Amazing Grace innapropriate for Church?

[George_Stegmeir]

Even though you were raised in a very traditional setting, in which hymns like Amazing Grace would have been considered “mortal sin,”, this strict conservativism in your catechesis apparently wasn’t sufficient to keep you committed to Holy Mother Church. You said you were “away from the Church for many years.”

I run across that all the time on this forum. Posters rail against “modernism,” but then admit that they departed the Church back during a time when there was no modernism and everything was in Latin and chant was the only music at Mass.

So if this “traditional” approach is so stellar and worked so well, then why did these people leave? It apparently didn’t work for them.

Perhaps if you (and these others) had been exposed to beautiful hymns like Amazing Grace, written in the vernacular (English) and written with simple, non-flowery language that even the most “wretched” person can easily understand, and using simple “folk” melodies, you might not have left the Church.

My husband and I were raised on beautiful and stirring hymns like Amazing Grace, along with all kinds of Christian rock music and Christian contemporary music (CCM), and by the Grace of God, we can honestly say that we have never left the Lord. We have been confused, and we have actually been kicked out of our evangelical Protestant church (which led to our eventual conversion to Catholicism, so Praise the Lord over our ousting!). But we have never “left the Church for many years.”

I’m not saying that music is the anchor. Heaven forbid! The Holy Spirit is the One Who keeps us. But the Holy Spirit has definitely used music in our lives. Music is a form of catechesis, and in our case, the simple songs worked well, and still work to help us to remain loyal to the Lord Jesus and His Church. I think a lot of Catholics would be greatly helped in the daily journey to heaven by listening to more of the simple and heartfelt “Protestant” hymns and internalizing the lyrics.

My departure from the Church had nothing to do with traditionalism. I became a Merchant Seaman on a non-US freighter at a very early age (15) and then into the US Navy at age 19During my first enlistment, I think I saw a Catholic Chaplin only once, and was rarely in port on a Sunday. About the only religious ritual I saw was the traditional, though unofficial 1/2 day off on Good Friday. by the time I came ashore to get an education, I had lost all contact with the Church. After College, back to sea to earn a living. By the time I came ashore for good, my faith was but a dim memory. It was only after being on my death bed in a VA hospital and receiving the last rites from a priest that I came back to the faith when I survived. All of my early Catholic training came back in a great rush, but with the sense of humility and and obedience to accept the changes that had occured post Vatican II. Although I thoroughly appreciate and affectionally remember the Mass and Sacriments in Latin, I have very little patience with those schismatics who are more Catholic than the Pope! They seem to forget that it is incumbant upon Catholics to obey their Priests and Bishops in matters of Faith, and not to argue with them. Christ said it very well when he call upon us all to be like little children.

 

[anp1215]

I suppose you could say very many if not most native Polish speakers and native Spanish speakers are Catholics. Perhaps Italian speakers and French speakers too?

I know. Nevermind.

 

[ProVobis]

Although I thoroughly appreciate and affectionally remember the Mass and Sacriments in Latin, I have very little patience with those schismatics who are more Catholic than the Pope!

GS, you probably know this but there is nothing schismatic about wanting and having the Mass and Sacraments in Latin. Or singing Latin hymns either, for that matter. One can be in total immersion with the Latin and still be in full communion with the Church. Interestingly enough, I read that schismatic churches like the Old Catholic Church or the Polish National Catholic Church now have liturgies in English.

 

[aicirt]

It’s a poem.

It’s not about Jesus dancing, or anyone dancing. This is poetical language and should not be taken literally.

Remember “a tree who may in summer wear a nest of robins in her hair.”

Trees don’t have hair.

And trees don’t “wear” anything.

It’s poetry.

I can understand that if someone uses English as a second language, they may not recognize poetry when they see/hear it.

But someone who was born and raised in the United States or any country where English is used should be able to distinguish poetical language from other uses of language., and they should know that poetry should NOT be interpreted literally. This ability to recognize poetry should be learned when a child is in middle school, or possibly high school. But it should be learned, for it is a useful skill to know whether someone is talking about a hairy tree (freaky and frightening!) or just using a very lovely poetical phrase to describe the tree in the back yard.

Someone who insists that the hymn “Lord of the Dance” is talking about Jesus “dancing” will give an impression of ignorance, and make it difficult for others to take any of their claims seriously. This could compromise the person’s Christian witness.

If you don’t like the poem, that’s OK. But please recognize that others DO like it. I love “Lord of the Dance,” and appreciate the beautiful imagery in the poem.

I like “I Don’t Know How to Love Him” but it is not appropriate for a Catholic Mass.

