Am I going to Hell for being a Father?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Chefboy
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
If its really so easy for you to believe this then please explain why there is so much argument within the church itself. ie. Some people can get an anulment in one diocese but not in the diocese they live in. As I have said before my wife never made it to a tribunal with her anulment as the diocese where she initially inquired rejected her. By the way this was in a different country. I only bring that up as I have been told that she will have a much better chance of getting the marriage annuled here in the United States which I fully intend to pursue. Until then I will use internal forum as my guiding light. By the way I am not a Chef. My son was asking me to make him Chef Boyardee when I had to pick a name; but thank you for your prayers although they are misguided.
I totally agree with you there. The process is broken down in this country. That your wife was denied in another country really helps clear some things up for me. “Chef Boyardee” that is one of the funniest screen name stories I’ve heard! 👍 What a sweet inspiration in your precious son. He is a gift from God, no matter what anyone tries to say.

But hey there now, prayers are never misguided. Your name caught my eye and inspired my heart. The Church is flawless, her members, me included are not. What you are witnessing here in this thread and in the different diocese are Her members arguing about interpretation of Truth. But She, Herself, does hold authentic Truth. That I can promise You. (I am betting my eternal soul on it.) But we are fallible humans, (and sometimes we are stubborn, and uncharitable too.)

The Truth is there. I know when I was in a painful place in my life it could have been staring me in the face and I still would have ignored it. That was my problem though, not the Church’s. Please feel free to PM me if you want to talk about this in a less harried environment. You have got a lot going on here. When things get like this for me I find a lot of peace in Confession, Mass, and Eucharistic Adoration. It always puts my heart at peace.

Still praying for you Mr. Boyardee!
 
Sorry, for many of the responses. I commend your courage and the love you have for your wife. Go to the church. I would imagine that an annulment can be granted somehow. I personally have to believe that the church can figure this out. Christ himself forgave all of your sins, as well as mine. Can’t the church do any less? Where has anyone suggested that his sins are not forgiven? But let us not forget that Christ also said go and sin no more. Further the Church does not forgive sins–Christ forgives sins working through the preist in confession.
There are many self-righteous here who are great pointing out the sins of others. Christian’s, at times, forget that Our Lord demanded forgiveness. “Let you who are without sin, cast the first stone”. Again he also said go and sin no more–let us no forget that part of the equation. No one is condemning him–they are simply pointing out Church teaching. And advising what the Church teaches. Is this easy–no but Christ didn’t promise that the road would be easy.
 
My point was that it seems like some here are telling this poor fellow he is heading directly to perdition. I found this somewhat distressing as it seems to completely lack compassion.

There seems to be a disturbing lack of compassion here combined with a harsh and shrill judgementalism. No-one can be expected to be perfect; in fact I am tending to find instead of great joy at being a Catholic, my faith is being destroyed by the hardness of heart and the hatred I am seeing in so many others, towards other Christians, towards those of other religions, and even towards Catholics who are lapsed.

I don’t think I want to be a part of such a church, or for a forum like that, where one feels no peace, no welcome, no acceptance, and no rest, and no sense that God is present as mercy and love, and instead we are doomed to hell because we don’t live up to an external standard of the law or holiness which for one reason or another we can’t live up to.
I am sorry you feel that way. People come to the forum and ask a question. They receive a response about what the Church teaches and what a proper response would be in light of that teaching. Yet that is not often what they want to hear–so the posters who have responded are attacked as uncaring, unfeeling, condemning and unwelcoming. God is mercy and God is justice–all of us are sinners–but what we must be trying to do is live Gods will as it has been revealed to us–no matter how hard that is. Sure we will all fall. Some of us wake up one day and realize we have been living a lie or not in accordance with revealed truth and thats not easy and it may call for tough changes. We go to hell for being obstinate in our sin, for knowingly and definantly turning our backs on God–not for earnestly trying to love God and follow him and of couse falling–that we will all do.
These forums are a place to get answers not to hear what we want to hear and to be told our particular pet sin is ok. Those earnestly seeking answers or help do find acceptance and compassion.
 
