Amazing Facts bible study guide

[Protestant101]

If you had no ulterior motives, then you would have simply answered the question that Patrick asked… Instead you attempt to “control” the conversation by refusing to answer and requiring others to answer your questions. A typical technique, as discussed by Patrick of trying to control the conversation when “witnessing”…

I hope you will join us in an open and honest discussion, where if you are asked a question… you dont try to hold the answer hostage until you get what you want… LOL

What childish sentiments. If you really are interested in exploring this, I have started a topic that may eventually cover answers to your “questions.”

Just for the record, some Catholic forum members here have just said the opposite about me and my posts here. At any rate, with you & Patrick & the other ex-Adventist Catholics dissing away here it is impossible to know what this thread is about anymore. I won’t be back to this topic, whatever it is.

 

[SDA2RC]

What childish sentiments. If you really are interested in exploring this, I have started a topic that may eventually cover answers to your “questions.”

Just for the record, some Catholic forum members here have just said the opposite about me and my posts here. At any rate, with you & Patrick & the other ex-Adventist Catholics dissing away here it is impossible to know what this thread is about anymore. I won’t be back to this topic, whatever it is.

As usual… Protestant, you have still refused to answer Patrick’s question and you have refused to answer Teresa Bloom’s question. Instead posting in another thread asking Catholics what they believe.

You may not like what I said… but it has been accurate… you STILL have not answered the question by Patrick or Teresa.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

As usual… Protestant, you have still refused to answer Patrick’s question and you have refused to answer Teresa Bloom’s question. Instead posting in another thread asking Catholics what they believe.

You may not like what I said… but it has been accurate… you STILL have not answered the question by Patrick or Teresa.

Nor the reply to Nan S in Post # 286, unless I missed it.

I have been reading the thread that Protestant101 started on “Partaking of the Divine Nature”. The answers provided there are very good. Perhaps 101 will eventually share, on that thread, what he thinks about it, or even better, come to understand, accept, and believe what the others are sharing with him on that thread!!!

I will be interested to keep reading that thread as it develops.

God bless all!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Dear all,

Well from the looks of things it appears that this thread has reached its conclusion. The original question regarding what are, and which church is associated with, the Amazing Facts Bible Study Guides was answered. The discussions that arose during this thread are now apparently over since the dialog, at least on this thread, is not going any further. It is probably best that the various topics be discussed in other threads that are more topic specific. I would just like to leave a few final observations and thoughts on what has transpired on this thread.

In my opinion, much of what has transpired on this thread is the result of a very unique and fascinating dynamic (at least to me). Here, for the first time ever in my life experience, there was a meeting of Seventh-day Adventists (SDA) with Catholics (RC) who were once Seventh-day Adventists. When I, as a former SDA, decided to join the RCC, I pretty much figured I was the only SDA in the world to have made that decision. When I did a Google search looking for other SDAs who may have joined the RCC, I came across this site, as well as the DIES DOMINI web site. I was surprised, to say the least, that other SDAs had joined the RCC. While it is true that a person is more likely to discover more living creatures of extinct species, there are quite a few SDAs who joined the RCC, and I believe that many more will follow that path as time goes on.

For SDAs to confront Catholics or other Protestants with their Bible studies is one thing. But to confront Catholics who were once SDAs must have been unimaginable. I know it would have been for me. Perhaps that explains some of the reluctance to dialog, but I’m sure there are other reasons. Yet here is why I believe it must have been unimaginable, and this will tie in with the original question, asked by Jennifer123, of this thread regarding who is behind the Amazing Facts (AF) Bible Study Guides.

Whether it is the AF Bible Study guides, or any number of other organized SDA Bible study guides, or Revelation Seminars, they all cover studies in SDA teachings geared to convert people to the SDA church. In most, if not all of these studies and seminars, there are two major points made to convince people to join the SDA church. First, that Saturday is the 7th day sabbath and that it is binding on all Christians. Second, that the Catholic Church is the beast and whore of Babylon in the book of Revelation, and that the Pope is the anti-christ.

