Am I still Catholic if I don't always agree with the church?

[TRH1292]

Thanks, I will. I’ve asked several questions in the Ask an Apologist section but they didn’t get answered, so I’ll share my concern here.

My main trouble with Catholic teachings is it says that for one to be saved, it is not enough for him to believe that Jesus paid for our sins past, present, and future. We must do rituals and sacraments, and then there is the concept of mortal and venial sins, and that we must die without mortal sins to be saved using the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

It’s like Jesus’s sacrifice wasn’t complete, as people who believe they were saved by Him yet sinned mortally are still not saved when they pass away. But it’s next to impossible to always be free from sin, isn’t that why Jesus died for us? I’ve read some Catholic responses about this, such as we can choose to throw His gift of salvation away by mortally sinning. But what if that person who mortally sinned genuinely loves God and feels sorry, he just couldn’t help himself? Some people say you don’t really love God if you keep sinning seriously, but, based on experience and reading some articles, you can still have a genuine love for God even when you sin.

Also, I’m divided in the concept of mortal and venial sin. The Bible does not explicitly mention mortal or venial sins, but it does mention that some sins will be punished greater than others. However, it also says that it only takes one sin - no mention if it’s mortal or venial - for one to be damned. Which is which?

I’m sorry if I offended anyone, I know my thoughts are very anti-Catholic and that’s why I want advice. What is your take in this?

Jed,
Just because Christianity is not a license to sin does not mean that Christ’s sacrifice was somehow not complete. Jesus Christ fully redeemed all of mankind on his cross. But only those who accept his grace may belong to him. Actions do not exist separate from the mind. We cannot have the mind of Christ and partake of wickedness and evil. Mortal Sin isn’t just a bad thing somebody does, it is a conscious rejecting of God because God is calling us to holiness through love of God and neighbor. To believe in Jesus truly is not to intellectual assent to certain dogma’s alone, even demons do that (James 2:19), it is to fully commit oneself to the truth of the faith with your mind, body, and soul.

Remember, God never commands the impossible. I urge you to think about these scripture passages:

**Matthew 7:21-23 : “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers."

1 Thessalonians 4:7-8: “For God did not call us to impurity but to holiness.
Therefore, whoever disregards this, disregards not a human being but God, who [also] gives his holy Spirit to you.”

1 Corinthians 6:9-10: “Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Ephesians 5:5: “Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”

1 John 1:6: “If we say, “We have fellowship with him,” while we continue to walk in darkness, we lie and do not act in truth”

1 John 2:4: “Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him”

1 John 3:9-10 “No one who is begotten by God commits sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot sin because he is begotten by God.
In this way, the children of God and the children of the devil are made plain; no one who fails to act in righteousness belongs to God, nor anyone who does not love his brother.”**

These are just a few verses on the subject. The scripture is clear, nobody who partakes in the wickedness of mortal sin will have eternal life, if he does not repent and go to confession.

 

[PSPX]

He who does not embrace the teaching of the Church does not have the Habit of Faith. Neither formed nor formless faith remains in a heretic who disbelieves ONE SINGLE article of Faith. All who deny one article of Faith, regardless of their reason, are by that very fact excommunicated.-St. Thomas Aquinas

If anyone says that baptized persons are freed from all the Precepts of Holy Church, either those contained in Scripture or handed down by Tradition, so that they are not bound to observe them unless of their own accord they wish to submit themselves to these Precepts: Let him be anathema.-Council of Trent

There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the entire cycle of Catholic doctrine and yet, BY A SINGLE WORD, as with a DROP of poison, infect the real and simple faith taught by Our Lord and handed down by Apostolic Tradition. For such is the nature of the Faith that nothing can be more absurd than to accept SOME things and to reject OTHERS. If, then, it be certain that ANY thing is revealed by God, and this is not believed, then NO thing whatever is believed by Divine Faith. But he who dissents even in ONE POINT from divinely-revealed Truth ABSOLUTELY rejects ALL faith. You, who believe what you like of the Gospels, believe yourselves rather than the Gospels. Pope Leo XIII