1.Is it easier to obtain the annulment at the church or diocese my wife was married in?
  1. What exact paperwork should she ask for?
  2. If you have any experience on how to get this done in a timely manner that would be beneficial.
Chef, I am just starting the process. My wife and I talked to my parish priest and told him the situation. He gave me a six page packet and asked me to fill it out. He helped me figure out what to say. Also, he signed the packet without it being filled out and told me to just mail it to the diocese.

Regarding cost, he said at the end of the process I would receive an answer and an indication of what it “cost”, but the cost was a suggested donation. I could give it, give more, give less, or give nothing at all - it didn’t matter.

You are obviously intelligent. May I suggest you use that intelligence to gain control of the situation, minimizing the emotion in it. This will help your wife get through the process and help the priest guide you and your wife.

God bless you. Good luck and remember to come back and tell us about your experience.
 
I have carefully considered this incident and I discussed it at some length with a chaplain at the local branch of Notre Dame. He has helped ease my concerns, so I will not leave the church.

I do agree with the Church’s magesterium that divorce between baptised Christians is wrong, and is totally prohibited. That was not an issue for me.

What did thoroughly anger and disgust me was that a sinner was writing this thread probably because his conscience, even as a lapsed Catholic, was urging him to seek reconciliation with the Church and God. This is probably why he was prompted to come here and ask such a question.

Fear of offending God is a good thing, which was why he asked the question in terms that he did.

Yet upon approaching the Church, ‘Good’ Catholics who follow the Law of the Church with considerable rigor seemed to throw stones at this man and his ‘sinful’ way of life and, speaking in the name of Christ, behaved as if he was already totally and completely lost.

What was so angering for me was not that people were pointing out what was against church teaching (which any Catholic must do) but with the self-righetousness of some people who, because they seemed to feel they were on ‘good terms’ with God, they had the right to stand in the place of Jesus and say Jesus will send this man and people like him right to hell. This assumes this man would never have reconciled himself with God right up to the very end, when Church teaching is very clearly God’s grace is especially evident as soon as people make a change of heart (metanoia) and decide to begin to turn from sin and towards God, which this man seems to be doing in seeking out the church and possibile reconciliation with him.

I found it extremely disgusting, offensive, faith-destroying and infuriating this man, instead of being welcomed back to the church, and encouraged to seek further reconciliation with God through the church, was simply instead met with anger, hate, accusations for being disobedient to the ‘Law’ which as he said himself, were driving him away from the Church. This man seemed to be given little encouragement to trust in God’s mercy, avail himself to the beautiful sacrament of confession as soon as possible, and to speak to a priest about how he can live a good Catholic life again without remaining in a state of living which contradicts the church’s teaching on marriage, but will allow him to be a good father to his children.

It is vital never to forget God’s justice but as St Therese of Lisiuex reminded us, God’s justice is coloured by his love and mercy which ‘reaches to the heavens.’ If we approach God total fear as someone who only wants to send all of us to hell as soon as possible, and we encourage that view to someone who needs or is desperately seeking reconciliation to the Church, we foster a terrible and awful despair, which is also a grave sin.

But the worst sin of all is a Pharisee-type approach to sinners who are seeking God and the church which turns them away because they are not ‘holy’ enough or ‘good’ enough for us and the church. Such an approach is so contrary to the Gospel itself it should be self-evident. We ourselves were sinners before baptism and only made holy by God’s grace and justified by God’s grace, not by our works. God’s grace (given to us through the sacraments) is what makes us, all sinners falling short of the glory of God, holy, not our works, which don’t make us holy. That is why it is so important to never make *anyone * who is seeking reconciliation with the Church or God, in any form, no matter how disguised, despair at receiving God’s grace, even if they seem to be ‘obstinate’ sinners. Sometimes it takes a lot of patience and time for someone to make a change of heart, but the fact this fellow even started this thread is enough to me to indicate the path to reconciliation to God had begun.