The message of the second point stated above is that Satan controls and leads the Pope and the Catholic Church to usurp God’s power and authority, and deceive the entire world to follow man (as guided by Satan) rather than God. Of course the approach that SDAs adopt toward Catholics is that they are deceived and need to be taught the “truth” so as to save them from eternal destruction. It is a variation of “hate the sin, love the sinner”.

That is the bottom line for Amazing Facts Bible Studies, Revelation Seminars, or any other myriad set of Bible studies presented by the SDA Church.

So for any Catholics out there who are invited to partake in any of these ministries of the SDA Church, please know that is what you will eventually be presented with to accept and believe.

I believe it is because of the former SDAs’, as well as my knowledge, of these two points mentioned above, that resulted in this very unique dynamic of discussion (or lack thereof) on this thread. They most likely believe that we have been deceived by Satan and the anti-christ, by choosing to join the Catholic Church, and most likely have a sincere concern for us. We most likely believe that we have finally found the “truth”, Jesus, in complete fullness. These two opposing beliefs present a BIG challenge to communication as you may well be able to imagine.

If any of the other former SDAs have any comments to correct anything I’ve said, please jump in with your thoughts, because as I stated at the beginning, these are my opinions based on my personal experience and observations.

It is my prayer that we can dialog as Christian brothers and sisters. If not now, then hopefully at some point. It has taken me approximately 23 years to reach the decision I made, and only within the past two years to really be able to even discuss the possibility of becoming a Catholic. It took much much prayer, study, and tears. I understand the SDAs points of view and mind, I hope one day they can understand my points of view and new mind. It is difficult, and I cannot even begin to tell you how much.

Thank you all for you patience with “us” on this thread. I hope we can all take something positive away from it. If we cannot, then this has all be a waste, but more sadly it would be a dis-grace. Let’s keep each other in our prayers, even if we cannot keep each other in our conversations…perhaps one day…

God bless all,
Patrick Murebil

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Patrick:

When I became Catholic I also thought I was the only one in the world to go from SDA to RCC. It was such a relief for me to find others.

Marsha

 

[Protestant101]

Dear all,

Whether it is the AF Bible Study guides, or any number of other organized SDA Bible study guides, or Revelation Seminars, they all cover studies in SDA teachings geared to convert people to the SDA church. In most, if not all of these studies and seminars, there are two major points made to convince people to join the SDA church. First, that Saturday is the 7th day sabbath and that it is binding on all Christians. Second, that the Catholic Church is the beast and whore of Babylon in the book of Revelation, and that the Pope is the anti-christ.

Patrick Murebil

Well; I do need to say one more thing or two here. I have said time and again that I don’t come to this forum with the intention of answering all the questions put to me by various forum members. I won’t even try. I am only one, and there are many here asking me many questions; I don’t have time or energy to answer them all with the detail they deserve. It is unfortunate that some of you choose to characterize me in various ways as if I have done something “wrong” in our studies and discussions, because I don’t answer everything the way you want, but this kind of approach where you pronounce myself or other Protestants as “dishonest” and “refusing” etc., simply shows where you are really coming from; and that is the unfortunate part.

The other part of what I would like to mention is how you and SDA2RC, and other ex-Adventist Catholics here continually mock and misrepresent Adventist beliefs. I think I will just do up a chart and put it online with two columns; one for what we say about the Catholic Church; and the other column for what you say about us. The public has a right to know what your intentions really are. You keep forgetting to tell them what your church really thinks about Protestants.

 

[SDA2RC]

Well; I do need to say one more thing or two here. I have said time and again that I don’t come to this forum with the intention of answering all the questions put to me by various forum members. I won’t even try. I am only one, and there are many here asking me many questions; I don’t have time or energy to answer them all with the detail they deserve. It is unfortunate that some of you choose to characterize me in various ways as if I have done something “wrong” in our studies and discussions, because I don’t answer everything the way you want, but this kind of approach where you pronounce myself or other Protestants as “dishonest” and “refusing” etc., simply shows where you are really coming from; and that is the unfortunate part.