We must mention another fruitful cause of evil by which the Church is afflicted at present , namely: Indifferentism, that vicious manner of thinking which holds that eternal salvation can be obtained by the profession of any faith, provided that a man’s morals are good and decent. Seriously consider the testimony of the Savior that some are against Christ because they are not with Christ, that they scatter who do not gather with Him, and therefore without doubt they will perish in eternity unless they hold to the Catholic faith and observe it WHOLE and INVIOLATE." Pope Gregory XVI

Hope these help.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Thanks, I will. I’ve asked several questions in the Ask an Apologist section but they didn’t get answered, so I’ll share my concern here.

My main trouble with Catholic teachings is it says that for one to be saved, it is not enough for him to believe that Jesus paid for our sins past, present, and future. We must do rituals and sacraments, and then there is the concept of mortal and venial sins, and that we must die without mortal sins to be saved using the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

It’s like Jesus’s sacrifice wasn’t complete, as people who believe they were saved by Him yet sinned mortally are still not saved when they pass away. But it’s next to impossible to always be free from sin, isn’t that why Jesus died for us? I’ve read some Catholic responses about this, such as we can choose to throw His gift of salvation away by mortally sinning. But what if that person who mortally sinned genuinely loves God and feels sorry, he just couldn’t help himself? Some people say you don’t really love God if you keep sinning seriously, but, based on experience and reading some articles, you can still have a genuine love for God even when you sin.
%
Also, I’m divided in the concept of mortal and venial sin. The Bible does not explicitly mention mortal or venial sins, but it does mention that some sins will be punished greater than others. However, it also says that it only takes one sin - no mention if it’s mortal or venial - for one to be damned. Which is which?

I’m sorry if I offended anyone, I know my thoughts are very anti-Catholic and that’s why I want advice. What is your take in this?

You said in an earlier post that you believe in the Holy Eucharist. Can I assume then you that you believe in the Real Presence, that is, that the bread and wine actually become the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ? Can I also assume thar you believe Jesus when he says “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you cannot have life within you?” These two tenets of our faith, which you appear to believe, trump all the other concerns you have mentioned. This alone should give you all the reason you will ever need to remain a Catholic and not join another denomination while you look for satisfactory answers for your current questions.

Do you remember in the BIble where Jesus gave his apostles the power to forgive sins? “Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.” Why would Jesus give them such a power if all a person had to do was believe in Jesus? That’s why Catholics have the sacrment of Reconciliation. This should make it obvious to you why Catholics are concerned about having their sins forgiven on a continual basis. And the power to do so derives from the merits of that “complete” sacrifice of Jesus’
death on the cross.

There is so much more that can be said, but I hope this helps. You are so lucky becaue you have a religion that really does have all the answers and that’s because it is the one that was established by Jesus himself. I am not saying there are no remaining questions in life, but if a question of faith ans morals can be answered, the Catholic Church ia the one with answer. Hope to talk with you again. James

 

[bzkoss236]

Purgatory in and of itself is not in the scripture. It is inferred from the scripture. What it is in the scripture is that Jesus said only souls in perfect state of grace will enter into the kingdom of heaven and what is also in the scripture is that souls condemned will.enter hell. So the logical question is what happens with a soul who dies but is not in perfect state of grace and has not died in mortal sin or repented before dying? That soul can’t go to heaven because is not in perfect state of grace and would be extremely unfair to send that soul to heaven. Another point to remember, you need to interpret the scriptures in the totality of its message, I mentioned this because the totality of the message in the scripture is that God is justice and God is love so if God is justice God would not send that soul to hell because that would be an injustice, and because God doesn’t contradict himself we know that soul can’t go into heaven. So there must be a place in which souls who are not in perfect state of grace go to in which they can purify themselves. If purgatory doesn’t exist then the entire bible doesn’t make sense because the lack of purgatory means that everybody goes to hell which makes no sense again because if everybody is going to hell then there is no salvation and then why Jesus came. Remember things don’t have to be specifically stated in the bible.