I certainly do pray and hope he has not lost faith in the church because of the disgraceful Phariseeism that has been showed to him here, in particular.
 
To this effect, two of the canons of the Council of Trent come to mind here:

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON XXIX.-If any one saith, that he, who has fallen after baptism, is not able by the grace of God to rise again; or, that he is able indeed to recover the justice which he has lost, but by faith alone without the sacrament of Penance, contrary to what the holy Roman and universal Church-instructed by Christ and his Apostles-has hitherto professed, observed, and taugh; let him be anathema.
 
Hey Greg, I just wanted to say that when I read through this whole thread a couple days ago I remember no actual damnations of his soul. I remember a couple warnings of possible damnation if he were to choose mortal sin as a new life style.

This thread may have been the motivation for several threads on the moral theology board about “getting accused if being judgmental for telling Catholic truths”.
Basically everyone agrees that we judge sins not sinners. And in this case, it’s judging a sinful lifestyle, which still is not judging a person. (like telling someone that being a prostitute would be a sinful lifestyle - doesn’t mean all prostitutes are damned to hell)

If a Catholic informs someone that choosing a lifestyle of:
  1. repeatedly committing adultery
  2. then receiving the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin
    will put their soul in peril…I don’t see that as evil or judgmental. There is no more judgment than saying, “Hey did you know that dying with a moral sin really will doom a soul to hell?”
Are Catholics no longer to acknowledge Hell as real?

Certainly no one wished him there. Certainly no one said he will go there. A few people strongly warned him that he’s playing with fire and reminded him that hell’s a reality and people do get burned.
 
I am glad to have found this forum. The validity of my marriage has always bothered me as I have known that the church does not recognize it. Like I said before, I had somewhat compartmentalized this in my mind in order to rear my children as Catholics and to participate in The Holy Eucharist. The Feast of Corpus Christi this past Sunday reminded me that the Church does not recognize the marriage and that I should not be receiving Holy Communion which is a means to Everlasting Life.

So I have to convince the Church to recognize my marriage. If you know of any doctrine that will help me do this then why dont you share it with me rather then condemn my marriage and berate me as a man dragging around my wife in “SIN”.
You’ve certainly got a strong case that, given the current situation, the best thing you can do is remain with your present partner and family set up.

However can you see what underlies it? Anyone can walk out on anyone else, and as long as they have a child by the next person, it is fait accompli and the Church must accept it.

Sometimes what seems like the immediate best option has to be sacrificed for the long term collective good. However it is not hypocritical to say “this teaching is too hard for me to accept”, whilst not rejecting the whole.
 
I certainly do pray and hope he has not lost faith in the church because of the disgraceful Phariseeism that has been showed to him here, in particular.
Dear Greg, I hope you can read the answers all again and see that no one ever condemned this man. No what I read anyway.
To confirm others in evil is a mortal sin itself.
The existence of Truth and sin and heaven and hell can sometimes be too much to take but they are real nonetheless and we need to be reminded.
Jesus is good to all, and we are sinners all of us but that does not mean we can condone evil.
May the Sacred Heart of Jesus have mercy on us and may the Immaculate Heart of Mary be our refuge.

btw Phariseism is Judaism today for those who don’t know and we don’t want to be Anti-Semitic do we?

Accusing others of Phariseeism and the like seem to me to be proximate to rash judgement wich is a sin. And please don’t quote the canons of Trent to this man then he might get really scared, and we don’t want to scare anyone away from the Church do we?.

Peace and all good.
 
A point of clarification - the Church cannot annul a marriage. Either there was never a marriage to begin with, or the marriage is for life. Jesus said, “What God has put together” ( that is, if there is a marriage) no one can wrest asunder (no one also includes the divorce court judge and also every member of the Marriage Tribunal - again, they cannot break a marriage, if it exists).

