Am I going to Hell for being a Father?

[LilyM]

Ok, I think I may have found something that will help me. Its called “Internal forum solution”. Apparently Bernard Siegle gives an example of what a person does when he or she knows a marriage is invalid but cannot prove it in a public ecclesiastical court. Siegle provides an example of this in “Marriage According to the New Canon Law.”

Exhibit:
Catholic Questions, Wise Answers, Michael J Daley, copyright 2002 pg 389-390

A woman knows that in truth her marriage was/is invalid by divine law. Her partner never intended to enter a genuine permanent union with her and be faithful to her to death. But she cannot prove that in a church tribunal. The husband is gone. He would not be willing to give testimony in a church tribunal. There are no letters written before the marriage in which he tells someone what he is doing. there are no people in whom he confided who are willing to testify.

If he were to come back for a day or week in these circumstances and she had marital relations with him , she would in fact and in conscience be guilty of fornication! They are not actually married.

But without evidence and proof of the real facts, a church tribunal cannot pronounce the marriage invalid. The common good demands that courts (church or civil) decide cases on the basis of available evidence, proof of the facts. The church in the public or external forum says we cannnot pronounce this marriage invalid. We must consider her and her partner husband and wife with the corresponding obligations of spouses.

What a dilemma! It seems whatever way she turns is wrong. She knows she cannot morally live with this man as her husband, but the church law says she is bound to.

She asks her pastor or a priest in confession what she must do. To assist her to live faithful to her conscience and the real truth, he explains her situation to her, gives her the facts and information on which she can judge whether she is truly married or nbot. And he explains the options she has in such a situation. In the end she must make the final judgement about the validity or invalidity of her marriage. In either instance this is called an internal forum solution to her marriage dilemma. It is internal as opposed to the external forum with its judges, advocates, and official judgements entered in the public records of the church.

This is not an attempt to contravene divine law. It is rather an effort to help the person in such a situation live with what is actually the divine law - despite contrary appearances.

When questiond about a letter to the US BISHOPS that dealt with the use of the internal forum or pastoral solution, Archbishhop J. Jerome Hamer, then the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in effect recognized the legitimacy of the internal forum solution. He was explaining that a phrase “probate praxis Ecclesiae” used in the letter was to be underestood in the context of traditional moral theology ---- which teaches the internal forum as a way of handling such cases.

It is possible that some people, unaware of all the facts and that the internal forum solution is being legitimately used, would be scandalized to see such a person receiving Communion. In that case the person could be instructed to receive Communion where he or she is not known.

But how can a person in this situation enter a new marriage if no priest can witness it in the external forum because there is no church pronouncement of invalidity? Canon law itself provides that when a priest is unavailable for a length of time a couple can marry by exchanging consent before witnesses alone.

Pastors and canonist who have recourse to this pastoral solution or the internal forum are not sneaky, crafty, corner-cutting priests trying to “get around” the law or avoiding its consequences. They are priests trying to help people in very difficult and trying circumstances to live in the love of God and in accord with his law and the truth.

Sounds risky. For starters she would have to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that her first husband never at any stage intended a permanent union. And even repeated infidelity may not be enough - he may have a sexual addiction or some other underlying reason for his behaviour that doesn’t negate his consent and intent to marry her.

And secondly you still couldn’t marry her in any case - you guys DO have priests available in your area, so the option of exchanging consent before witnesses alone isn’t open to you.

 

[HenryV]

Ok, I think I may have found something that will help me. Its called “Internal forum solution”. Apparently Bernard Siegle gives an example of what a person does when he or she knows a marriage is invalid but cannot prove it in a public ecclesiastical court. Siegle provides an example of this in “Marriage According to the New Canon Law.”

Exhibit:
Catholic Questions, Wise Answers, Michael J Daley, copyright 2002 pg 389-390

A woman knows that in truth her marriage was/is invalid by divine law. Her partner never intended to enter a genuine permanent union with her and be faithful to her to death. But she cannot "prove that in a church tribunal. The husband is gone. He would not be willing to give testimony in a church tribunal. There are no letters written before the marriage in which he tells someone what he is doing. there are no people in whom he confided who are willing to testify.

If he were to come back for a day or week in these circumstances and she had marital relations with him , she would in fact and in conscience be guilty of fornication! They are not actually married.