To continue:

In the Book of Revelation we read that nothing unclean (or unpure) can enter heaven. If we as Christians (even after we confess belief) can still sin, we are obviously still unclean. Our sins do not automatically become forgiven, we must ask for forgiveness. And if we still have that tendency towards sin even if we are repentant, that is still uncleanliness. To be pure we must lose all connection with our own sin, which would include the tendency to sin. It is possible, but unlikely for most people. So, if you are still unclean, how can you enter heaven? By being purified. We see mention in the NT of the works being tested in fire. If the works survive, the person will receive their reward. If the work is burned up, the person will suffer a loss, but will still be saved. A person can’t suffer in heaven, and they can’t be saved in hell, so this must mean that this fire is some kind of purification. In the OT, in 2 Maccabees, we see an indication of the faithful praying for the dead so they may enter heaven.

The idea the purgatory is a place or involves some kind of time is merely conjecture and is not considered doctrine. The only doctrine in regards to purgatory are as follows:

1. A purification after death exists for those destined for heaven, but are still yet unclean
2. This purification involves some kind of suffering
3. The purification process can be aided by the prayers and offerings of the faithful on earth (and likely in heaven as well, but that’s just my opinion)

More:
catholic.com/tracts/purgatory
catholic.com/tracts/the-roots-of-purgatory
catholic.com/radio/shows/where-is-purgatory-in-the-bible-7977
catholic.com/radio/shows/the-bible-blueprint-for-purgatory-7363

And to the OP, for more info on salvation and what grace is:
catholic.com/tracts/grace-what-it-is-and-what-it-does
catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation

 

[clem456]

Apologies for the huge snips

He who does not…
remains in a heretic… excommunicated.-St. Thomas Aquinas

If anyone says…Let him be anathema.-Council of Trent

There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics… Pope Leo XIII

Indifferentism… Pope Gregory XVI

Hope these help.

I suspect these statements are slightly out of context to the topic we are discussing??
Heresy? Indifferentism? I don’t think so.

OP, it is good to talk to your local priests, deacons, etc…and there is lots of good advice given you in this thread also.

 

[FAB]

I was baptized Catholic when I was a baby and until now I’m a dedicated believer of Christ. However, while I abide with most of the practices of the church, like attending Sunday mass, there are a few of their teachings I’m having doubts with, like the concept of Purgatory. If I don’t agree with all Catholic traditions, does that mean I can’t be called one? I wish I could still be a member.

It is alright to question. Questioning leads to study and to knowlege, wisdom and understanding. Gifts of the Spirit that you have in confirmation.

There is more to be a faithful Catholic than just sunday mass. It is living the word of Christ. Your first steps to know Christ’s Church is to know Christ better. Study the Gospels, the Catichism of the Church, the social doctrine of the Church. address your qustions to the preist and deacon of your parish, attend retreats and pray.
All of this will lead you to a closer relationship to the Trinity. along the way you will also come to understand the reason for purgatory. That is is not a place of punishment, but of puification, a place to get prepared to spend eternity with the Lord.
You will be as many of your brothers and sister Catholics who themselves are searching to understand. The journey toward the truth will increase your love for the Lord, increase you faith and increase your love for Christ’s true Church.

Deacon Frank

 

[gracepoole]

When I spoke with a spiritual director about doubts I had/have regarding specific Church teachings, he told me to look around me the next time I was at Mass because in every corner of the Church – behind me, in front of me, beside me, and even in the pews I couldn’t see – are Catholics with doubts. I don’t doubt that most of the responses you receive will urge you “get right” with the Magisterium. But you’re in good company if you’re unsure, and you’re most definitely still Catholic. You always will be.