The other part of what I would like to mention is how you and SDA2RC, and other ex-Adventist Catholics here continually mock and misrepresent Adventist beliefs. I think I will just do up a chart and put it online with two columns; one for what we say about the Catholic Church; and the other column for what you say about us. The public has a right to know what your intentions really are. You keep forgetting to tell them what your church really thinks about Protestants.

Protestant101,
If myself, or Marsha, or Patrick, or AdventistnoMore, or any of the rest of the SDA’s converted to Catholicism have misrepresented your beliefs, I invite you to please let us know how/where we have done so and we will explain our statements and hopefully clarify this issue for you or anyone else that believes that Adventists have been misrepresented.

I have seen us accused of misrepresenting the Adventist faith before, but so far no one has explained how it has been misrepresented, I am certainly willing to listen and explain my viewpoint.

I am also curious where I have mocked Adventist beliefs? I am not saying I haven’t… I just can’t recall doing so.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

You keep forgetting to tell them what your church really thinks about Protestants.

Please, do tell us all what our Church really thinks about Protestants. To give you a little help on that score, you might want to tell us all what the Church as a hierarchy thinks about Protestants and what the Catholic in the pew thinks about Protestants. You might also address the issue of whether lay Catholics think about Protestants at all theologically. Let me give you a clue, does “pity” count as a thought?

When you finish with exposing that deep dark secret, please go the extra mile and tell us all what the Seventh Day Adventist (denomination and layperson) thinks and teaches about the Catholic Church.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Well; I do need to say one more thing or two here. I have said time and again that I don’t come to this forum with the intention of answering all the questions put to me by various forum members. I won’t even try. I am only one, and there are many here asking me many questions; I don’t have time or energy to answer them all with the detail they deserve. It is unfortunate that some of you choose to characterize me in various ways as if I have done something “wrong” in our studies and discussions, because I don’t answer everything the way you want, but this kind of approach where you pronounce myself or other Protestants as “dishonest” and “refusing” etc., simply shows where you are really coming from; and that is the unfortunate part.

The other part of what I would like to mention is how you and SDA2RC, and other ex-Adventist Catholics here continually mock and misrepresent Adventist beliefs. I think I will just do up a chart and put it online with two columns; one for what we say about the Catholic Church; and the other column for what you say about us. The public has a right to know what your intentions really are. You keep forgetting to tell them what your church really thinks about Protestants.

Dear all,

In my experience in the SDA church, Revelation seminars, and SDA Bible studies inevitably teach that the Catholic Church is the beast of Revelation and that the Pope is the anti-christ. This is a major teaching of the SDA church which is undeniably against Catholicsim and used to gain converts and members.

I have never heard any Catholic sermons or seminars preaching against protestant churches in order to gain converts or members. My wife, in 47 years, never heard a sermon against protestants.

But here we go again…unfortunately.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Patrick:

When I became Catholic I also thought I was the only one in the world to go from SDA to RCC. It was such a relief for me to find others.

Marsha

Yes it was a relief and a blessing. I would invite all former SDAs who are now Catholic, or soon will be (like me)…to just put up a quick post here letting us know who you are, and this will be a good resource for us to know who were former SDAs. And if you know any former SDAs on the forum ask them if they wouldn’t mind just letting us know here. It is nice to see others who have made the journey home…and that is a truely amazing fact.

I will join the Catholic Church next Easter, 2009!!!

Thanks and God bless all!!
Patrick Murebil

 

[SDA2RC]

Dear all,

In my experience in the SDA church, Revelation seminars, and SDA Bible studies inevitably teach that the Catholic Church is the beast of Revelation and that the Pope is the anti-christ. This is a major teaching of the SDA church which is undeniably against Catholicsim and used to gain converts and members.

I have never heard any Catholic sermons or seminars preaching against protestant churches in order to gain converts or members. My wife, in 47 years, never heard a sermon against protestants.

But here we go again…unfortunately.

