whatever he thinks, or his daughter should see him as a degenerate and bully.

And if his understanding fail, have patience with him, and despise him not when thou art in thy strength: for the relieving of the father shall not be forgotten.

(Ecclesiasticus 3)

You were the outsider in this situation that is clear and your wife should be ashamed of herself for making you so.

 

[Lifeisamazing]

I, personally, would never dream of having a heated public argument with my spouse anywhere. And definately not in front of his family or mine.

My parents would likely interrupt and remind us that they are in their home and say “not the time nor place”.

FIL handled it wrong, unless the OP was being abusive to his wife, which doesn’t sound like the case. What do you expect from a person who’s own life is not order and may have an alcohol problem?

I also didn’t read anything that suggested his wife was favoring her father over her husband. Sounds like she just might be trying to suggest a different solution than demanding a sincere apology or else b/c she would like to have some relationship with her family (but she is not likely verbalizing it in a clear way-- she is a product of an abusive environment so she may not have learned some of the relationship skills she needs). Ofcourse, that is just complete specualation on my part.

There are several ways to resolve these situations. One should consider that the “my way or the highway” route is not always what is best for the whole.

Take the anger at FIL out of the situation, and listen to each others fears and concerns and develop a reasonable plan. Yes, the husband is the head, but the wife is the neck to help him see instead of using blinders.

 

[dianaballein]

I, personally, would never dream of having a heated public argument with my spouse anywhere. And definately not in front of his family or mine.

My parents would likely interrupt and remind us that they are in their home and say “not the time nor place”.

FIL handled it wrong, unless the OP was being abusive to his wife, which doesn’t sound like the case. What do you expect from a person who’s own life is not order and may have an alcohol problem?

I also didn’t read anything that suggested his wife was favoring her father over her husband. Sounds like she just might be trying to suggest a different solution than demanding a sincere apology or else b/c she would like to have some relationship with her family (but she is not likely verbalizing it in a clear way-- she is a product of an abusive environment so she may not have learned some of the relationship skills she needs). Ofcourse, that is just complete specualation on my part.

There are several ways to resolve these situations. One should consider that the “my way or the highway” route is not always what is best for the whole.

Take the anger at FIL out of the situation, and listen to each others fears and concerns and develop a reasonable plan. Yes, the husband is the head, but the wife is the neck to help him see instead of using blinders.

This is a great response. The best yet!

 

[Leonius]

Would you tell that lady in her face that her father is a degenerate and a bully and she should disregard him and follow whatever her husband thinks of him? What about the loyalties of the husband that lie with the wife?

We are dealing with a real situation here not hypotheticals, do you think it is right for a man’s wife to side with her Father over her husband after her Father has has threatened to murder her husband?

Marriage is not about the monastic kind of obedience. Marriage is not a cloistered ordered or a military unit. Marriage is not about things being the husband’s way and the wife never trying as much as to get a reason for his decision or to counsel a different one. “Lord and husband” is not Catholic dogma.

I never said that though did I, nor did the OP do that from what I can tell, again we are talking about this situation as describes by the OP. He did give his reasons, the car he believed was overloaded and would therefore be dangerous to drive, she wasn’t wiling to accept that and made an argument out of it. Someone has to have the final say, God has given that authority to the husband that does not mean you cant have a discussion, but if something becomes an argument it is generally because one side is not wiling to back down.

That is not true. One is not justified in assaulting and beating up his father in law because he feels offended or even because of threats or any such. One is justified in using violence when one is defending himself and delivering a beating is never defence. Defence is repealing an assault. Beating the father-in-law would have been a crime and rightfully so.

Not if it was self defence, it all depends on how much the OP believes the threat to murder him.

Anyone’s opinion is worth something. Rude expression does not remove validity from an opinion. A wife’s father’s opinion is especially worth consideration.

He wasn’t giving a opinion he was giving a dressing down of his Son in Law and I would not believe a word he he said because it sounds like he is not a man of his word.

Likely correct and a good reason not to expose oneself or children to him. Doesn’t mean it’s right to beat him, to say it’s worthless whatever he thinks, or his daughter should see him as a degenerate and bully.