 

[jedpatrickdatu]

Again thanks for the replies. I will reflect on your information and hopefully form sound conclusions. It’s great to be in this forum.

 

[eamonnroma]

Then they aren’t answers. Catholicism is the only religion that is in full conformity with the Bible, because the Church wrote the Bible. The Church is also the only entity that was given the authority and the grace to teach all truth in the name of Christ, so I don’t know why you would think that it needs to measure up to your limited understanding and intellect before it can be judged correct. If your interpretation of the Bible disagrees with the Church’s, the only reasonable explanation is that you’re wrong.

I am sorry, but I think I must have misunderstood you. The books of the bible were written before the Church existed, so how could the Church have written the bible?

 

[JamesCaruso]

It is alright to question. Questioning leads to study and to knowlege, wisdom and understanding. Gifts of the Spirit that you have in confirmation.

There is more to be a faithful Catholic than just sunday mass. It is living the word of Christ. Your first steps to know Christ’s Church is to know Christ better. Study the Gospels, the Catichism of the Church, the social doctrine of the Church. address your qustions to the preist and deacon of your parish, attend retreats and pray.
All of this will lead you to a closer relationship to the Trinity. along the way you will also come to understand the reason for purgatory. That is is not a place of punishment, but of puification, a place to get prepared to spend eternity with the Lord.
You will be as many of your brothers and sister Catholics who themselves are searching to understand. The journey toward the truth will increase your love for the Lord, increase you faith and increase your love for Christ’s true Church.

Deacon Frank

And don’t be lulled into believing that the Rosary is just a passing fad, or a tool for beginner Catholics to learn their faith. Properly done, it is the door to understanding the richness of our faith more deeply and more profoundly the more we practice it. It is one of the few prayers endorsed by heaven, if you believe the reports of the saints.

“The rosary is the book of the blind, where souls see and there enact the greatest drama of love the world has ever known; it is the book of the simple, which initiates them into mysteries and knowledge more satisfying than the education of other men; it is the book of the aged, whose eyes close upon the shadow of this world, and open on the substance of the next. The power of the rosary is beyond description.” Bishop Fulton J, Sheen

 

[Felasco]

The original poster raises a quite interesting question that I can relate to.

The answer perhaps depends a good deal on how one defines the Catholic Church.

If one defines the Catholic Church as being a set of ideological beliefs defined by a self appointed leadership class, then it seems at least a good faith effort to be loyal to those beliefs would make up at least part of the definition of what a Catholic is.

If one defines the Catholic Church as being a community of over a billion human beings, containing a rich variety of diverse Christian interpretations, such a definition would be far more inclusive.

It seems to me that this more inclusive definition is the one even the leadership uses in practice, if not in theory. As example, one does not need to pass a rigid ideological test to attend church or receive communion. Every Sunday the pews are filled with Catholics who were baptized and confirmed, who attend mass regularly, and are sincere Christians, but who will likely have widely varying views on issues of the day.

And then there are those who come from generations of Catholics, who were baptized and confirmed as Catholics, who think like Catholics, about the kinds of things Catholics think about, but who longer longer attend mass, and disagree with official Church doctrines substantially in many respects. I don’t know if it’s reasonable to label such folks Catholic or not.

Perhaps the term “cultural Catholic” comes in handy here, as opposed to “ideological Catholic”. It seems entirely possible to be one without being the other.

 

[Elizabeth502]

There’s a lot to unpack here.

I was baptized Catholic when I was a baby and until now I’m a dedicated believer of Christ. However, while I abide with most of the practices of the church, like attending Sunday mass, there are a few of their teachings I’m having doubts with, like the concept of Purgatory. If I don’t agree with all Catholic traditions, does that mean I can’t be called one? I wish I could still be a member.