If “Lord of the Dance” is okay, what about “Rock of Ages”? How come we gave a yes to the first and a nay to the latter? The ROCK is poetic…could mean God, Christ…or the Catholic Church…the rock upon which the church was built. Think it is an identify issue?

 

[RosalieM]

I had never heard of this song until today and I wish I could have never known about it. The lyrics are childish and irreverent. I think I might actually feel sick to just be in a church while that song is sung.

Well singing ‘Lord of the Dance’ would be a sure way not to attract this Protestant. I would however much rather sing ‘A Mighty Fortress’ than ‘On Eagles’ Wings’. One thing I find attractive about the Catholic Church is the abundance of beauty. Beauty seems to be missing from the singing of many Protestant and Catholic churches.

Precisely why I can’t bring myself to sing it…ever…and I apologize for even posting those lyrics.
As a Catholic in a choir festival, I’ve sung “A Mighty Fortress” and it was quite powerful with the accompanying orchestra. And yes, we can all use a lot more beauty in our music – but when it does happen, it’s wonderful. Last night we practiced “The Lord Bless You and Keep You” and I had to close my eyes at the song’s “Amen’s” at the ending. It was so moving.

 

[liturgyluver]

I like “I Don’t Know How to Love Him” but it is not appropriate for a Catholic Mass.

If “Lord of the Dance” is okay, what about “Rock of Ages”? How come we gave a yes to the first and a nay to the latter? The ROCK is poetic…could mean God, Christ…or the Catholic Church…the rock upon which the church was built. Think it is an identify issue?

I love Rock of Ages and it is in all the Catholic hymnals in the UK. Sung to the tune Redhead it is just so sublime and moving. I didn’t think the reference to Rock was controversial but the line “Nothing in my hand I bring, simply to they cross I cling” which suggests only the grace of God of is needed. Anyway, I still love it.

 

[ProVobis]

I love Rock of Ages and it is in all the Catholic hymnals in the UK. Sung to the tune Redhead it is just so sublime and moving.

Okay but here’s a question: Would it be more or less moving if it were sung to the tune Amazing Grace? No point, just curious as an ex-aspiring organist.

 

[Blacksword]

I agree that “Lord of the Dance” is difficult to sing, especially the “devil on your back” lyric, ugghhh! However, I humbly ask that great hymns, when theologically acceptable, whether Protestant or Catholic, be sung MORE, not less. Less OPC stuff…how about “And Can it Be” or “It is Well”? Wesley wrote some great hymns, and if Luther’s hymn can appear in most Catholic hymnals, why not Spurgeon’s? It would be a shame to not have these great hymns sung in parishes just because they are from a Protestant tradition. Having said that, I’m not a fan of “Amazing Grace”, I’m a tenor after all, and singing endless a’s below middle C is dull and uninspiring! And can we please get some hymnals that have SATB arrangements in them? The dumbing down of American musical education and culture is depressing! I bought a Catholic hymnal myself that has much of what is sung in my parish but has the SATB parts and bring it with me every Sunday. I then have to check what’s on the hymn list and cross reference in my hymnal to see where it is just to sing the tenor line and, hopefully, in the process help to add a little of what always should have been there: harmonizing voices in four parts!

 

[liturgyluver]

Okay but here’s a question: Would it be more or less moving if it were sung to the tune Amazing Grace? No point, just curious as an ex-aspiring organist.

Good question! Definately less moving. It’s often sung to the tune petra which I also dislike. There is something just magical about the tune and lyric combination. It’s like Jesu lover of my Soul sung to Aberystwyth.

 

[Nicea325]

Hi, on another thread I saw that there were mulitple people claiming that Amazing Grace is not suitable for Church because it is “protestant”.

My question is, since the actual lyrics of Amazing Grace are theologically sound and it is an uplifting song, why do some people consider it innapropriate?

I realize that it was originally written by a protestant, but why should that prevent us from using it? The tradition of Christmas Trees came from other religions as well. The Catholic Church adapts traditions/practices etc from other religions all the time. So long as there is nothing heretical in the lyrics, how can it be innapropriate?

I ignore such foolishness! Some people are always out to judge or give their two cents about everything. So many people simply judge and have nothing to do with any ministry. The old cliche: If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.

 

[ProVobis]

Good question! Definately less moving. It’s often sung to the tune petra which I also dislike. There is something just magical about the tune and lyric combination. It’s like Jesu lover of my Soul sung to Aberystwyth.

Good answer. Makes me wonder if it would be more magical if John Newton’s lyrics were sung to the Redhead tune.

 

[RosalieM]

It’s a poem.

It’s not about Jesus dancing, or anyone dancing. This is poetical language and should not be taken literally.

