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followingtheway
Guest
If I disagree with priestly-celibacy and an all-male priesthood. Would that be considered heresy? And be straight up with me, please.
- Status
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jwinch2
Guest
Regarding priestly celibacy, it is a discipline of the Church which does not reach doctrinal level. You will notice that Eastern Catholics as well as those coming into the Catholic Church through the Anglican Ordinariates can be married prior to their ordination.
As for the rest:
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html
ewtn.com/library/curia/cdfrespo.htm
What do you think?
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1ke
Guest
Priestly celibacy is a discipline of the Latin Rite. It is not doctrinal. You are therefore free to “agree” with it or not. However, in disagreeing, you must still respect the authority of the Church on the matter. The Church has the authority to set this discipline in the Latin Rite, and it is incumbent upon you to read and understand why it does so.
The priesthood is a doctrinal matter. The male priesthood is infallibly taught, so no you cannot “disagree” with it. Assent of the faith is required on this matter.
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manualman
Guest
Not all sin is heresy. I THINK heresy is the obstinate refusal to abandon (and stop spreading) erroneous opinions about God and His relationship with humanity as revealed to us in Scripture and Tradition. I’m not sure that your own private opinion (held to yourself) contrary to church teaching that Jesus calls only men to Holy Orders constitutes heresy, but it might well be sinfully stubborn.
On the other hand if you are asserting that Jesus was a mysoginist for only selecting men to be his apostles (priests), then that might actually rise to the level of heresy since you would be impugning the character of God. But I doubt you’re doing that, are you?
On the other hand if you are asserting that Jesus was a mysoginist for only selecting men to be his apostles (priests), then that might actually rise to the level of heresy since you would be impugning the character of God. But I doubt you’re doing that, are you?
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Semper_Zelare
Guest
From the website I go to for examination of conscience:
“Heresy is obstinate post-baptismal denial of a truth that must be believed with divine and Catholic faith” … this sin strains or breaks the unity with the offender and the Catholic Church.
I would suppose that this is not a “MUST” of the Catholic faith… because that would mean that our ancestors did not have a Catholic faith in the early centuries before this became the norm.
I would like to mention that the vocation of priesthood is rated #1 in terms of happiness, in surveys looking at happiness of people in a career path. Priesthood has consistently been the “happiest profession” for a long time. - According to the Priest magazine. So, it’s not like celibacy makes priests miserable… it sets them apart. Not to mention Proverbs 21:19 …
“Heresy is obstinate post-baptismal denial of a truth that must be believed with divine and Catholic faith” … this sin strains or breaks the unity with the offender and the Catholic Church.
I would suppose that this is not a “MUST” of the Catholic faith… because that would mean that our ancestors did not have a Catholic faith in the early centuries before this became the norm.
I would like to mention that the vocation of priesthood is rated #1 in terms of happiness, in surveys looking at happiness of people in a career path. Priesthood has consistently been the “happiest profession” for a long time. - According to the Priest magazine. So, it’s not like celibacy makes priests miserable… it sets them apart. Not to mention Proverbs 21:19 …
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St_Francis
Guest
What do you mean by this?
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Cbus
Guest
Not at all. There are good arguments for and against priestly celibacy. And as others have said, it is a discipline and not doctrine. What this means is that it is simply the way we do things, but it could change.
Personally, if it were up to me, I’d allow priests to get married, but I would also allow priests, who wish, to take a vow of chastity. My thinking is that it is them who can best decide how they can be most faithful to their promises and duties. But I could be wrong. I’ll leave it up to someone else.
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perro_sarnoso
Guest
Only if you insist on your heretical attitude.
Heresy is mostly a self-imposed condition. Female priests are a pagan tradition and are dominant in pagan religions. Catholicism is not pagan.
So, if on top of being a heretic you also want to incur in paganism…I pray that Jesus knocks you off of your horse before you get to Damascus.
It is better to be blinded by the light and led by another than to say that you see, and really be blind.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
I think the real person you need to ask is your parish priest, don’t you?
Because whether or not your actions are heretical isn’t up to forum members’ ‘majority vote’. (though most people so far have been quite correct in noting what is correct, authentic church teaching on the subjects which you are having difficulty accepting as correct.)
