Amazing Grace innapropriate for Church?

[NewEnglandPriest]

It’s one of the most request hymns for funerals. The idea of telling a grieving family that they can’t have a song that brings them comfort because some people think the song might be problematic doesn’t seem very practical to me.

 

[JustaServant]

It’s one of the most request hymns for funerals. The idea of telling a grieving family that they can’t have a song that brings them comfort because some people think the song might be problematic doesn’t seem very practical to me.

Father, I think for many people it is the fact it is a Protestant hymn. I understand thier feelings to an extent. However being a former Protestant myself, it’s the least objectionable of hymns, and not something get uptight about.
“I’ll Fly Away” on the other hand…

 

[maltmom]

Father, I think for many people it is the fact it is a Protestant hymn. I understand thier feelings to an extent. However being a former Protestant myself, it’s the least objectionable of hymns, and not something get uptight about.
“I’ll Fly Away” on the other hand…

Now you have me humming “I’ll Fly Away.”

 

[exnihilo]

Gosh, I find many ‘Protestant hymns’ are sung when I attend mass, even “A Mighty Fortress” by Martin Luther. Then you have the Battle Hymn of the Republic", “Christ the Lord Is Risen Today”, “We Gather Together”, “In Christ There Is No East or West”, “Hark, the Herald Angels Sing”, “O Little Town of Bethlehem” “For the Beauty of the Earth”, “Lord of the Dance”, “Softly and Tenderly”, “Fill My Cup, Lord” - and scores more.

Battle Hymn of the Republic was a no-no too until Bobby Kennedy’s funeral. Now I find there are just too many Protestant hymns being sung and not enough historically Catholic.

I’m familiar with some of those songs. I find some nice but can’t comment on their catholicity as I’ve never really delved into their lyrics. Not to sidetrack this thread, but Battle Hymn of the Republic is a song that should, in my opinion, not be sung in any church.

It is just a war anthem wrapped up in confused Biblical imagery. ‘Burnished rows of steel’ are rows of long guns. It was written by a Unitarian, Julia Ward Howe. It was reviled by a good portion of the country until they were effectively reconstructed but still has negative connotations to a good many people since the song makes the claim that God’s judgement is being carried out by a holy army of man upon an unrighteous people.

This verse is often omitted but really central to the true meaning of the song. Christ is a ‘hero’?

'I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel:
“As ye deal with my contemners, so with you my grace shall deal;
Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with his heel,
Since God is marching on.”

“In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in his bosom that transfigures you and me:
As he died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
While God is marching on.”

Christ was born in the lilies and not a manger? The work of Christ to save men’s soul is like making men ‘free’ through war?

There are more problems in the song but that should suffice. The tune is certainly very catchy, which is why it is popular. But the lyrics are really atrocious.

 

[aicirt]

Yes, but common sense isn’t so common. That’s my point.

True but how long does it take to get the bishops or the parish priest on track. This all started 50 yrs. ago. I’ve never studied music but when I hear these hymns something makes me look at the composer at the bottom of the page and I go home and google. I’m a lay person. Why doesn’t the priest or the head of the choir hear what I hear?

Before Mass, I’ve actually heard show songs being played.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

My question is, since the actual lyrics of Amazing Grace are theologically sound and it is an uplifting song, why do some people consider it innapropriate?

There’s one line in particular whose meaning such people utterly misconstrue, because they misunderstand it on the grammatical level.

I realize that it was originally written by a protestant, but why should that prevent us from using it?

It shouldn’t. You’re right.

The line, “saved a wretch like me” bothers some Catholics because they know that once saved, always saved is wrong.

That line in no way implies that “once saved, always saved” is true.

I think some people object to the line,

How precious did that grace appear the hour I first believed.

Since grace is always offered to us it is through grace that we come to believe. Yet, the way I see it, and I love the song, is that the person was unaware of grace until he believed. You have to believe God before you can understand His working in your life. That is what the song is about. He realizes that it was grace that led him to his conversion.

Exactly. “Precious” is an adjective, not an adverb. The grammar of the line actually precludes the interpretation that the speaker had grace only upon believing.