Doubts (which you mention) are fairly universal among sincere Catholics, and are to be differentiated from “not agreeing with,” which implies deliberate opposition. This distinction is important. The Catholic Church is the extension of Christ on earth. In her teachings she is guided by The Holy Spirit, and thus cannot err in the realm of faith and morals. She may explain differently, more fully, in more contemporary language, as time passes, but IF it is part of what is called The Deposit of Faith, as opposed to mere tradition with a small “t,” the Truth of the dogma or doctrine is guaranteed to be permanent and binding.

It’s wasn’t because I hate the church, in fact I admire them and follow their sacraments(I believe in the Eucharist too). **I just had a lot of questions about salvation according the Bible **so I do plenty of research that lead me to answers conflicting with a few things in traditional Catholicism.

Catholics do not believe in private interpretation of Scripture – which does not mean private reading and praying of Scripture, private spiritual insight into Scripture, but setting oneself up as a heterodox Scripture “authority” based on a personal decision not grounded either in training in reading ancient manuscripts several times translated, or in an understanding of how that scripture has been authoritatively understood within the 2,000 year history of Catholicism.

Also, I’m divided in the concept of mortal and venial sin. The Bible does not explicitly mention mortal or venial sins, but it does mention that some sins will be punished greater than others. However, it also says that it only takes one sin - no mention if it’s mortal or venial - for one to be damned.

The distinctions between mortal and venial are simply categories describing heavy and light, or major and minor. The categories are derived from Scripture, not specified in Scripture. In addition, the teachings in Catholicism reflect a unified system containing harmoniously authentic Scripture interpretation (trained, educated) + Sacred Tradition (The Fathers/Doctors of the Church, the Lives/Writings of the Saints, etc.). That would include inspiration from the mystics of the Church (among those Saints) who shared revelations based on their prayer lives.

 

[Elizabeth502]

To sum up, it’s important to distinguish three separate categories:

The remedy for Questions is to seek authoritative Answers from those theologically trained to address those questions. Those answers cannot be guaranteed from any message board which does not filter, in the discussion section, those offering random opinions, including a message board with “Answers” in the title.

Doubts about received teachings are virtually a universal experience among Catholics – in fact probably believers of other faith traditions as well. (Priests have doubts.)
The remedy for Doubt is prayer, especially prayer directed toward the theological virtue of Faith. “Agreement” is not the opposite of doubt. Faith is the opposite of doubt.

The remedy for “disagreement” is not to adopt the secular American mindset that its members get to vote on dogma and doctrine, as if faith and morals are equivalent to political policies being advocated at a City Council Meeting.

 

[Felasco]

The remedy for “disagreement” is not to adopt the secular American mindset that its members get to vote on dogma and doctrine, as if faith and morals are equivalent to political policies being advocated at a City Council Meeting.

Every Catholic votes with their own conscience on dogma and doctrine.

The person sitting next to you in church agrees with you on 9 things, but not the tenth thing. The person next to them agrees with 4 things, but not 3 things, and is unsure about the remaining 3. The person sitting next to them isn’t really clear what the official dogmas and doctrines are, but they like attending mass. The person sitting next to them agrees with official dogmas completely, except when they visit their gay daughter and her partner, and then they feel too guilty to agree with the Church completely.

On and on it goes, down the pews, from one to the next. This is the reality of Catholicism.

The Church officially rejects this pluralism, but in the real world they embrace the donations and mass attendance of all those who don’t fully agree with official Catholic doctrines. If the Church leaders didn’t realistically embrace the reality of diversity in this way, they’d have to close all the parishes, as there wouldn’t be enough folks left to pay the light bills.

 

[gracepoole]

Every Catholic votes with their own conscience on dogma and doctrine.

The person sitting next to you in church agrees with you on 9 things, but not the tenth thing. The person next to them agrees with 4 things, but not 3 things, and is unsure about the remaining 3. The person sitting next to them isn’t really clear what the official dogmas and doctrines are, but they like attending mass. The person sitting next to them agrees with official dogmas completely, except when they visit their gay daughter and her partner, and then they feel too guilty to agree with the Church completely.

