Am I evil?

[jonathan_hili]

Hi Rabbit The Kitten, as others have mentioned, “infallibility” does not mean making poor or completely wrong moral decisions and falling into sin. We are all capable of that, even the Pope.

What makes the Church “infallible” is when She pronounces on issues of faith and morals truths that cannot contain any error; they may be incomplete and need development, but they cannot be wrong as the Holy Spirit guides and protects Her.

Now as for being evil, though we are all made “good”, we are fallen and in a sense, all are evil. In the Sermon on the Mount (Matt 7:11) Jesus says that we are “evil”, though he does not mean by this that we are thoroughly wicked, but sinful and fallen. Yet, we are capable of repentance, recognising and doing the good.

If you have disagreements with the Church, Rabbit The Kitten, I suggest you investigate them and pray. It is not good to separate yourself (no matter how little) from Mother Church; we all need her.

God bless.

 

[mymamamary]

Well put. Only one little correction: it is ONLY the pope who can proclaim truths ex-cathedra, not the bishops or even the bishops with the Pope.

Really? I thought from the Catechism that when the Bishops come together and convene, in full union with the Holy Father, they can make infallible statements on morals? Can You please help clarify this?

 

[Sister_Terese]

Really? I thought from the Catechism that when the Bishops come together and convene, in full union with the Holy Father, they can make infallible statements on morals? Can You please help clarify this?

Only the pope can make dogmatic proclamations ex-cathedra.

 

[thomasf]

Am I Evil is a great song. Loves me some Metallica.

 

[Apolojez]

Another example, a gay couple in a loving relationship who adopts children. The children brought up in a loving environment, do well and are happy. Compared to a situation where gays can’t adopt, the children grow up in care, become criminals as adults, cause further people to suffer and spend most of their adult life in gaol.

Growing up with a best friend who was gay, and tormented by others because of his sexual orientation, I saw firsthand how cruel people can be. It’s a shame that we as a society still lash out at what we don’t understand, even after the advancements we’ve made with racial and gender equality.

I’m sure many people, if given the choice between having a child raised by a loving and compassionate gay man and a drunkard racist wife-beater who’s straight would actually need time to think about it. The problem is that in the first case, the the main word most people see is “gay” rather than “loving and compassionate”.

 

[R_C]

Growing up with a best friend who was gay, and tormented by others because of his sexual orientation, I saw firsthand how cruel people can be. It’s a shame that we as a society still lash out at what we don’t understand, even after the advancements we’ve made with racial and gender equality.

I’m sure many people, if given the choice between having a child raised by a loving and compassionate gay man and a drunkard racist wife-beater who’s straight would actually need time to think about it. The problem is that in the first case, the the main word most people see is “gay” rather than “loving and compassionate”.

You are missing the point here. We are not here to have a grading scale of parents. We are not here to pick between the compassionate and the non-compassionate homosexual, the compassionate and the non-compassionate heterosexual, the drunkard homosexual, the racist heterosexual, and the drunkard racist wife-beater who is unsure about his sexual orientation… that is just nonsense.

There is something about matrimony and about parenthood that makes it such. And that is without discrimination of gender, and that is also without discrimination in terms of sinfulness of the individual. It simply relates to the way things ought to be in accordance to God’s will.

Being homosexual is not sinful, nor is being homosexual a reason for anyone to be subject to discrimination. This the Church has always taught and the secular world - you know, the one that speaks of “gay rights” and about how bigot the Church is - has never cared about them. The Church did not need think tanks and lobbies and marches and pride groups and awareness events to preach love towards all, to preach respect towards all, and to admonish that all discrimination is a sin against the living God. The secular world, on the other hand, will only act according to what the latest trends and polls are. Who knows, in a hundred years the tide may shift and we may have Congress enact a version of the Labouchere Amendment that would lead gay men and women to years of prison or worse…just because that’s how the people think at that time in history! After all, this is still the case in some countries, and who are we to say that they’re wrong, if their own people approve of such laws?

Thankfully, the Church reasons in accordance to what God has taught her, and her teachings are consistent: they were consistent two thousand years ago, they were consistent five hundred years ago, they remain consistent today, and no matter how much the secular world gets angry and hates us, they will remain consistent tomorrow as well. And what is most important: her teachings are teachings of pure love.