But without evidence and proof of the real facts, a church tribunal cannot pronounce the marriage invalid. The common good demands that courts (church or civil) decide cases on the basis of available evidence, proof of the facts. The church in the public or external forum says we cannnot pronounce this marriage invalid. We must consider her and her partner husband and wife with the corresponding obligations of spouses.

What a dilemma! It seems whatever way she turns is wrong. She knows she cannot morally live with this man as her husband, but the church law says she is bound to.

She asks her pastor or a priest in confession what she must do. To assist her to live faithful to her conscience and the real truth, he explains her situation to her, gives her the facts and information on which she can judge whether she is truly married or nbot. And he explains the options she has in such a situation. In the end she must make the final judgement about the validity or invalidity of her marriage. In either instance this is called an internal forum solution to her marriage dilemma. It is internal as opposed to the external forum with its judges, advocates, and official judgements entered in the public records of the church.

This is not an attempt to contravene divine law. It is rather an effort to help the person in such a situation live with what is actually the divine law - despite contrary appearances.

When questiond about a letter to the US BISHOPS that dealt with the use of the internal forum or pastoral solution, Archbishhop J. Jerome Hamer, then the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in effect recognized the legitimacy of the internal forum solution. He was explaining that a phrase “probate praxis Ecclesiae” used in the letter was to be underestood in the context of traditional moral theology ---- which teaches the internal forum as a way of handling such cases.

It is possible that some people, unaware of all the facts and that the internal forum solution is being legitimately used, would be scandalized to see such a person receiving Communion. In that case the person could be instructed to receive Communion where he or she is not known.

But how can a person in this situation enter a new marriage if no priest can witness it in the external forum because there is no church pronouncement of invalidity? Canon law itself provides that when a priest is unavailable for a length of time a couple can marry by exchanging consent before witnesses alone.

Pastors and canonist who have recourse to this pastoral solution or the internal forum are not sneaky, crafty, corner-cutting priests trying to “get around” the law or avoiding its consequences. They are priests trying to help people in very difficult and trying circumstances to live in the love of God and in accord with his law and the truth.

This as wrong as when politicians say they are personally opposed to abortion but they vote for it.

Marriage is a public institution and a sacrament and is governed by laws of the Church. You cannot have recourse to the internal forum without seeking to establish the truth in the external forum.
These kinds of “pastoral solutions” are putting people in danger of everlasting hell-fire.
You cannot entirely kill the voice of God (your conscience) that’s why you felt this way upon hearing the sermon.

You are facing a choice put before you by God.

I’ll pray for you.
“Christianity has not been tried and found wanting it may have been found hard and been left untried.”

 

[Chefboy]

Lilly, these are the facts.

My wife was previously married in the Catholic Church.

Her husband fornicated with another woman and decided to abandon both his child and her for that woman.

Seven years later my wife and I married in a civil ceremony with witnesses.

Request for annulment has been denied two times.

I am going to pursue Internal forum solution now.

 

[LilyM]

Lilly, these are the facts.

My wife was previously married in the Catholic Church.

Her husband fornicated with another woman and decided to abandon both his child and her for that woman.

Seven years later my wife and I married in a civil ceremony with witnesses.

Request for annulment has been denied two times.

I am going to pursue Internal forum solution now.

Read carefully - fornication doesn’t usually affect the validity of the marriage unless it was ongoing from the very beginning of the marriage, and not always even then. Abandonment likewise doesn’t automatically invalidate a marriage.

And sure, the Internal Forum solution allows her to treat her previous marriage as invalid and deny her previous husband should he wish to resume marital relations with her in the future.

This DOES NOT mean she can proceed to have a sexual relationship with you or anyone else or marry you or anyone else validly.

NO Priest can validly marry you without an official pronouncement of invalidity of the previous marriage, and you CANNOT have a valid sacramental marriage without a priest except, as the article states, where a priest is unavailable, which doesn’t apply in your case.

 

[HenryV]

Lilly, these are the facts.

My wife was previously married in the Catholic Church.

Her husband fornicated with another woman and decided to abandon both his child and her for that woman.

Seven years later my wife and I married in a civil ceremony with witnesses.

Request for annulment has been denied two times.

I am going to pursue Internal forum solution now.