I think it’s because protestants say once your saved you cant be unsaved. Whereas catholics say it depends on the state of your soul at dead.

Many Protestants also reject that irrational idea. It’s only certain fundamentalist strains who believe in “once saved, always saved.” I suppose some non-fundamentalist evangelical Protestants believe in it, too, but most Protestants don’t.

I personally hate the song but it’s not really heretical or un-Catholic. The only problematic portion is the second verse. It can be read to mean that grace only come after a profession of faith which would not be consistent with Catholic teaching. But you don’t have to interpret it that way.

I don’t think that interpretation is grammatically possible. That the predicate in the clause contains “precious” - an adjective rather than an adverb - makes it necessary that “appear” is a linking verb.

The heretical interpretation of that verse is just plain grammatically impossible.

The question is in the line “How precious did that grace appear, the hour I first believed.” This line implies a rejection of baptismal grace via the heresy of Sola Fide (faith alone).

That interpretation of the line is grammatically invalid, therefore definitively wrong. So the song is demonstrably not teaching heresy.

Personally, I think the song is simply too problematic, enough to be imprudent, even if it can be reconciled with Catholicism. Not everything fine and dandy in principle and not heretical is good in practice, as we know.

But it’s not even borderline; the only way to interpret it heretically is literally grammatically invalid, as I explain just above in this reply.

That fact, coupled with the song’s high artistic quality, makes it a good choice for use in the sacred worship of our Church.

 

[Cat]

Allow me to clarify one of my posts above.

When I referred to the Catholic Church and the Mass as “pagan” or “idol-worshipping,” I meant that to refer to how I and my husband felt about the Catholic Church and Mass while we were PROTESTANT.

I THOUGHT I had made that clear in my post by the way I worded the sentence. I apologize for my inadequate writing if some were offended. I did not intend to imply any such thing about the Catholic Church.

I am grateful to be Catholic! And I work hard to convince my Protestant relatives and friends of the truth of the Catholic Church.

 

[RosalieM]

It isn’t that difficult. All one needs to do is google and find out the history of a hymn. For example, “The Lord of the Dance” is based on the Shaker hymn “Simple Gifts”. Carter wrote the lyrics to “Lord of the Dance” in 1963 having been inspired by Jesus, Shiva and Nataraja.

My argument re. the above is it isn’t Catholic. Shakers were a cult, Shiva is a Hindu god, one of Shiva’s alter egos or whatever is Nataraja, Catholics don’t have dance as part of their worship, so why are we singing this? Fine for a movie, but not in a Catholic church.

Hear, hear. The last time “The Lord of the Dance” came up for us in choir to sing, I couldn’t sing it. Our Lord didn’t “dance” on to the cross. He didn’t “dance” for the scribes and pharisees. And, excuse me, but “whipped and stripped”? Because it rhymes simplistically? and “Leapt up high” is supposed to be what…the Ascension? “Devil on your back”?
Stop it. Those words are just so wrong and make light of His crucifixion and resurrection.
I will never sing that song again. If choir is assigned to sing it ever again, I’ll just cover my face with my binder.
See for yourself:

---

I danced in the morning when the world was begun,
And I danced in the moon and the stars and the sun,
I came down from heaven and I danced on the earth;
At Bethlehem I had my birth.

Refrain:
Dance, then, wherever you may be;
I am the Lord of the Dance, said he,
And I’ll lead you all, wherever you may be,
And I’ll lead you all in the dance, said he.

I danced for the scribe and the pharisee,
But they would not dance and they would not follow me.
I danced for the fishermen, for James and John
They came with me and the dance went on.

Refrain

I danced on the Sabbeth and I cured the lame;
The holy people said it was a shame.
They whipped and they stripped and they hung me on high;
They left me there on a cross to die.

Refrain

I danced on a Friday when the sky turned black
It’s hard to dance with the devil on your back.
They buried my body and they thought I’d gone;
But I’m the dance and I still go on.

Refrain

They cut me down and I leapt up high;
I am the life that will never, never die;
I’ll live in you if you’ll live in me
I am the Lord of the Dance said he.

Refrain

 

[ProVobis]

Your point about luring Protestants into our Church is right on. I’m sure that was the thought behind removing the statues, altar railings, candles, and confessionals. Wonder how many became Catholics because of those changes?