I encourage you to speak to your priest and to ask his help if you need it.
Because whether or not your actions are heretical isn’t up to forum members’ ‘majority vote’. (though most people so far have been quite correct in noting what is correct, authentic church teaching on the subjects which you are having difficulty accepting as correct.)
I encourage you to speak to your priest and to ask his help if you need it.
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Semper_Zelare
Guest
Is there not a certain time period in which priestly celibacy was officially instituted by the Papacy? That’s what I’ve heard by other posters on CAF… so I don’t know the specifics myself. But, I’ve heard that up unto a certain Pope celibacy was a choice (and probably a choice taken up by the majority of priests… but not all). And the Church made this mandatory at a certain point.
So… did the Catholics (in the Latin Rite) who had married priests, or became married priests WAAAY BAACK when… were they not Catholic because of this? No. Just as one Pope made it mandatory… another Pope has authority to change that.
However, I think the priesthood has always been mostly composed of celibate priests, and this will probably always be the case.
To be clear: The Pope has no authority to change the rules about women’s ordination. He couldn’t do it even if he wanted to. [Kind of like how the President of the U.S. can’t close Guantanamo Bay even if he wanted to
]
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Roy5
Guest
This question raises my basic problem with Catholicism. I enjoy and treasure the right to think for myself, and this seems to be discouraged. Yes, within limits it’s permitted, but Pope John Paul II, as I recall, simply put the issue of priestly celibacy off the table. It believe he also is the Pope who shut down the creative writings of Hans Kung.
Code:
I know that some Catholics will accuse me of pride, putting my own views ahead of the position of the Magisterium, etc. They consider it a liberal Protestant idea, that each believer has the right to interpret scripture and doctrine as s/he chooses. This is a convenient way of denying believers true spiritual and intellectual freedom.
I'm quite sure that God respects those who sincerely question teachings and practices of the Church. We should not think of the Church as a totalitarian organization that demands conformity.
Perhaps this makes me a heretic? If so, so be it. I trust in God above all, a God of mercy who loves everybody, of every creed, color, culture and country.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
No, John Paul merely **reiterated the consistent teaching of the Church. Must I remind you that Popes do not CREATE teachings? **
Let’s have an example. Let’s say that you put all your reasoning power to the test and you decide that you simply will not accept the law of gravity. . .and so you walk off the side of the Grand Canyon.
You were quite free to disagree with the law of gravity and to accept the consequences. But since gravity exists, your freedom to disagree has rather tragic consequences.
There exists absolute truth. (and be warned, if you say this does not exist, you yourself are making an absolute statement of denial, in other words, you’re proving my point that such truth exists as there is no way, even if you claim the absolutism of relativism, that the point cannot be argued as correct!)
Therefore, contradicting absolute truth, even if one is free to do so (and we all have free will) carries the consequence.
The consequence is not something that we have dreamed up (or God has dreamed up) as a punishment per se any more than a child who reaches out to touch a hot stove and gets burnt is being meanly ‘punished’ by the stove. The burn is a reaction to the physical reality of hot stove meeting human flesh.
Those who palpitate for the so-called ‘open mind’ and freedom to disagree have no quarrel with the Catholic Church. The Church won’t stop you. It will simply remind you of the consequences of your choices.
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BenedictFTW
Guest
St Paul recommended a single, celibate priesthood. Jesus said to the Apostles that whomsoever left family and homes for His sake would be given a much bigger abundance in Heaven. Sort of suggests a single, celibate priesthood, I would say.Is there not a certain time period in which priestly celibacy was officially instituted by the Papacy? That’s what I’ve heard by other posters on CAF… so I don’t know the specifics myself. But, I’ve heard that up unto a certain Pope celibacy was a choice (and probably a choice taken up by the majority of priests… but not all). And the Church made this mandatory at a certain point.
So… did the Catholics (in the Latin Rite) who had married priests, or became married priests WAAAY BAACK when… were they not Catholic because of this? No. Just as one Pope made it mandatory… another Pope has authority to change that.
However, I think the priesthood has always been mostly composed of celibate priests, and this will probably always be the case.