The internal forum solution only affects your wife, in that she may think in conscience that her previous marriage was invalid.

You can according to the pope only recieve communion if you are trying to live in complete abstinence.

So the choice is between Jesus in the Eucharist or the Idol of sex.

 

[Chefboy]

Henry, I found something that is legitimate. I have found precedent in just one day of research on this matter and you are casting stones. What gives? I really feel sorry for the individuals who do not have the where with all to research the truth and end up believing close minded individuals. Who are you to say what is politically correct in the Catholic Church? According to the article I quoted we have a Bishop who recognizes internal forum solution. Perhaps you may want to research the New Code of Canon Law before proclaiming a Bishop of the Church as politically incorrect. HMMMMM…

Lilly, As far as I understand it said that “if a priest is unavailable for a length of time a couple can marry by exchanging consent before witnesses alone”. Since the church did not want to annul my wifes previous marriage in the diocese that I attended I would definately have to say that there was not a priest available for a length of time. As a matter of fact its been seven years now and I still have not found a priest to marry my wife and I.

I think the real issue here is not the letter of the law but rather the spirit of the law. Ask yourself, what is a woman to do if her husband abandons her and she falls in love years later with another man. Should she truly live a live of celibacy because the man she married broke his vow before God and her?

I would say unequivocally “NO”. It makes sense to me that our church leaders would leave an out for special circumstances. Jesus is all forgiving and surely he would not condemn my wife for falliing in love with me and marrying me after she was abandoned by her former husband. That really does not sound like the Jesus I have come to know in my life. I firmly believe that he wants me to continue with my Catholicism and to participate in the Holy Eucharist as I travel through this life in search of EVERLASTING LIFE with the Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior.

 

[HenryV]

Henry, I found something that is legitimate. I have found precedent in just one day of research on this matter and you are casting stones. What gives? I really feel sorry for the individuals who do not have the where with all to research the truth and end up believing close minded individuals. Who are you to say what is politically correct in the Catholic Church? According to the article I quoted we have a Bishop who recognizes internal forum solution. Perhaps you may want to research the New Code of Canon Law before proclaiming a Bishop of the Church as politically incorrect. HMMMMM…

Dear Chefboy,
I’m not trying to cast stones I’m just trying to make some things clearer for you. there was some debate in the Church about so called internal forum solutions during the 90’s they were cleared up by the intervention of the pope himself.
In his speeches to the Roman Rota he several times clearly condemned these practices as opposd to the truth. You can do a research on these in just some minutes if you don’t believe me.
I will pray for you because you need strenght in the situation that you are in.

Peace and all good.

In 1995, the pope addressed the Tribunal of the Roman Rota. The Rota acts, among other things, as the highest appeals court in marriage/nullity cases. Here are some excerpts from the pope’s directives:

"4. … it is helpful … to call the attention of ecclesiastical tribunals to the unacceptable consequences resulting from erroneous doctrinal approaches, which have negative repercussions on the administration of justice and, in a particular and even more serious way, on the handling of cases of marital nullity. …

"8. … An action deviating from the objective norm or law is thus morally reprehensible and must be considered as such: while it is true that humans must act in conformity with the judgment of their own conscience, it is equally true that the judgment of conscience cannot claim to establish the law. It can only recognize it and make it its own.

"9. While maintaining the distinction between the magisterial and jurisdictional functions, certainly in ecclesial society the judicial power also emanates from the more general ‘potestas regiminis,’ which in fact belongs to the Church by divine institution (c. 129, ?1), and is divided into three, namely, the ‘legislative, executive and judicial’ (c. 135, ?1). Therefore, whenever doubts arise as to the conformity of an act ?- for example, in the specific case of a marriage ?- with the objective norm, and consequently, the lawfulness or even the validity itself of such an act is called into question, reference must be made to the judgment correctly emanating from legitimate authority (cf. c. 135, ?3), and not to an alleged private judgment, and still less to the individual?s arbitrary conviction. This principle, also formally safeguarded by canon law, establishes:

"‘Even though the previous marriage is invalid or for any reason dissolved, it is not thereby lawful to contract another marriage before the nullity or the dissolution of the previous one has been established lawfully and with certainty’ (c. 1085, ?2).