Patrick,
I agree with what you said above. In fact I would say that his paranoia about Catholicism runs so deep that several times I heard (as an Adventist) that the Catholic Church had sent in Jesuits to the Adventist Church to spy and research the denomination for when the end time came. If I remember correctly, even Dr. Bacchiocchi was labeled a Jesuit several times.

I don’t recall the General Conference ever promoting the Jesuit Conspiracy directly, but the belief and teachings of the Church on Catholicism are what fostered this kind of paranoia.

Since Protestant101, brought up Protestants… it only seems fair to note that Adventist leaders teach that it is not only Catholics that will hunt them down and kill them because they go to Church on Saturday. But it also teaches that Sunday keeping Protestantism under the leadership (spell) of the Pope will reach across that “great chasm” and join the Papacy in hunting down and killing the Adventists who refuse to go to church on Sunday.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Patrick,
I agree with what you said above. In fact I would say that his paranoia about Catholicism runs so deep that several times I heard (as an Adventist) that the Catholic Church had sent in Jesuits to the Adventist Church to spy and research the denomination for when the end time came. If I remember correctly, even Dr. Bacchiocchi was labeled a Jesuit several times.

Just a few days ago on SDAIssues, Ron Beaulieu was pointing out that Dr. Bacchiocchi was a Jesuit. Ron and Gary both wanted to know if I would kill them if the Pope directed me to. Perhaps it was wrong of me, but I did not disabuse them of the notion that Pope calls me regularly with orders to kill people. I did point out that the Church bears no animus against them, but of course, they didn’t believe me.

 

[Deconi]

The paranoia and intensity of antiCatholic thought is because SDA and LDS, among others like them, ACTUALLY TEACH the laity against The Catholic Church! I’ve been in many where entire ‘sermons’ were on comparing the pastor / minister’s take on Scriptures and ‘That Ol’ dead church’ up the road and their antiquated ways leading many to Hell!

When I was younger and full of confrontational spirit, I wondered why the priests never teach against other denoms, like they were against “us.” The most they’d say is the difference between Catholic belief and Protestants. I always wanted the hammer to fall on somebody!

Of course, now I know better.

Truth, does not argue!

Personally, I ‘hate’ it, but there you go.

 

[mercygate]

Regarding the first question; I do need to clarify something from the Catholic viewpoint before I try to answer. Does Catholic teaching include more than just one way to “partake of Christ’s nature?” If no, then would that one way be the “Eucharist?”

This is probably a bigger and subtler question than I am equipped to answer. But at the very least we Catholics understand that Christ comes to us and speaks to us in many ways.

But we know from Scripture and from the actual life of the early Church that the Eucharist is the privileged place of Communion with Him. The Eucharistic Presence is substantial and qualitatively different from other ways in which His grace functions in our lives.

In the Eucharist we are brought into Communion with Him, with the Father, by the Holy Spirit; we are also brought into substantial Communion with the whole Church in Heaven and on Earth. We are constituted as the Body of Christ by his Body and Blood.

Where non-Catholics trip is that they recognize all the other ways in which Christ appears in our lives – particularly through Scripture – and they assume that because this is so GREAT that nothing could possibly be “better.” There is also a rather prevalent idea among protestants that “spiritual” means “symbolic” or “not real.” Catholic theology accepts that “God is substantially Spirit” (as St. John so pithily states); therefore Spirit is “more” real than physics and trans-substance-iation is definitely a privileged contact point of the soul with its Redeemer.

 

[Protestant101]

This is probably a bigger and subtler question than I am equipped to answer. But at the very least we Catholics understand that Christ comes to us and speaks to us in many ways.

But we know from Scripture and from the actual life of the early Church that the Eucharist is the privileged place of Communion with Him. The Eucharistic Presence is substantial and qualitatively different from other ways in which His grace functions in our lives.

In the Eucharist we are brought into Communion with Him, with the Father, by the Holy Spirit; we are also brought into substantial Communion with the whole Church in Heaven and on Earth. We are constituted as the Body of Christ by his Body and Blood.