Let us clarify that the Church teaching about Matrimony and about adoption of children are not a form of discrimination or hatred against anyone, and that those who claim so are actually making a display of ignorance and of hatred against Christianity.

 

[Brighitte]

Really? I thought from the Catechism that when the Bishops come together and convene, in full union with the Holy Father, they can make infallible statements on morals? Can You please help clarify this?

You’re right.
It’s not “ex-cathedra”, but it’s just as infallible.

 

[Brighitte]

Only the pope can make dogmatic proclamations ex-cathedra.

Only the Pope can make “ex-cathedra” proclamations, of course, but “ex-cathedra” proclamations are not the only teachings/proclamations that are infallible.
A gathered group of Bishops along with or in communion with the Pope who get together to define an issue of Faith or morals, also have infallibility, like in an “ecumenical council”.
The Pope is the only “individual” to have infallibility or make ex-cathedra proclamations. The Bishops each do not individually have infallibility,but convened together to define an issue of faith or morals, do so, it’s just wouldn’t be called “ex-cathedra”

 

[Apolojez]

You are missing the point here. We are not here to have a grading scale of parents. We are not here to pick between the compassionate and the non-compassionate homosexual, the compassionate and the non-compassionate heterosexual, the drunkard homosexual, the racist heterosexual, and the drunkard racist wife-beater who is unsure about his sexual orientation… that is just nonsense.

There is something about matrimony and about parenthood that makes it such. And that is without discrimination of gender, and that is also without discrimination in terms of sinfulness of the individual. It simply relates to the way things ought to be in accordance to God’s will.

Being homosexual is not sinful, nor is being homosexual a reason for anyone to be subject to discrimination. This the Church has always taught and the secular world - you know, the one that speaks of “gay rights” and about how bigot the Church is - has never cared about them. The Church did not need think tanks and lobbies and marches and pride groups and awareness events to preach love towards all, to preach respect towards all, and to admonish that all discrimination is a sin against the living God. The secular world, on the other hand, will only act according to what the latest trends and polls are. Who knows, in a hundred years the tide may shift and we may have Congress enact a version of the Labouchere Amendment that would lead gay men and women to years of prison or worse…just because that’s how the people think at that time in history! After all, this is still the case in some countries, and who are we to say that they’re wrong, if their own people approve of such laws?

Thankfully, the Church reasons in accordance to what God has taught her, and her teachings are consistent: they were consistent two thousand years ago, they were consistent five hundred years ago, they remain consistent today, and no matter how much the secular world gets angry and hates us, they will remain consistent tomorrow as well. And what is most important: her teachings are teachings of pure love.

Let us clarify that the Church teaching about Matrimony and about adoption of children are not a form of discrimination or hatred against anyone, and that those who claim so are actually making a display of ignorance and of hatred against Christianity.

I was speaking of society in general and how reluctant we are to accept others even after the social advancements we’ve made regarding race and gender in this country. I grew up in backwoods U.S.A. where being different is a scarlet letter. How people who supposedly espouse love, charity, and forgiveness can so easily embrace behaving so evil is sad.

I believe every person should be treated equally regardless of race, gender, religious preference or sexual orientation and be allowed the equal freedom to choose their own destiny. It’s what I saw about the CC that stood out from the rest. People weren’t running around constantly judging one another.

 

[Michael_Allen]

Hi Rabbitthekitten

It seems to me you are just questioning things. My mind works in the same way - I’m just not wired to believe something on the basis of someone telling me they have infallibility behind what they are saying. Also I just don’t fully trust my own judgement to say who has infallible authority or not. Over the years I have had doubts even about the existence of God - that’s just been part of my walk. Thankfully those years (of where doubt seemed stronger than faith) have passed now, but I’m wary of being too sure of myself and actually have found a little room for doubts and questions has helped my faith mature.