"Whoever would presume to transgress the legislative provisions concerning the declaration of marital nullity would thus put himself outside, and indeed in a position antithetical to the Church?s authentic magisterium and to canonical legislation itself ?- a unifying and in some ways irreplaceable element for the unity of the Church. This principle applies to whatever involves not only substantive law, but also procedural legislation. This fact must be kept in mind in concrete cases and care should be taken to avoid answers and solutions ‘in foro interno,’[in the internal forum] as it were, to situations that are perhaps difficult but which can be dealt with and resolved only by respecting the canonical norms in force. This must be kept in mind particularly by pastors who may be tempted to distance themselves in substance from the established and approved procedures of the Code.

“Everyone should be reminded of the principle that, although the diocesan bishop has been granted the faculty to dispense, under specific conditions, from disciplinary laws, he is not permitted however to dispense ‘from procedural laws’ (c. 87, ?1).”

[The full text is at http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1995/february /documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19950210_roman-rota_en.html ]

 

[puzzleannie]

Of course you are not going to hell for being a father, and the story you describe in OP is not, in fact, about that.

The best advice is for you and your wife to go to your priest at once, lay out the entire situation regarding your marriage, and take his advice. When you say two priests told your wife she could not get an annulment, does that mean she actually initiated the process and received a judgement, or were they giving an opinion? The only way to find out is for her to initiate the investigation and wait for the action of the marriage tribunal. That judgment will be on the conditions that existed at the time of her first marriage, not on what happened afterward (although that may shed light on the disposition and intent of her ex at the time of the marriage). for more info on annulments search under that in liturgy and sacraments, there are some great links. Until the tribunal has investigated and made a judgement, not one can say definitely whether the first marriage was valid or not.

In the meantime, you should each get individual spiritual direction about the condition of your souls, which will not avail you if you do not follow the priest’s advice for the health of your soul. No one on this forum can make any statement at all about the state of your soul, as this is not confession and we are not priests. What we can do is point out the clear, objective teaching of the Church about the commandments and the sacraments. To do so is not making a judgement about an individual, it is just stating the facts.

If you were not taught properly as a youth, that is not your fault, but since you have found the grace to return to the Church, you now also have the obligation to investigate and learn the fullness of the truth, and moreover, as a husband and father, to pass it along to your family.

What I can tell you from experience in working with families (I would guess a third to half of the families with children in our CCD program face dilemas similar to yours) that when families work together to prepare children for sacraments there is an immense outpouring of grace and that often leads the parents to rectify their irregular marriage situations. That often means the adults in the family also complete their sacraments as many were never confirmed. The end result is magnificent grace for the family and positive changes they never dreamed of. I see it over and over again every year, and all I can promise is that you will never regret it if you urge your wife to do all she can to find healing for the wounds of her past through the annulment process, and that your marriage and family will grow exponentially stronger and happier when you yourself return to the grace of the sacraments through the proper means.

What is offered is not a judgment, but grace. If you are new to the forums, welcome, and take a moment to read the sticky on where do I post my comment. The usual forum to discuss marriage issues is liturgy and sacraments. The forum to discuss moral issues is Morality.

 

[sosayi1960]

Cheese, you sound very close minded on this issue. Im extremely uncertain as to why you are so close minded and readily willing to submit yourself to the authority of the church without questioning the doctrine in order to have a full understanding of your own faith. For me that is like following blindly.

Mathew 16:19 and Luke 10:16 basically establishes the Catholic Church. If we take this literally for everything in life then how would you explain the Dark Ages of the Church? How would you explain the priests in our church who have failed in their ministries. It really makes you think doesn’t it?

I am glad to have found this forum. The validity of my marriage has always bothered me as I have known that the church does not recognize it. Like I said before, I had somewhat compartmentalized this in my mind in order to rear my children as Catholics and to participate in The Holy Eucharist. The Feast of Corpus Christi this past Sunday reminded me that the Church does not recognize the marriage and that I should not be receiving Holy Communion which is a means to Everlasting Life.

So I have to convince the Church to recognize my marriage. If you know of any doctrine that will help me do this then why dont you share it with me rather then condemn my marriage and berate me as a man dragging around my wife in “SIN”.