Where non-Catholics trip is that they recognize all the other ways in which Christ appears in our lives – particularly through Scripture – and they assume that because this is so GREAT that nothing could possibly be “better.” There is also a rather prevalent idea among protestants that “spiritual” means “symbolic” or “not real.” Catholic theology accepts that “God is substantially Spirit” (as St. John so pithily states); therefore Spirit is “more” real than physics and trans-substance-iation is definitely a privileged contact point of the soul with its Redeemer.

Hi 'mercygate’

I have always enjoyed the spirit of your replies, even when we disagree; thanks for these comments. This is the kind of thing I was hoping for, as a result of my question which some objected to so much here. I was not going to reply anymore to this thread; but I am writing this quick note to let you know I will cut and paste your comment to the thread I started about the Eucharist, “Partaking of The Divine Nature.”

To Brandon and Patrick

Keep up the good work. You must be very proud of yourselves.

You still forgot to mention ALL that your church teaches and thinks about Protestants… How convenient.

Those who don’t like to put things into perspective usually do have something to hide…I have never gone for all the conspiracy theory hoopla you keep basting your heresy about Adventists with, infact it would be safe to say that you have both been out of the denomination too long now to really be in touch with what’s really going on.

Your stuff sounds like Catholic Conspiracy Theories About Adventists. Thanks for showing everyone a good example of that. I will be sure to link to your comments when telling others about it.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Hi 'mercygate’
To Brandon and Patrick

Keep up the good work. You must be very proud of yourselves.

You still forgot to mention ALL that your church teaches and thinks about Protestants… How convenient.

Those who don’t like to put things into perspective usually do have something to hide…I have never gone for all the conspiracy theory hoopla you keep basting your heresy about Adventists with, infact it would be safe to say that you have both been out of the denomination too long now to really be in touch with what’s really going on.

Your stuff sounds like Catholic Conspiracy Theories About Adventists. Thanks for showing everyone a good example of that. I will be sure to link to your comments when telling others about it.

To all,

I haven’t been that out of touch with what is going on in the SDA church, mostly because they still send me letters from time to time.

I received one in July from Pastor Hal Mayer of “Keep The Faith” minstiries, with the beginning salutation “Dear Fellow Seventh-day Adventists”, and it went on to talk about Pope Benedict XVI and his visit to America and how it is Bible prophecy being fulfilled. Here is the link to the same topic on their website:

ktfministry.org/ . Read the first article “Benedict Visits America and the World”

If you want a very clear well documented SDA view of Catholicism and the Pope, this article is a “MUST READ”.

You may find it interesting to know what is thought about Catholicism and Catholics. The message presented at this site is typical of SDA ministries, whether Amazing Facts, Revelation Seminars, etc.

Please feel free to send the link above, or refer to this post, to all of your friends who may be wondering just what those nice folks knocking on your door and desiring to “study the Bible” with you think, before you get to lesson number 19, or whatever lesson number it is now.

I would urge all Catholics to read the article referred to above.

God bless all!!

 

[Deconi]

To all,

I haven’t been that out of touch with what is going on in the SDA church, mostly because they still send me letters from time to time.

I received one in July from Pastor Hal Mayer of “Keep The Faith” minstiries, with the beginning salutation “Dear Fellow Seventh-day Adventists”, and it went on to talk about Pope Benedict XVI and his visit to America and how it is Bible prophecy being fulfilled. Here is the link to the same topic on their website:

ktfministry.org/ . Read the first article “Benedict Visits America and the World”

If you want a very clear well documented SDA view of Catholicism and the Pope, this article is a “MUST READ”.

You may find it interesting to know what is thought about Catholicism and Catholics. The message presented at this site is typical of SDA ministries, whether Amazing Facts, Revelation Seminars, etc.

Please feel free to send the link above, or refer to this post, to all of your friends who may be wondering just what those nice folks knocking on your door and desiring to “study the Bible” with you think, before you get to lesson number 19, or whatever lesson number it is now.

I would urge all Catholics to read the article referred to above.

God bless all!!

Thank You, Patrick.

