Am I evil?

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Thank you for replying CC. I suppose I feel we shouldn’t begin with a preconceived notion that homosexuality is harmful for a child because we really don’t know. I do agree that abuse of a child will improve their chances of repeating the abuse on others someday but that’s not the same issue here IMO. I’ve heard where serial killers had normal families despite their nature. Heck I’m sure we all know a few whackos with great kids. 😃
Apolojez,

So you want a population of people that have a higher rate of drug abuse, depression and suicide to parent children? Why is this population so dysfunctional?
 
Apolojez,

So you want a population of people that have a higher rate of drug abuse, depression and suicide to parent children? Why is this population so dysfunctional?
When it comes to adoption I trust potential parents are looked at on a case-by-case basis. I wouldn’t, for example, say that no Americans are suitable parents just because Americans as a group have a much higher rate of gun crime than Europeans.
 
It seems to me that the churches have only recently begun to think about loving and stable same-sex relationships. That’s a context somewhat different to the historical view. That doesn’t make those loving relationships right per se, but may give us a reason to pause, talk (especially with those couples) and reflect for a period of time.

Anyway, that’s the way I see it, but I accept that there are strong opinions held on both sides.

God bless +
It has nothing to do with opinions. The Catholic Church does not run on opinion polls or popularity votes. The Catholic Church is not a democratic institution, as I’ve said on other threads. Because many people think that it is does not make it so. The Church’s teachings are from God. To claim otherwise is to deny the words of Our Lord when He said that the Holy Spirit would be with the Church for all time. In other words, Jesus was a liar. Homosexual acts are grave sins. To consider raising children in such an environment is not just against the Church’s constant teachings about impurity and sexual behaviors, but it is against the natural law. To suggest that homosexual couples should be allowed to adopt children simply is to fall into the error that Church teachings are subject to individual modernist interpretations. This is the same as saying that the Holy Spirit does not guide the Church, but popular opinion does.
 
I never said that it was. The discussion was on infallibility in faith and morals. Infallibility does not apply to bishops. It applies to the pope as the leader of the magisterium. The ultimate decision of whether a dogmatic ex-cathedra proclamation is to be made lies with the Holy Father. His decision is normally a result of much study and (name removed by moderator)ut from those Cardinals and bishops in accord with the Holy Father. Ultimately, the pope in matters of faith and morals and in the event of an ex-cathedra dogmatic proclamation means that we Catholics are bound by pain of mortal sin to believe. Vatican II was an ecumenical council. It was not a dogmatic council like Vatican I or Trent.
I’m not entirely sure we disagree then, but just to clarify things, I’ll ask you straight out, do you believe that in the Extraordinary Magisterium the Bishops acting with the Pope when defining a matter of Faith and morals have infallibility, or do you believe that ex-cathedra proclamations are the only teachings that have infallibility? Thanks 🙂

-Brighitte
 
When it comes to adoption I trust potential parents are looked at on a case-by-case basis. I wouldn’t, for example, say that no Americans are suitable parents just because Americans as a group have a much higher rate of gun crime than Europeans.
Michael,

You are taking a culture and comparing a culture. This is a non-sequitor and has no basis in the discussion of Homosexuals and Male/Female He created them…
 
I have looked through all of your posts and can’t find a single one that doesn’t deal with homosexuality and your arguments against the Catholic Church. So, my question is: Why are you here? No matter how you rationalize homosexuality, the Church is NEVER going to change its stand. No matter how you try to disparage the Catholic Church’s teachings, she will never change to accommodate heretical ideas. If you don’t like it, leave! It’s that simple. There are hundreds and thousands of other Christian churches who embrace homosexuality and homosexuals, and have varying degrees of “rules” that are easily bent to fit just about anyone. You can worship the way you desire…that is, IF that is truly what you desire…which I don’t think is the case. Like so many other malcontents who seem to gravitate to Catholic and/or conservative sites, you have an agenda. It isn’t to “learn” or to ask questions, it’s to wield a personal axe.
Dear Sister_Therese,
I hope you don’t feel that I am picking on you. I’m not entirely sure that you are correct in recommending to Rabbit to leave because he cannot yet reconcile his opinions about homosexuality with the Catholic Church. You’re right in saying that the Church will never change its stand to conform to heretical ideas, but grasping Truth is not easy for everyone. The very Word of God walked among men and was put to death. If we’re capable of that, we’re capable of not accepting other truths like those of sexuality. We should be aware, patient, and gentle-hearted with people that are trying to understand.
There are many things I have struggled agreeing with the Catholic Church on, and it was through intense prayer, study, and begging the Holy Spirit to give me Wisdom and protection from the Devil 's cunning lies, that I have moved closer to the Church.
This website is wonderful, it’s already a good sign that Rabbit is here looking for answers rather than on some “anti-Catholic” bashing site. He’s here, reading your opinions and your replies to his questions.
There are many people who are fine with Catholicism until the issue of homosexuality. I have never been such a person, and it doesn’t make much sense to me that so many struggle to agree with Catholics, but the fact is that it’s true. For many, their one obstacle to Catholicism is the issue of homosexuality. I think our job is to pray for those people that they may have clarity and wisdom, and to answer any and all questions that they may have with the intent of bringing Christ’s light to them. I don’t think telling them “too bad, we’re not going to change, so you can go elsewhere”, is helpful.
Our goal is salvation for all.
 