Sorry, for many of the responses. I commend your courage and the love you have for your wife. Go to the church. I would imagine that an annulment can be granted somehow. I personally have to believe that the church can figure this out. Christ himself forgave all of your sins, as well as mine. Can’t the church do any less?
There are many self-righteous here who are great pointing out the sins of others. Christian’s, at times, forget that Our Lord demanded forgiveness. “Let you who are without sin, cast the first stone”. I’m sure the Holy Spirit will prompt you and your wife to the best path. God Bless, be at peace!

 

[Maria1212]

I agree with the above posters that the OP should discuss this with his priest. I would like to add, that I think it was unnecessary to criticize some of the replies as self-righteous when the poster was trying to accurately convey Church teaching. None of us are experts, which is why we should seek counsel from priests on important matters. But when someone comes to a Catholic Forum seeking a response from the Catholic perspective, they should expect an honest answer without any sugar coating.

There are many people in similar positions as OP, and it is not our place to judge them. At the same time, when asked, it is our duty to give the most accurate response to the best of our ability.

Sometimes the most honest answer is the most painful. While we should be compassionate, the gravity of the matter should not be watered down. I think all of the people who chose to respond, had the OPs best interests at heart, and therefore, were far from self-righteous. If we cant expect our fellow Catholics to tell us the “truth” on Catholic teaching, who will?

OP, I will keep you and your family in my prayers. Please seek the advice of your priest on this important matter.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[LilyM]

Henry, I found something that is legitimate. I have found precedent in just one day of research on this matter and you are casting stones. What gives? I really feel sorry for the individuals who do not have the where with all to research the truth and end up believing close minded individuals. Who are you to say what is politically correct in the Catholic Church? According to the article I quoted we have a Bishop who recognizes internal forum solution. Perhaps you may want to research the New Code of Canon Law before proclaiming a Bishop of the Church as politically incorrect. HMMMMM…

Lilly, As far as I understand it said that “if a priest is unavailable for a length of time a couple can marry by exchanging consent before witnesses alone”. Since the church did not want to annul my wifes previous marriage in the diocese that I attended I would definately have to say that there was not a priest available for a length of time. As a matter of fact its been seven years now and I still have not found a priest to marry my wife and I.

I think the real issue here is not the letter of the law but rather the spirit of the law. Ask yourself, what is a woman to do if her husband abandons her and she falls in love years later with another man. Should she truly live a live of celibacy because the man she married broke his vow before God and her?

I would say unequivocally “NO”. It makes sense to me that our church leaders would leave an out for special circumstances. Jesus is all forgiving and surely he would not condemn my wife for falliing in love with me and marrying me after she was abandoned by her former husband. That really does not sound like the Jesus I have come to know in my life. I firmly believe that he wants me to continue with my Catholicism and to participate in the Holy Eucharist as I travel through this life in search of EVERLASTING LIFE with the Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior.

Cb, seriously here. She vowed before God to have no partner but her first husband while they both were alive. Through good times and bad, sickness and health, riches and poverty. What part of that sounds like an ‘out’ to you?

Marriage is intended to be a lifelong committment, she knew this, she made that commitment. She vowed it to God, not just her husband. You think God is happy for her to break her promise to Him??? Course He isn’t!

She, and every divorced person whose spouse is still alive, and every single person who never marries (which I am) can and must live a life of celibacy. Regardless of what her husband has done, regardless of whether I’m unmarried because I choose not to be or because I simply have the bad luck never to find a willing man. Because being faithful to one’s promises to God is WAY more important than a physical relationship.

Did the Jesus you know say to the woman caught in adultery ‘well, it’s OK if your husband leaves you’? ‘It’s OK if he’s unfaithful to you’? No sir, he just said GO AND SIN NO MORE! Because it IS sin regardless.

A priest won’t marry you? Of course not, a priest COULDN’T possibly marry you. That provision is talking about when a priest is UNAVAILABLE - unable to PHYSICALLY be present to bless the marriage. NOT cases where a priest refuses to marry a couple. There are many valid reasons why a priest might refuse, and his doing so doesn’t give the couple leave to marry each other without him.

Otherwise every brother who wanted to marry his sister or mother who wanted to marry her son could claim, as you do, that it’s the church’s fault for refusing to condone their relationship.

 

[cheese_sdc]

Sorry Cheese…the close minded comment was meant for LILLY

No problem.