God bless you +

Michael

 

[Moore11]

I have what some consider liberal views. I also don’t think the church is right on everything. When I voiced these opinions on another thread 90% of people told me I was wrong. One even suggested I convert to the Protestant religion. Now, I don’t think the church is infallible, look at the covering up of paedophile priests as a shocking example. Does this make me evil? Because I was always brought up to question everything and except nothing. Clearly covering up child abuse is wrong, so why not other things that I view as immoral?

I have never understood why some side against God and his Church in the matter of a sexual deviancy. Is carnal pleasure really an overriding theological principle?

 

[Apolojez]

I have never understood why some side against God and his Church in the matter of a sexual deviancy. Is carnal pleasure really an overriding theological principle?

I don’t think it’s a gay over God thing really. It’s that people have misconceptions about gays just as many have misconceptions about what Catholics believe. I can have a logical discussion with a Christian about what gay is or I can have a logical discussion with an anti-Catholic and the results are likely to turn out the same.

I’ve already surrendered everything I once believed to God’s will so he could bring me into the Church so it’s easy for me now to ask difficult questions because I no longer fear what answer I may find. I’m just saying that too many people have closed their minds so as not to even ask a question.

I’d hoped for a forum like thisthat would be open to contemplating even the most difficult questions or scenarios.

 

[Michael_Allen]

I have never understood why some side against God and his Church in the matter of a sexual deviancy. Is carnal pleasure really an overriding theological principle?

Some genuinelly believe God does not condemn loving and caring same-sex relationships. They would believe, in good conscience, that they are siding with God.

I believe we need to start by acknowledging that people, in good will, understand the morality of loving same-sex relationships differently.

Personally, I am undecided. As I’ll never really know what’s in the hearts and minds of those in loving same-sex relationships I’m happy to accept that I’ll probably remain uncertain, so the question I have is where to place the benefit of doubt. I’m happy to take my time on that.

Anyway, my rambling is rather off-topic, so I will leave it there.

 

[Moore11]

Some genuinelly believe God does not condemn loving and caring same-sex relationships. They would believe, in good conscience, that they are siding with God.

I believe we need to start by acknowledging that people, in good will, understand the morality of loving same-sex relationships differently.

Personally, I am undecided. As I’ll never really know what’s in the hearts and minds of those in loving same-sex relationships I’m happy to accept that I’ll probably remain uncertain, so the question I have is where to place the benefit of doubt. I’m happy to take my time on that.

Anyway, my rambling is rather off-topic, so I will leave it there.

But that does not answer my question. How can that be theologically and historically compatible with Catholicism? I have never understood why within the Catholic element there is this illogical belief about homosexuality. It does not jive with any in depth view of Christianity. I guess I just wonder why so many hang onto such an anti christian idea such as same sex “marriage” Do they not understand the Gospel or their own faith?

 

[Sister_Terese]

I have what some consider liberal views. I also don’t think the church is right on everything. When I voiced these opinions on another thread 90% of people told me I was wrong. One even suggested I convert to the Protestant religion. Now, I don’t think the church is infallible, look at the covering up of paedophile priests as a shocking example. Does this make me evil? Because I was always brought up to question everything and except nothing. Clearly covering up child abuse is wrong, so why not other things that I view as immoral?

I have looked through all of your posts and can’t find a single one that doesn’t deal with homosexuality and your arguments against the Catholic Church. So, my question is: Why are you here? No matter how you rationalize homosexuality, the Church is NEVER going to change its stand. No matter how you try to disparage the Catholic Church’s teachings, she will never change to accommodate heretical ideas. If you don’t like it, leave! It’s that simple. There are hundreds and thousands of other Christian churches who embrace homosexuality and homosexuals, and have varying degrees of “rules” that are easily bent to fit just about anyone. You can worship the way you desire…that is, IF that is truly what you desire…which I don’t think is the case. Like so many other malcontents who seem to gravitate to Catholic and/or conservative sites, you have an agenda. It isn’t to “learn” or to ask questions, it’s to wield a personal axe.

 

[R_C]

I believe every person should be treated equally regardless of race, gender, religious preference or sexual orientation and be allowed the equal freedom to choose their own destiny. It’s what I saw about the CC that stood out from the rest. People weren’t running around constantly judging one another.

We believe in the same principles. We believe in not judging one another.