Michael,

You are taking a culture and comparing a culture. This is a non-sequitor and has no basis in the discussion of Homosexuals and Male/Female He created them…
Hello CC,

The point was that you extrapolated from a group to individuals when you said “So, what you want to do is expose children to parenting by people that have a higher rate of depression, substance abuse and suicide…what is going on with these people? You want them to have more children to parent?”.

There are plenty of gay people who aren’t depressed (not that I would rule out ever giving a child to people who suffered depression; people who suffer from MH issues can often be loving and capable parents), don’t abuse substances, and don’t commit suicide.

Like I said, I wouldn’t say “you can’t adopt because you’re an American, and Americans as a group have high gun crime and I don’t want to give a child to a person who is reckless with a gun”. I wouldn’t extrapolate from a group to every individual in that group.

What matters to me is what the people are like themselves; I think we need to be wary of looking at people as stereotypes, be they gay, American, Baptist, Catholic, Jews.

Over time we need to better understand how children fair being looked after by same-sex couples, so we can make decisions informed by empirical data rather than by theories and, possibly, prejudices. In general though, I am in favour of putting children in an environment that is sympathetic to their cultural background.

Anyway, as I say, I understand that people hold quite different opinions, and often quite strongly on this issue, and I respect everybody’s right to hold to their conscience on this issue, whatever their stance.

God bless you CC +e
 
I highly doubt anyone is saying that a “drunkard racist wife-beater who’s straight” is better simply because it is a “straight” relationship. No. This is a false dichotomy. The second one is unacceptable for obvious reasons, and the first, no matter how “loving and compassionate” one plays it off, is unacceptable as well, because this is necessarily raising children to believe that what is objectively wrong is acceptable. If love is to will the good of the other, it is not love to teach and show children to approve of sin (which is, by definition, not good).
It’s unacceptable to our faith but I don’t see it as any more harmful for a child than straight parents with issues. So therefore my choice would be for a child to be raised in a loving household regardless of the sexual orientation of their parents. I would choose gay parents before racist parents, alcoholic parents, abusive parents, etc. Just my opinion.
 
It’s unacceptable to our faith but I don’t see it as any more harmful for a child than straight parents with issues. So therefore my choice would be for a child to be raised in a loving household regardless of the sexual orientation of their parents. I would choose gay parents before racist parents, alcoholic parents, abusive parents, etc. Just my opinion.
**
Gay parents would have the potential temptation to be abusive parents**
 
Of course you are not evil. God has provided you with a brain and expects you to use it. So, my dear use it and use it prayerfully. In Catholic theological circles there are debates on many topics so not everyone agrees.:):):)🙂
 
Hello CC,

The point was that you extrapolated from a group to individuals when you said “So, what you want to do is expose children to parenting by people that have a higher rate of depression, substance abuse and suicide…what is going on with these people? You want them to have more children to parent?”.

There are plenty of gay people who aren’t depressed (not that I would rule out ever giving a child to people who suffered depression; people who suffer from MH issues can often be loving and capable parents), don’t abuse substances, and don’t commit suicide.

Like I said, I wouldn’t say “you can’t adopt because you’re an American, and Americans as a group have high gun crime and I don’t want to give a child to a person who is reckless with a gun”. I wouldn’t extrapolate from a group to every individual in that group.

Over time we need to better understand how children fair being looked after by same-sex couples, so we can make decisions informed by empirical data rather than by theories and, possibly, prejudices. In general though, I am in favour of putting children in an environment that is sympathetic to their cultural background.

Anyway, as I say, I understand that people hold quite different opinions, and often quite strongly on this issue, and I respect everybody’s right to hold to their conscience on this issue, whatever their stance.

God bless you CC +e
Michael
What matters to me is what the people are like themselves; I think we need to be wary of looking at people as stereotypes, be they gay, American, Baptist, Catholic, Jews.
Understand that you are placing

Homosexual…not born that way, defined by behavior

American because they were either born in America or migrated

Baptist for whatever reason, a religion

Catholic for whatever reason, a religion

Jews, genetic, not necessarily religous

all in one group that do not equate.
 