Only if these occurred before the wedding took place. They do not look at anything that happened after the wedding (because the vow says "for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, etc. - which includes every bad thing that happens after the wedding), unless it points to the situation of the wedding itself - for example, if one of them is found to be an alcoholic after the wedding, then they would look to see whether that person had become an alcoholic before the wedding took place (in which case the person was not competent to make marriage vows) or did this occur after the wedding - in which case it comes under “in sickness and in health,” as part of the vows that were taken.
usually if there is adultry after the marriage then it probably means it was happening before the marriage too and the husband or wife just didn’t tell them… From my experience of what ive seen is that people who commit adultry commit both before and after the marriage, since it is just their nature…
 
usually if there is adultry after the marriage then it probably means it was happening before the marriage too and the husband or wife just didn’t tell them… From my experience of what ive seen is that people who commit adultry commit both before and after the marriage, since it is just their nature…
That’s possible. But it would be incorrect to say that a person could get an annulment because their spouse committed adultery on them during the marriage.

Instead, to be more accurate, we would have to say that a Declaration of Nullity could be granted (because the Church can’t give annulments - it can only give Declarations of Nullity), if it turned out that at the time of the wedding, the person did not fully understand that marriage is an exclusive bond between husband and wife that cannot be shared with others, even in secret - if he thought that as long as his wife never found out about his affairs, then her feelings would never be hurt, and therefore it would not be harmful to do that, then the Tribunal would find that he didn’t have the proper understanding of marriage, and thus, no actual marriage took place at that time - it is Null (meaning, it never happened). They would write a declaration saying that they had discovered it to be Null, and she could remarry.

They would probably also make a note on the file that the man has to learn more about what a marriage is, before he can be allowed to remarry, so that he doesn’t do the same thing to the next person.
 
Look above.

Stop mocking God, and stop offending Him through sin.

All it takes to get to hell is one unrepented mortal sin on your conscience. Just read the CCC.

The opposite of sin is grace and the love of God.

You really need Jesus.
:rolleyes: I think Henry is having Selective Memory.
 
This as wrong as when politicians say they are personally opposed to abortion but they vote for it.

Marriage is a public institution and a sacrament and is governed by laws of the Church. You cannot have recourse to the internal forum without seeking to establish the truth in the external forum.
These kinds of “pastoral solutions” are putting people in danger of everlasting hell-fire.
You cannot entirely kill the voice of God (your conscience) that’s why you felt this way upon hearing the sermon.

You are facing a choice put before you by God.

I’ll pray for you.
“Christianity has not been tried and found wanting it may have been found hard and been left untried.”
Actually I would never want to kill the voice of God. :eek: I have my own relationship with God as I hope you do.
 
😉
Dear Chefboy,
I’m not trying to cast stones I’m just trying to make some things clearer for you. there was some debate in the Church about so called internal forum solutions during the 90’s they were cleared up by the intervention of the pope himself.
In his speeches to the Roman Rota he several times clearly condemned these practices as opposd to the truth. You can do a research on these in just some minutes if you don’t believe me.
I will pray for you because you need strenght in the situation that you are in.

Peace and all good.

In 1995, the pope addressed the Tribunal of the Roman Rota. The Rota acts, among other things, as the highest appeals court in marriage/nullity cases. Here are some excerpts from the pope’s directives:

"4. … it is helpful … to call the attention of ecclesiastical tribunals to the unacceptable consequences resulting from erroneous doctrinal approaches, which have negative repercussions on the administration of justice and, in a particular and even more serious way, on the handling of cases of marital nullity. …

"8. … An action deviating from the objective norm or law is thus morally reprehensible and must be considered as such: while it is true that humans must act in conformity with the judgment of their own conscience, it is equally true that the judgment of conscience cannot claim to establish the law. It can only recognize it and make it its own.