On and on it goes, down the pews, from one to the next. This is the reality of Catholicism.

The Church officially rejects this pluralism, but in the real world they embrace the donations and mass attendance of all those who don’t fully agree with official Catholic doctrines. If the Church leaders didn’t realistically embrace the reality of diversity in this way, they’d have to close all the parishes, as there wouldn’t be enough folks left to pay the light bills.

Several years ago, I studied overseas with a woman from Poland who was staying at a convent while I stayed with other course participants at a hotel. One day, we were discussing Catholicism and she quietly offered, “Why are you American Catholics so serious about everything?” Indeed. My great-grandparents never asked whether they were “real Catholics” or “still Catholic” because they thought the Church’s teachings on birth control were batty (and they did).

 

[Felasco]

Several years ago, I studied overseas with a woman from Poland who was staying at a convent while I stayed with other course participants at a hotel. One day, we were discussing Catholicism and she quietly offered, “Why are you American Catholics so serious about everything?” Indeed.

Yes, when I was being raised Catholic back in the fifties and sixties, it seemed one was Catholic, or some other denomination, and that was that. Times have changed, it’s true.

I’m not really qualified to compare American Catholics to Catholics worldwide, and would be interested in learning more about that. I’m not sure who to learn this from though really, as everyone seems to have an axe to grind these days, and it’s hard to find objective reporters.

 

[Daniel_Lysinger]

In the words of St. Augustine, “I believe, in order to understand; and I understand, the better to believe.”

It’s sad that you do not believe in all that the Church teaches, but if the Church is the true Church, there must be an explanation. My suggestion is to ask your pastor in the meanwhile

 

[gracepoole]

Yes, when I was being raised Catholic back in the fifties and sixties, it seemed one was Catholic, or some other denomination, and that was that. Times have changed, it’s true.

This is just a guess on my part but I’m doubtful there was as much obsession with identifying true Catholics before Vatican II. Now there seems to be panic over how Catholicism is defined. At least here in the U.S.

 

[Felasco]

This is just a guess on my part but I’m doubtful there was as much obsession with identifying true Catholics before Vatican II. Now there seems to be panic over how Catholicism is defined. At least here in the U.S.

Good point, Vatican II seems a reasonable theory, along with the increasing polarization that seems to be infecting American politics and other arenas.

Vatican II was a global event effecting all of Catholicism. Did it have the same polarizing effect beyond the U.S. do you know? Are Catholics around the world all worked up as American Catholics seem to be?

 

[JamesCaruso]

Every Catholic votes with their own conscience on dogma and doctrine.

The person sitting next to you in church agrees with you on 9 things, but not the tenth thing. The person next to them agrees with 4 things, but not 3 things, and is unsure about the remaining 3. The person sitting next to them isn’t really clear what the official dogmas and doctrines are, but they like attending mass. The person sitting next to them agrees with official dogmas completely, except when they visit their gay daughter and her partner, and then they feel too guilty to agree with the Church completely.

On and on it goes, down the pews, from one to the next. This is the reality of Catholicism.

The Church officially rejects this pluralism, but in the real world they embrace the donations and mass attendance of all those who don’t fully agree with official Catholic doctrines. If the Church leaders didn’t realistically embrace the reality of diversity in this way, they’d have to close all the parishes, as there wouldn’t be enough folks left to pay the light bills.

That’s a bit cynical, don’t you think? The Church in no way caters to people with differing views just to get their money and keep the doors open. It does cater to anyone who has an interest in following Christ, even those as yet not fully accepting of all the Church’s teachings. The hope is that sitting in the pews they will come to know and embrace the truth.

I have not met anyone in my present parish who has expressed a view contrary to Church teaching, and I know a lot of people, but it could be I am just traveling in the right circles. In my last parish, I did meet parishioners who held contrary views.