 

[marybee]

I think she should try again for the anullment. I know people who attempted several times. This MAN obviously never intended a lifelong comitment, that should be grounds right there. So anyway, you still have responsibilities to your NOW family, your son, your “wife” etc. You need to rectify the situation, encourage your wife to seek an annullment.

 

[Greg27]

Divorce is a very agonising social problem in Western society, and about half of all marriages end in divorce.

Christian marriage in the Catholic church is meant to be indissoluble. This means even if a civil divorce is granted, one cannot re-marry (unless one spouse dies). This law is designed to ensure people don’t leave each other for selfish reasons. This is a real problem in the civil law since ‘no-fault’ divorce was introduced in many Western countries, with accompanying catastrophic social consequences.

As a result, many people, including Christians find themselves remarrying, as do non-Christians, and having new families. The CC however is clearly reluctant to change this teaching on the permanence of a sacramental marriage because of the concern if it is loosened, the occurence of divorce will increase and the already imperiled institution of marriage will be further weakened.

Justice in terms of the proper laws is a difficult question both for the theologian, the jurist, the politician, and the philosopher. The rule of Jesus is compassion but the Church is also an institution with laws and rules, just as secular society also has institutions and laws. The laws of the church in regard to marry differ from the secular laws of marriage in most Western countries, though the church expects the faithful to adhere both to canon and civil law. In cases where the civil law conflicts with canon law or what the church teaches, we have a very difficult situation which can involve the conflict between what the church teaches and demands of the believer and individual conscience. There is a lot of debate in theology as to where conscience takes precedence over obligations to canon laws, but my own view is if one could not follow one or several laws or teachings of the church the faithful are required to follow, then the only two options a catholic has are either to not take part in the eucharist or to leave the church altogether.

You need to reflect on this carefully, with your wife and your pastor, and decide which course you can accept in good conscience.

 

[deb1]

Sorry, for many of the responses. I commend your courage and the love you have for your wife. Go to the church. I would imagine that an annulment can be granted somehow. I personally have to believe that the church can figure this out. Christ himself forgave all of your sins, as well as mine. Can’t the church do any less?
There are many self-righteous here who are great pointing out the sins of others. Christian’s, at times, forget that Our Lord demanded forgiveness. “Let you who are without sin, cast the first stone”. I’m sure the Holy Spirit will prompt you and your wife to the best path. God Bless, be at peace!

no one is being rude or judgmental. yes, christ can forgive him. no one here has suggested otherwise.

but the fact remains that right and wrong does not depend on our feelings. the poster asked us what he should do. his situation is very hard but i am certain that god will give him the strength to do what is right.

if his wife’s marriage has not been annuled by the church then he is not married. that is it. the kindest thing to do in this situation is not to tell him to follow his heart. instead, he should start the process of annulement. spend a lot of time in prayer with his wife and, for awhile, stop having marital relations.

chef boy my prayers are with you in this situation. you obviously want to do what is right.

 

[deb1]

Well, not having sex with my wife would be like asking a priest to stop loving God the Father. So please, try and be informative rather than make a mockery of my marriage. My marriage is real. When you tell me I should stop having sex with my wife that is basically saying that my children are illegitamate and therefore I never should have had them. As for the comment about being trivial with hell my response would be for the community to stop being trivial with my family and the condemnation that the church is placing on my wife and I.

If someone could provide references to the bible where it dictates that I am living in sin that would be rather useful, otherwise please refrain from making comments without supporting evidence. I would think that any normal and reasonable individual would find that fair, dont you?

i think that the problem is that you want to do what is right, except give up having sex. you have my understanding. my hubby is in afghanistan so i understand how hard being celibate is. this would especially be trying if your loved one is physically present.

but let me ask you,if your wife had a physical condition that meant that she could not have sex, would you suddenly leave her. probably not. you would find the inner strength to deal with your situation and you would probably find a way to do so without making your wife feel guilty.

other people have had annulments granted. chances are eventually that you will too. so that you will both be able to eventually resume the marital embrace.

think also of the message that you and your wife are sending to one another by abstaining. you are saying that your love for one another is so great that you would stick together even without sex. i truly believe that god will give you both the grace and strenght neccessary to over come this situation.