"9. While maintaining the distinction between the magisterial and jurisdictional functions, certainly in ecclesial society the judicial power also emanates from the more general ‘potestas regiminis,’ which in fact belongs to the Church by divine institution (c. 129, ?1), and is divided into three, namely, the ‘legislative, executive and judicial’ (c. 135, ?1). Therefore, whenever doubts arise as to the conformity of an act ?- for example, in the specific case of a marriage ?- with the objective norm, and consequently, the lawfulness or even the validity itself of such an act is called into question, reference must be made to the judgment correctly emanating from legitimate authority (cf. c. 135, ?3), and not to an alleged private judgment, and still less to the individual?s arbitrary conviction. This principle, also formally safeguarded by canon law, establishes:

"‘Even though the previous marriage is invalid or for any reason dissolved, it is not thereby lawful to contract another marriage before the nullity or the dissolution of the previous one has been established lawfully and with certainty’ (c. 1085, ?2).

"Whoever would presume to transgress the legislative provisions concerning the declaration of marital nullity would thus put himself outside, and indeed in a position antithetical to the Church?s authentic magisterium and to canonical legislation itself ?- a unifying and in some ways irreplaceable element for the unity of the Church. This principle applies to whatever involves not only substantive law, but also procedural legislation. This fact must be kept in mind in concrete cases and care should be taken to avoid answers and solutions ‘in foro interno,’[in the internal forum] as it were, to situations that are perhaps difficult but which can be dealt with and resolved only by respecting the canonical norms in force. This must be kept in mind particularly by pastors who may be tempted to distance themselves in substance from the established and approved procedures of the Code.

“Everyone should be reminded of the principle that, although the diocesan bishop has been granted the faculty to dispense, under specific conditions, from disciplinary laws, he is not permitted however to dispense ‘from procedural laws’ (c. 87, ?1).”

[The full text is at http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1995/february
/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19950210_roman-rota_en.html ]

Henry,

Please dont discourage people from providing specific detailed information. That is exactly what I seek. Just as you provided information above in reference to Internal Forum Solution. This is exactly the type diolouge I seek. It helps with our research and that is exactly why we are having this discussion.

Lets just try to keep the personal judgements to ourselves. Fair Enough.
 
I have been going back and forth over my situation and thats exactly why I can not rest until I get answers. This evening it was explained to me that when Jesus gave Peter the keys to the Church he said the gates of Hades will never prevail. (as I already knew).
The individual explaining Church doctrine, dogma, and tradition to me explained that Jesus never said the church was infallible as this would have been a lie. Jesus certainly was not a liar.

What Jesus meant by the gates of Hades not prevailing is that he would not allow the Devil to influence the church teachings and traditions. So I replied, how do you account for bad priests, the dark ages etc. My friend then asked me if mistakes were ever made in the church when Jesus was on Earth. I thought surely not, but then he explained Judus’ betrayl of Jesus and how Judus went on to kill himself. The point being that even when Jesus was alive here on earth there were mistakes being made in the church but that he does not allow mistakes in dogma.

My understanding is that Jesus inspires dogma and since Jesus did not lie to Peter when he told him he would give him the keys to the church then he certainly would not allow Peter or any of his successors to bring false dogma or even tradition to the church.

Even in the Dark Ages, the Inquisiton etc…No Pope made any dogma which is with the Church today.

So now I have a better understanding of my situation. I still do not like it any more then before but at least I know I am in a bad situation when it comes to following the Church Teachings. I can deal with being in a bad situation as a man since I now have a better understanding of the churches authority and where it comes from.

Henry, I have seen your posts on other threads and you certainly seem to have a good understanding of Catholocism. Perhaps you might go alittle easier on us sinners in the future. It has a tendency to really ruffle ones feathers. I now know you meant well though. Its all good!

Tailwinds and Peace
 
Dear Chefboy,

My posts on sin are equally applicable to all of us and they were not intended for for you alone.I can be quite blunt sometimes, I know that’s a flaw-and I’m working on it.