To be clear: The Pope has no authority to change the rules about women’s ordination. He couldn’t do it even if he wanted to. [Kind of like how the President of the U.S. can’t close Guantanamo Bay even if he wanted to
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Ceil-1
Guest
Gee, where did followingtheway go?
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followingtheway
Guest
I have nothing to say.
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BenedictFTW
Guest
And that is why He sent His only Son to die on the Cross for our sins; it is also why He told us to “Listen to Him!” during the Transfiguration. God now fully expects us ALL to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and His Apostles - carried on in the Deposit of Faith within the Catholic Church - the only Apostolic Church of Christ.
Why would Jesus go through all of that for nothing, if all it takes is for us to be good according to our own designs? What you suggest makes a nonsense of the Sacrifice of Our Blessed Lord. It is up to each and every one of us to FIND OUT the Truth - Jesus is Truth; anyone who seeks it will find Him. And Jesus says that “No one gets to the Father except through Me!” Peace and Truth be with you.
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manualman
Guest
And this is a convenient way of troweling a veneer of christianity on top of a philosophy that runs the gamut from having a few questions on a few doctrines to practicing voodoo after making the sign of the cross.
Within the bounds of reality, freedom is a good and beautiful thing. When people use the slogan of ‘freedom’ to declare falsehood as truth, we have a problem. And I have little patience for those who would claim that such a thing isn’t really going to happen. I have to wonder if such people have windows and doors on their house!
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exoflare
Guest
Which has zero relevance to this topic, but okay…
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livingwordunity
Guest
In the way the Church can allow for some men who are married to become priests, priestly celibacy is a discipline. But in the fact that celibacy has always been taught by the Church to be a higher and preferable calling for a priest, this is a part of the infallible teaching of the ordinary Magisterium.
It’s heresy to obstinately object to the Church’s infallible teaching that only men can be ordained. But if you are willing to trust that the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, has more wisdom that we do and accept this teaching even though it may be hard for you to understand then that would not be heretical.
Think about this. How can we believe that bread and wine turns into the body and blood of Christ by the power that God gives to the Church and at the same time not believe that God would give his Church the power to instruct in matters of faith and morals without error?
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Roy5
Guest
Okay. Church’s infallible teachings? I am a senior who well recalls what a big sin it was for a Catholic to attend worship at a Protestant church. How many family baptisms, weddings and funerals were missed because of this silly teaching. With Vatican II that teaching changed suddenly. So did no meat on Friday (except Lent). Protestants no longer were heretics but separated brothers and sisters. The old movie guide, with condemned films listed every week in *Our Sunday Visitor *(for example) was discarded. Then, of course, the mass was in English and we were singing Martin Luther’s “A Mighty Fortress Is Our God” and many other Protestant hymns. Etc.
Code:
Yes, I know the arguments, but if the Church can make such changes overnight it can make other changes. St. Paul, as I recall, said that a Bishop should have only one wife. St. Peter himself had a mother-in-law (I have visited her home), so he was married. And we could on and on.
My main point is that Catholics today are far-better educated than they have been in the past. They think for themselves. I saw a poll a year or so that 52% do not believe in transubstantiation. A large majority believe priests should be able to marry, and a majority (in the US) believe women should be ordained - at least as Deacons.
Catholicism has lost millions because more and more people honestly question beliefs that were easy to believe when we had poor telescopes and no microscopes, when we believed in demons and a devil roaming the earth, when we viewed destructive natural phenomena as God's punishment, etc. Today we regard many of those primitive and medieval beliefs as superstition. Many more have become cafeteria Catholics. They are C&E Catholics - Christmas and Easter. They are cultural Catholics. But they will not be told by any Church that they must believe what in their minds is unbelievable.
I know this is heresy, but I'm sure God judges us by the two commandments Christ emphasized: love the Lord and love one another. When a lawyer asked Jesus how to enter eternal life he said nothing about doctrine or ritual. He gave the parable of the Good Samaritan, how a 'heretic' (hated by the religious establishment) was the one who stopped while the priest and Levite passed by on the other side. See the last verses of Matt. 25 for more details.
God bless fellow citizens of earth whatever their creed, color, culture or country. If our religion serves as a barrier among us instead of as a bridge we need to reexamine it and ask God for forgiveness and guidance.- Status