You probably won’t hear too many Protestant-inspired hymns at Spanish or Polish Masses. At least I haven’t heard any there.

 

[anp1215]

You probably won’t hear too many Protestant-inspired hymns at Spanish or Polish Masses. At least I haven’t heard any there.

Do you think that’s because most Spanish-speakers and Polish-speakers are Catholic?

 

[aicirt]

RosalieM…thank you!

Did you ever ask the priest or the choir director? Do the two talk to each other?

I went to the choir director and asked if she knew the history of AMAZING GRACE. She didn’t. I happen to think the message is moving but I just find it odd that those in charge aren’t curious.

The one I’d love to hear especially at Christmas is Suo Gan, the Welsh lullaby played as the theme song in EMPIRE OF THE SUN. It now has lyrics for Christmas about the birth of Christ.

 

[ProVobis]

Do you think that’s because most Spanish-speakers and Polish-speakers are Catholic?

Ya think?

 

[thewanderer]

It isn’t that difficult. All one needs to do is google and find out the history of a hymn. For example, “The Lord of the Dance” is based on the Shaker hymn “Simple Gifts”. Carter wrote the lyrics to “Lord of the Dance” in 1963 having been inspired by Jesus, Shiva and Nataraja.

My argument re. the above is it isn’t Catholic. Shakers were a cult, Shiva is a Hindu god, one of Shiva’s alter egos or whatever is Nataraja, Catholics don’t have dance as part of their worship, so why are we singing this? Fine for a movie, but not in a Catholic church.

This is pretty much where my question comes from. How in the world does it matter where the song came from? Who wrote it? If the lyrics are not in themselves heretical than it can be used in a Catholic setting. The church has used many things that originated in paganism and other such religions and it will continue to do so in the future. This is a part of what the Church does, it takes things from the culture around it and makes them Catholic. So no, it is not simply a matter of figuring out where it came from, it’s a matter of figuring out whether it will lead people into heresy, if it won’t, and is helpful to them spiritually, then there is absolutely no problem with it.

 

[RosalieM]

RosalieM…thank you!

Did you ever ask the priest or the choir director? Do the two talk to each other?

I went to the choir director and asked if she knew the history of AMAZING GRACE. She didn’t. I happen to think the message is moving but I just find it odd that those in charge aren’t curious.

The one I’d love to hear especially at Christmas is Suo Gan, the Welsh lullaby played as the theme song in EMPIRE OF THE SUN. It now has lyrics for Christmas about the birth of Christ.

The pastor and choir direcor do talk to each other. As far as I know, the pastor requests songs some times that I don’t like. But I’m striving to be more humble so I no longer protest what the “higher ups” decide upon. If I object, I’ll be silent and hide my face or be absent. I’ll look up Suo Gan. The director did take my suggestion for “Gaudete” as a Christmas selection and it’s been in the repertoire since. Win some lose some.

p.s. - just looked it up and listened and saw the words in English. It is exquisite and very Christmas. I will keep the youtube link and hopefully suggest it to our director as the Christmas season draws near. Wow. Thank you.

youtu.be/YbM0TJOCWdg

 

[aicirt]

This is pretty much where my question comes from. How in the world does it matter where the song came from? Who wrote it? If the lyrics are not in themselves heretical than it can be used in a catholic setting. The church has used many things that originated in paganism and other sub religions and it will continue to do so in the future. This is a part of what the Church does, it takes things from the culture around it and makes them Catholic. So no, it is not simply a matter of figuring out where it came from, it’s a matter of figuring out whether it will lead people into heresy, if it won’t, and is helpful to them spiritually, then there is absolutely no problem with it.

WE don’t do “liturgical dance” so why promote it from a sect that is now defunct because it did not believe in having children. There are no longer any Shakers. There are some beautiful secular songs e.g. SOMEWHERE IN TIME but it does not belong in Church. We don’t allow a bride nor a griveing family to have any song they may want. Rather a selection is given to them to chose from.

I do admire the Church for bending but I don’t know of any pagan practices that were brought into the Mass itself. What might they be?