 

[Mjae]

Dear Chefboy

My circumstances were somewhat similar to yours. I returned to the Church several years after my marriage in a civil ceremony. My husband was also unable to get an annulment. We had 2 children by then. I was able to receive to receive a special dispensation to allow me to receive the sacraments because I wanted to be part of the Church and there was no other recourse I could take to achieve this. The main difference I can see here is that my husband was not Catholic and your wife is. Possibly this is something you could discuss with your priest. Good luck.

 

[laudamus_te]

As for the comment about being trivial with hell my response would be for the community to stop being trivial with my family and the condemnation that the church is placing on my wife and I.

I’m sorry, what I said was in response to your joking that maybe you should have continued partying. But you are wrong to be placing the blame for your situation on the Church. It is not condemning you, you have acted with free will to act against the Church’s teaching and it seems that now you are asking the Church to fix it for you:

So I have to convince the Church to recognize my marriage. If you know of any doctrine that will help me do this then why dont you share it with me rather then condemn my marriage and berate me as a man dragging around my wife in “SIN”.

You can’t convince the Church of anything! You must accept the teachings of the Church, or else go your way. It is a bitter pill to swallow. I can understand your reaction to what you have been seeing posted here, but you must realize that no one is judging you. We are simply relating to you what the Church teaches. If you came hoping to have people tell you just what you want to hear, rather than the truth, you came to the wrong place.

I think the real issue here is not the letter of the law but rather the spirit of the law. Ask yourself, what is a woman to do if her husband abandons her and she falls in love years later with another man. Should she truly live a live of celibacy because the man she married broke his vow before God and her?

I would say unequivocally “NO”. It makes sense to me that our church leaders would leave an out for special circumstances.

I’m sorry, but it is an unequivocal YES. It doesn’t matter what makes sense to you, we don’t make up the rules to suit ourselves. I have no idea what you mean by “spirit of the law.” Really, you are in a desperate situation and you are trying to mold the Church’s teachings to make it easy for yourself. I will pray that you will have the strength and courage to accept the cross that God has given you, and proceed to rectify your situation in line with the Church.

 

[Chefboy]

I would like to thank everyone that has responded to my question. It is very interesting to see the different perspectives on how we all interpret the Laws of the Church. In black and white you can make a case for anything in life but in reality there are too many variables to pass judgement and pidgeon hole every similar event.

As I have read the comments it has become obvious to me that many of the respondants are adamant about this issue and I have to ask myself why? Is it because many of the respondants are celibate for their own personal reasons and would like to know that there are many more who must carry that cross with them?

I will have my wifes previous marriage annuled on our next attempt. I say this to you without a doubt in my mind as I will be at the forefront of this annulment and not my wife. I will not allow a priest to question her in a way that makes her cry and feel as though she has sinned. There has been too much of that in the past two attempts. My wife did not comit the sin here. Her husband left her for another woman. It is beyond ant rational thought process that she should live a life of misery because of his selfish act. The past attempts at annulment have never made it past TRADITIONAL PRIESTS. This time I will lead the charge and make sure my wifes case reaches a TRIBUNAL where I have no doubt any rational man will nullify the marriage. In my heart I know this as I believe Jesus wants it as much as we do.

My marriage is very real whether the Catholic Church wants to recognize it or not. As for those of you who profess to be Catholics but have dificulty finding forgiveness in your hearts I will be the one praying for you. It is truly amazing how clouded minds can become while living in lives of celibacy. For me, all I have to do is look at the children playing at my feet and know that Jesus wants them to be a part of his family.

As for the topics location, it is where it is today because it deals with Traditional Catholic Laws. We live in a society that is ever changing. Keeping this in mind it is important to realize that Jesus would understand our perils in modern day life better then we ourselves do.

Thank you all for finally giving me the courage and wisdom I was looking for concerning this important topic. Through your words I now have a better understanding of what I am dealing with. If we had to make an analogy I guess it would be similar to a “Jury Selection”. There are just some people you dont want making decisions about your life. As for the people who were more rational with their responses I thank you and know that you are truly inspired by Jesus in your comments.

I will report back to everyone with the final outcome of this ordeal.

 

[deb1]

chef boy, you mention forgiveness but none of us here have anything to forgive you for. you’ve done nothing to anyone here. we just sincerly wish you well.

i honestly don’t understand why you are upset. is briefly going without sex for a short time that horrible.

please do keep in touch with us. we all really wish you well.