Apolojez,

When considering Homosexual parenting you have to examine the inherent unstable nature of the Homosexual…

psychcentral.com/lib/2011/higher-risk-of-mental-health-problems-for-homosexuals/

traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/a02rStatistcs.html

freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1502263/posts

So, what you want to do is expose children to parenting by people that have a higher rate of depression, substance abuse and suicide…what is going on with these people? You want them to have more children to parent?
I have to flatly disagree with these studies. As I stated earlier, my best friend growing up was gay and he endured hell. He hid his pain well when we were young but I knew what he was going through mainly because I received similar abuse, to a lesser degree, just for being his friend. Yet today he is a happy person with no issues or addictions whatsoever and is raising a normal 11 yr old who would be an orphan otherwise. And he is currently adopting an 8 yr old because in his words, “his heart broke when he left that home without him also”.

He would have more adopted children if not for the extreme difficulty the government places on gay couples. I’m objecting to the social discrimination against gays and lesbians.
 
I have to flatly disagree with these studies. As I stated earlier, my best friend growing up was gay and he endured hell. He hid his pain well when we were young but I knew what he was going through mainly because I received similar abuse, to a lesser degree, just for being his friend. Yet today he is a happy person with no issues or addictions whatsoever and is raising a normal 11 yr old who would be an orphan otherwise. And he is currently adopting an 8 yr old because in his words, “his heart broke when he left that home without him also”.

He would have more adopted children if not for the extreme difficulty the government places on gay couples. I’m objecting to the social discrimination against gays and lesbians.
Apolojez,

What you are saying is that your empirical experience is in contrast to a rational experience. There has always been a dichotomy of the two and although empiricism has its place it does not equate to the world experience and only means what it means to you that does not equate to anything other than that.
 
Apolojez,

So you want a population of people that have a higher rate of drug abuse, depression and suicide to parent children? Why is this population so dysfunctional?
People use drugs, are depressed, and are suicidal because they have issues. Straight people have issues. Gay people have issues. Catholics have issues. Atheists have issues. Being gay doesn’t make a person predisposed to any of these just as being straight doesn’t. I would assert that people who endure prejudice are more sympathetic to others groups who encounter any prejudice and therefore wouldn’t participate in such practices. This benefits society.
 
Apolojez,

What you are saying is that your empirical experience is in contrast to a rational experience. There has always been a dichotomy of the two and although empiricism has its place it does not equate to the world experience and only means what it means to you that does not equate to anything other than that.
So I’m being irrational in my views?
 
You are kidding, of course…
He brought up this same diatribe about two weeks ago and refused to answer any of our questions. Rather, he just either insulted us or dropped out of the conversation. I would not take him too seriously.
 
So I’m being irrational in my views?
Apolojez,

This should help…

plato.stanford.edu/entries/rationalism-empiricism/
Rationalism vs. Empiricism
First published Thu Aug 19, 2004; substantive revision Thu Mar 21, 2013
The dispute between rationalism and empiricism concerns the extent to which we are dependent upon sense experience in our effort to gain knowledge. Rationalists claim that there are significant ways in which our concepts and knowledge are gained independently of sense experience. Empiricists claim that sense experience is the ultimate source of all our concepts and knowledge.
Rationalists generally develop their view in two ways. First, they argue that there are cases where the content of our concepts or knowledge outstrips the information that sense experience can provide. Second, they construct accounts of how reason in some form or other provides that additional information about the world. Empiricists present complementary lines of thought. First, they develop accounts of how experience provides the information that rationalists cite, insofar as we have it in the first place. (Empiricists will at times opt for skepticism as an alternative to rationalism: if experience cannot provide the concepts or knowledge the rationalists cite, then we don’t have them.) Second, empiricists attack the rationalists’ accounts of how reason is a source of concepts or knowledge.
 
I have looked through all of your posts and can’t find a single one that doesn’t deal with homosexuality and your arguments against the Catholic Church. So, my question is: Why are you here? No matter how you rationalize homosexuality, the Church is NEVER going to change its stand. No matter how you try to disparage the Catholic Church’s teachings, she will never change to accommodate heretical ideas. If you don’t like it, leave! It’s that simple. There are hundreds and thousands of other Christian churches who embrace homosexuality and homosexuals, and have varying degrees of “rules” that are easily bent to fit just about anyone. You can worship the way you desire…that is, IF that is truly what you desire…which I don’t think is the case. Like so many other malcontents who seem to gravitate to Catholic and/or conservative sites, you have an agenda. It isn’t to “learn” or to ask questions, it’s to wield a personal axe.
Amen Sister!

I felt the same way when he first posted about a week and a half ago. Personally, he was trying to twist my words in order to make it appear I was agreeing with him (I wasn’t). And rather than answer any of the posters questions, he was replying with insults. Sadly, I agree that he came here with an agenda to push and I cautioned people against feeding this troll.
 
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