I’ll keep praying for you and I’ll offer my communion for you today.

Peace and all good.

I hope to see you in heaven. 🙂
 
Dear Chefboy,

Your situation seems quite difficult and obviously there is no easy solution, i will definitely keep you in my prayers. It seems that you are on the right track to resolving your problem, as your are asking for advise and seem anxious about your spiritual life. Just a little bit of advice, continue this path of spiritual discernment, remembering how much god loves you and wants your salvation, he will do anything to have you safely back into his arms and i’m sure that you too will do anything to return to your God’s loving heart. Let you love for Him prevail over all things, and trust in his providence.

love your brother
 
I have been going back and forth over my situation and thats exactly why I can not rest until I get answers. This evening it was explained to me that when Jesus gave Peter the keys to the Church he said the gates of Hades will never prevail. (as I already knew).
The individual explaining Church doctrine, dogma, and tradition to me explained that Jesus never said the church was infallible as this would have been a lie. Jesus certainly was not a liar.
Hi Chefboy. I’m not sure what your friend meant by the Church not being infallible-- She certainly is infallible in her teachings (that is, doctrine and dogma are indeed free from error). The fact that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide the Church does actually mean that the Church cannot teach error in matters of faith and morals. I think perhaps your friend meant that the members and leaders of the Church would not be impeccable (that is, free from sin).
40.png
chefboy:
What Jesus meant by the gates of Hades not prevailing is that he would not allow the Devil to influence the church teachings and traditions. So I replied, how do you account for bad priests, the dark ages etc. My friend then asked me if mistakes were ever made in the church when Jesus was on Earth. I thought surely not, but then he explained Judus’ betrayl of Jesus and how Judus went on to kill himself. The point being that even when Jesus was alive here on earth there were mistakes being made in the church but that he does not allow mistakes in dogma.
Yes, it seems your friend did indeed mean that the Church leaders are not impeccable. Every leader of the Church has sinned, from Peter on down to the priests in our parishes today.
40.png
chefboy:
My understanding is that Jesus inspires dogma and since Jesus did not lie to Peter when he told him he would give him the keys to the church then he certainly would not allow Peter or any of his successors to bring false dogma or even tradition to the church.

Even in the Dark Ages, the Inquisiton etc…No Pope made any dogma which is with the Church today.
I think this is misstated. No Pope has declared any dogma which is NOT still with the Church today. In other words, any doctrine or dogma which has been taught by the Church before is still taught by the Church today.

The Dark Ages are another thread altogether, although I will state here that the Church was just about the only light and continuing source of Truth in those otherwise very dark times; she was not the source nor the cause of said darkness.
40.png
chefboy:
So now I have a better understanding of my situation. I still do not like it any more then before but at least I know I am in a bad situation when it comes to following the Church Teachings. I can deal with being in a bad situation as a man since I now have a better understanding of the churches authority and where it comes from.
Praise God that you are willing to find and accept the Truth in this matter, even though it is indeed a hard truth to accept. May God continue to bless you with perseverance and strength to live according to His will.
 
There are some occasions, like Chefboy (you said you filed it away though, but didn’t really look into it much)

But there are some Catholics out there that are married a 2nd time, then they hear at some sermon for the first time in their life and sa, “WHAT? I’m living in sin, I did not know that!”

And then freak out and listen with utter disbelief when they hear things like “You must stop having sex with your wife” which personally I think is a joke. While we’re at it, let’s unscramble all the eggs at breakfast time as well.

I guess some Catholics are better off NOT knowing.
 
Thank you Henry, I appreciate your offering. That is very generous! I did go to mass this morning and it was spiritually painful not to receive Holy Communion.

It was additionally painful to have my little boy ask why we were not going to Communion. I just told him that I had committed a sin. He just said, “Daddy its OK , the priest has enough for everyone”.

Once again, Thank you for your offering.

Have a Good Week.

Tailwinds and Peace
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top