I see that nothing has changed in the SDA since the 70s!! Having learned the basis of the Catholic faith, and being an ex-SDA, now you can clearly see the difference! Such open hatred of Catholicism is taught and promulgated for a reason. As a kid, I used to think that there was no such thing as idiot adults. It’s funny how a denomination that pays so much attention to the details in Scriptures, can overlook the obvious, and so much of it!

Mind you, I no longer blame the laity of SDA. Never understanding that Our Lord placed a sinner fisherman as Head of His Church, how can ‘they’ understand the magnificance of His Will? Having changed some of Scriptures to suit, how can they fully know?

Big ups to Bush and the First Lady for meeting The Pope! I don’t know who had the final decision to go out and meet him at the airport but that has to be quite something!

Considering Bush is out of the Presidential Office anyway this year, would negate the political angle. Not to mention Ben16 spoke out and counselled against the Iraqi War!

Maybe Bush was looking for redemption.

 

[SDA2RC]

Hi 'mercygate’

I have always enjoyed the spirit of your replies, even when we disagree; thanks for these comments. This is the kind of thing I was hoping for, as a result of my question which some objected to so much here. I was not going to reply anymore to this thread; but I am writing this quick note to let you know I will cut and paste your comment to the thread I started about the Eucharist, “Partaking of The Divine Nature.”

To Brandon and Patrick

Keep up the good work. You must be very proud of yourselves.

You still forgot to mention ALL that your church teaches and thinks about Protestants… How convenient.

Those who don’t like to put things into perspective usually do have something to hide…I have never gone for all the conspiracy theory hoopla you keep basting your heresy about Adventists with, infact it would be safe to say that you have both been out of the denomination too long now to really be in touch with what’s really going on.

Your stuff sounds like Catholic Conspiracy Theories About Adventists. Thanks for showing everyone a good example of that. I will be sure to link to your comments when telling others about it.

Haha… Protestant101, you crack me up.

I left the SDA Church in 2004… if the Church has changed sooo much in the last 4 years… that in and of its self would prove it wrong.

No… I keep up with Adventist literature, teachings, friends, pastors, etc… the doctrines of the Church have not changed. Since you have accused us of making things up. Let me ask you point blank. (or other Adventists)

Protestant101
A simple Yes or No.

Does the Adventist Church teach that:

1. The pope will be the anti-Christ/beast of Revelation?
2. The Pope will lead a union of Protestants, CAtholics and Governments to persecute those who keep the Saturday Sabbath?
3. Sunday keeping is the “Mark of the Beast”?

This is what we have claimed the Adventist Church teaches… you claimed we were making it up and out of touch with the Church… Does the Adventist Church teach these things?

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Haha… Protestant101, you crack me up.

I left the SDA Church in 2004… if the Church has changed sooo much in the last 4 years… that in and of its self would prove it wrong.

No… I keep up with Adventist literature, teachings, friends, pastors, etc… the doctrines of the Church have not changed. Since you have accused us of making things up. Let me ask you point blank. (or other Adventists)

Protestant101
A simple Yes or No.

Does the Adventist Church teach that:

1. The pope will be the anti-Christ/beast of Revelation?
2. The Pope will lead a union of Protestants, CAtholics and Governments to persecute those who keep the Saturday Sabbath?
3. Sunday keeping is the “Mark of the Beast”?

This is what we have claimed the Adventist Church teaches… you claimed we were making it up and out of touch with the Church… Does the Adventist Church teach these things?

Again,

Read the article I reference three posts prior to this one…he quotes Ellen Gould White throughout…and for those who don’t know…she is the author of “The Great Controversy” and “Maranatha” (which must be a compilation book, because I do not remember that as an original title of her works years ago) which are referrenced in the article. On the official SDA website…Ellen Gould White is described as an authority for SDAs.

That would make her message and quotes “authoritatvie”, therefore…official.

 

[Protestant101]

Haha… Protestant101, you crack me up.

I left the SDA Church in 2004… if the Church has changed sooo much in the last 4 years… that in and of its self would prove it wrong.

I suspect you were just as out of touch when you were a member; as you are now.