 

[thewanderer]

WE don’t do “liturgical dance” so why promote it from a sect that is now defunct because it did not believe in having children. There are no longer any Shakers. There are some beautiful secular songs e.g. SOMEWHERE IN TIME but it does not belong in Church. We don’t allow a bride nor a griveing family to have any song they may want. Rather a selection is given to them to chose from.

I do admire the Church for bending but I don’t know of any pagan practices that were brought into the Mass itself. What might they be?

I certainly wasn’t talkig about liturgical dance. As for pagan practices, of course there are none, the Church takes practices and makes them Catholic. As for a practice that came from pagan times but is allowed in Churches, what about the Christmas tree that is set up in pretty much every Church during the season of Christmas.

My point is that the Church takes such practices and makes them Catholic, they cease to be pagan or Protestant and become Catholic. So if a song written by a Protestant is theologically sound and will not lead people into heresy but will instead help them grow spiritually there is absolutely nothing preventing the Catholic Church taking it on as Her own.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Amazing Grace, from a musical standpoint, is also pretty awful. Hate the tune! And yes, I know it’s not a theological reason, but when you meld the lyrics together with sub-par music, you get one music director who’s not using it.

 

[TrueLight]

I think it is important to clarify that denominations which believe “once saved always saved”, usually include a caveat with that belief.

The caveat is that if you really were saved, then you would act saved. If you’re saved and doing all sorts of things that are contrary to God, then you were never really saved.

The misrepresentation that all Protestants believe you can do what you want and still go to heaven is a popular one on CAF. It is false.

Now, it is true that most Protestants don’t believe that if you die in grave sin you are going to go to hell, if you’ve lived a life mostly pleasing to God. But that is a far cry from “do what you want, you’re going to heaven anyway.”

Just sayin’.

 

[exnihilo]

Hear, hear. The last time “The Lord of the Dance” came up for us in choir to sing, I couldn’t sing it. Our Lord didn’t “dance” on to the cross. He didn’t “dance” for the scribes and pharisees. And, excuse me, but “whipped and stripped”? Because it rhymes simplistically? and “Leapt up high” is supposed to be what…the Ascension? “Devil on your back”?

Stop it. Those words are just so wrong and make light of His crucifixion and resurrection.

I will never sing that song again. If choir is assigned to sing it ever again, I’ll just cover my face with my binder.

I had never heard of this song until today and I wish I could have never known about it. The lyrics are childish and irreverent. I think I might actually feel sick to just be in a church while that song is sung.

I fully accept Holy Mother the Church’s right to modernize itself, and if our Bishops permit Protestant Hymns to be sung at Mass, I will obey them. However, I am still uncomfortable when I hear “Heavenly Sunshine”-the old Southern Baptist standby,“Amazing Grace”, the great Calvanist Anthem, assorted Negro Spirituals, and “A Mighty Fortress is Our God” by Martin Luther being sung in a Catholic Church. Apart from liturgical nuances, I feel this music sort of waters down the cultural and spiritual uniqueness of Holy Mother the Church.

Sing their hymns and saying their versions of prayers are not going to lure any of “them” into our church.

Well singing ‘Lord of the Dance’ would be a sure way not to attract this Protestant. I would however much rather sing ‘A Mighty Fortress’ than ‘On Eagles’ Wings’. One thing I find attractive about the Catholic Church is the abundance of beauty. Beauty seems to be missing from the singing of many Protestant and Catholic churches.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

I think it is important to clarify that denominations which believe “once saved always saved”, usually include a caveat with that belief.

The caveat is that if you really were saved, then you would act saved. If you’re saved and doing all sorts of things that are contrary to God, then you were never really saved.

The misrepresentation that all Protestants believe you can do what you want and still go to heaven is a popular one on CAF. It is false.

Now, it is true that most Protestants don’t believe that if you die in grave sin you are going to go to hell, if you’ve lived a life mostly pleasing to God. But that is a far cry from “do what you want, you’re going to heaven anyway.”

Just sayin’.

And then there are those that believe that you CAN do anything you want after you say “I believe” and get to heaven. I’m not sure that anyone said that all protestants believe that, but there are certainly some that do.