In fact, we are the ones that universalized those principles.

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

This sad, poor secular world will keep rolling around and changing, but the Church remains in her teachings consistent as back in the days of the Roman Empire, as through the times of the great clashes between kingdoms and even civilizations, and it is not in the least disturbed by the arrogant pretension of XXI Century countries trying to impose on her their poll-based, majority-based, ultimately relativist ideas on good and truth, right and wrong.

That just doesn’t work. See, we are humbled by the idea that we are a city on the hill that cannot be hidden and that we reflect the light of truth - a truth not Greek in definition (meaning a variable truth) but Hebrew in definition (meaning timeless, not subject to change). And a thousand years from now, if we still exist, who knows what countries and forms of government will exist, and what will they try to come up with - though the principles are always similar, and always contrary to true life and true love - and the Church will still be there, patiently bearing all hatred and persecution, faithful to simple, discreet indications:

What I received I passed on to you as of first importance. …] So, brethren, stand your ground, and hold fast to the teachings which you have received from us, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters, if the world hates you.

I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.

Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

 

[Sister_Terese]

But that does not answer my question. How can that be theologically and historically compatible with Catholicism? I have never understood why within the Catholic element there is this illogical belief about homosexuality. It does not jive with any in depth view of Christianity. I guess I just wonder why so many hang onto such an anti christian idea such as same sex “marriage” Do they not understand the Gospel or their own faith?

In what way is the Church’s view on homosexuality “illogical”?

And please explain what you mean by “it does not jive with any in-depth view of Christianity”? What “in-depth” view of Christianity and by whom?

 

[Sister_Terese]

Only the Pope can make “ex-cathedra” proclamations, of course, but “ex-cathedra” proclamations are not the only teachings/proclamations that are infallible.
A gathered group of Bishops along with or in communion with the Pope who get together to define an issue of Faith or morals, also have infallibility, like in an “ecumenical council”.
The Pope is the only “individual” to have infallibility or make ex-cathedra proclamations. The Bishops each do not individually have infallibility,but convened together to define an issue of faith or morals, do so, it’s just wouldn’t be called “ex-cathedra”

I never said that it was. The discussion was on infallibility in faith and morals. Infallibility does not apply to bishops. It applies to the pope as the leader of the magisterium. The ultimate decision of whether a dogmatic ex-cathedra proclamation is to be made lies with the Holy Father. His decision is normally a result of much study and (name removed by moderator)ut from those Cardinals and bishops in accord with the Holy Father. Ultimately, the pope in matters of faith and morals and in the event of an ex-cathedra dogmatic proclamation means that we Catholics are bound by pain of mortal sin to believe. Vatican II was an ecumenical council. It was not a dogmatic council like Vatican I or Trent.

 

[Sister_Terese]

Some genuinelly believe God does not condemn loving and caring same-sex relationships. They would believe, in good conscience, that they are siding with God.

I believe we need to start by acknowledging that people, in good will, understand the morality of loving same-sex relationships differently.

Personally, I am undecided. As I’ll never really know what’s in the hearts and minds of those in loving same-sex relationships I’m happy to accept that I’ll probably remain uncertain, so the question I have is where to place the benefit of doubt. I’m happy to take my time on that.

Anyway, my rambling is rather off-topic, so I will leave it there.

The clear and constant teaching of the Catholic Church has always been that homosexual acts, like sexual acts outside of marriage, are intrinsicly evil.

 

[Sister_Terese]

I don’t think it’s a gay over God thing really. It’s that people have misconceptions about gays just as many have misconceptions about what Catholics believe. I can have a logical discussion with a Christian about what gay is or I can have a logical discussion with an anti-Catholic and the results are likely to turn out the same.

I’ve already surrendered everything I once believed to God’s will so he could bring me into the Church so it’s easy for me now to ask difficult questions because I no longer fear what answer I may find. I’m just saying that too many people have closed their minds so as not to even ask a question.

I’d hoped for a forum like thisthat would be open to contemplating even the most difficult questions or scenarios.

Let’s also remember: " Roma locuta; causa finita est." St. Augustine (“Rome has spoken, the matter is finished.”)