Whether it is right to beat him up would depend on whether he is a threat or not, personally I would have felt pretty threatened in that situation. Secondly I never said its worthless what he thinks I said his apology would be worthless because I honestly don’t think he would mean it or that it would mean that he wouldn’t do it again, its worthless asking for an apology because it changes nothing and frankly its not going to happen anyway. If he wanted to apologise he would apologise without needing to be asked, apologies under duress are never sincere.

Duties to parents are not to be put above duties of a married couple to each other and their children. Let me quote from marriage advice I have received:

"IV. Duties Towards Parents
Although it is advisable that young married couples do not live with the parents of the husband or the wife, they nevertheless owe them reverence and love. This obligation never ceases.

1. Father-in-law and mother-in-law should be treated with the same respect and love as one’s own father and mother.
2. Gratitude requires that married children bring cheer to their parents by doing them desirable favors, giving them agreeable surprises and remembering them with presents on suitable occasions.
3. It is becoming that they consult their parents on important matters. The parents are their best friends and counselors. As a rule the elders have more experience and a more mature judgment.
4. Children must patiently bear the faults and shortcomings of their parents, especially the bodily and mental infirmities of old age, and give them support if necessary. Very likely they will be treated by their own children as they have treated their parents.

**Should parents attempt to sow discord, mistrust, and aversion between husband and wife, such things happen sometimes, they are not to be listened to. No one, not even father and mother, dare come between the two. “A man shall leave father and mother,” we read in the Book of Genesis, “and cleave to his wife.” (2, 24)
**

 

[Leonius]

II. Duties Towards Each Other

A. Conjugal Love. Your bridal love will be changed into conjugal, married love. This love must be rooted in God, not merely in sex or external attractions, in order to endure and grow stronger. God Himself laid down the general rules for its maintenance and practice.

1. The husband. According to divine ordinance the husband is the head, the king, the support of the wife and the children. St. Paul writes in the fifth chapter of the epistle to the Ephesians, “Let wives be subject to their husbands as to the Lord; because a husband is the head of the wife, just as Christ is head of the Church … Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the Church, and delivered Himself up for her …Even thus ought husbands also to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife, loves himself.” From this it is clear that the exercise of his authority is not to be severe and cold, but considerate and kind. The wife is his partner and companion, not his servant.

Married love obliges him to take good care of his wife and children. Therefore he must be industrious and saving, plan and manage wisely. No company should be dearer to him than that of his family. The man who prefers the tavern or club to his home neglects serious duties and forgoes exquisite pleasures. It would be wrong to leave domestic affairs entirely to the wife. She is entitled to cooperation and recognition. He certainly bears a large share of responsibility in maintaining a wholesome atmosphere in the home and in keeping out dangerous influences. Finally, he owes it to his wife to provide for the uncertain future as well as he can by reliable insurance.
**
2. The wife.** She is the heart, the queen, the providence of the family. Happiness in marriage depends to a great extent on her. She should strive to be a delicious compound of sweet temper, courtesy, and self-sacrifice. Her kingdom is the home, where she reigns as queen of love, doing all in her power to make it cozy and pleasant. Many men seek outside distractions, because their wives neglect them and their homes. The wife must be reasonably economical in dress and housekeeping, see to order and cleanliness, have nourishing and well prepared meats ready at the right time, cheerfully accede to all reasonable wishes of the husband and be an example of piety. A real helpmate usually holds the affection of her husband.

My insistence on mutual love may surprise you. Does not your presence here show that you are in love with each other? Yes, but very likely your life will not be always as rosy as it is now. When the charm of living together has worn off, you will discover weaknesses and faults in each other. Even trifles are sometimes very annoying. You must be ready to make allowances and practice patience. Marriage is for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health. Think of the words of St. Paul: “Bear one another’s burden, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ.” (Gal. 6,2) If peace has been disturbed, restore it at once — not with many words, but with a friendly handshake or hearty kiss. Forgive and forget and never speak of such painful incidents to others.