Remember “a tree who may in summer wear a nest of robins in her hair.”

Trees don’t have hair.

And trees don’t “wear” anything.

It’s poetry.

I can understand that if someone uses English as a second language, they may not recognize poetry when they see/hear it.

But someone who was born and raised in the United States or any country where English is used should be able to distinguish poetical language from other uses of language., and they should know that poetry should NOT be interpreted literally. This ability to recognize poetry should be learned when a child is in middle school, or possibly high school. But it should be learned, for it is a useful skill to know whether someone is talking about a hairy tree (freaky and frightening!) or just using a very lovely poetical phrase to describe the tree in the back yard.

Someone who insists that the hymn “Lord of the Dance” is talking about Jesus “dancing” will give an impression of ignorance, and make it difficult for others to take any of their claims seriously. This could compromise the person’s Christian witness.

If you don’t like the poem, that’s OK. But please recognize that others DO like it. I love “Lord of the Dance,” and appreciate the beautiful imagery in the poem.

I understand that it’s using poetic imagery. It is still inappropriate to use the analogy of Jesus dancing. Just because it’s written as poetry doesn’t mean it’s good poetry. Anyone who has a knowledge of poetry would recognize the clumsy inappropriateness of these lyrics. Simplistic rhyme, trivialising the greatest sacrifice. Even the music, though really good, is inappropriate for the concept of the Crucifixion and Resurrection. Please.
I can’t discussi this further. I’m off this thread. God bless.

 

[liturgyluver]

Good answer. Makes me wonder if it would be more magical if John Newton’s lyrics were sung to the Redhead tune.

Luckily the words don’t fit the tune.

 

[ProVobis]

Luckily the words don’t fit the tune.

You’re right but that won’t stop them from trying on the ones they can’t get them to sing to. But therein lies a problem with a lot of lyrics, especially the translated ones. It’s not easy to find the right combination of lyrics and tunes for the repeat stuff. Maybe that’s why they invented descants for the third and fourth verses.

 

[Irishgal49]

Our choir sings it from time to time and people love it.
If you research the history of this song, it is very interesting. The last verse of the song speaks of the mystery of time in the spiritual sense. I don’t understand how anyone can object to this music.

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

T’was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come;
'Tis Grace that brought me safe thus far
and Grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me.
His word my hope secures.
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

When we’ve been here ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun.
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’ve first begun.

I appreciate the sentiment and salvation in God the writer found, I am tired of the song, it’s like it’s the only song people know. 25 times a year is too much.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

I appreciate the sentiment and salvation in God the writer found, I am tired of the song, it’s like it’s the only song people know. 25 times a year is too much.

And if you think that’s bad, organists have to hear it a whole lot more. Amazing Grace has made it on my list of most hated hymns by now.

 

[Irishgal49]

I understand that it’s using poetic imagery. It is still inappropriate to use the analogy of Jesus dancing. Just because it’s written as poetry doesn’t mean it’s good poetry. Anyone who has a knowledge of poetry would recognize the clumsy inappropriateness of these lyrics. Simplistic rhyme, trivialising the greatest sacrifice. Even the music, though really good, is inappropriate for the concept of the Crucifixion and Resurrection. Please.
I can’t discussi this further. I’m off this thread. God bless.

What’s wrong with Jesus dancing? He went to a wedding, are you saying He never danced?

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Even though you were raised in a very traditional setting, in which hymns like Amazing Grace would have been considered “mortal sin,”, this strict conservativism in your catechesis apparently wasn’t sufficient to keep you committed to Holy Mother Church. You said you were “away from the Church for many years.”

I run across that all the time on this forum. Posters rail against “modernism,” but then admit that they departed the Church back during a time when there was no modernism and everything was in Latin and chant was the only music at Mass.

So if this “traditional” approach is so stellar and worked so well, then why did these people leave? It apparently didn’t work for them…

It wasn’t during the traditional setting that everyone left, it was after the modernism moved in that people became confused and left.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

We probably wouldn’t have to have these debates and wonder if songs were heretical or inappropriate to sing if more songs chosen at mass were already Catholic. Many songs written by protestants are going to be based on protestant theology and run the risk of saying something that goes against Catholic teaching. Best to just keep it Catholic. We already have many Catholics who are unaware of the true teachings of the Church, don’t think we need to add more confusion.

Also, many times music is chosen by it’s ease of singing or it’s popularity not whether it is theologically sound.

Just a thought.

 

[felsguy]

When my grandson suffered from colic, for about six months as I recall, I was the only one who had much success at calming him. I did so by rocking him for hours on end while softly humming in his ear, alternating between Amazing Grace and Oh Shenandoah over and over ad nauseam. I don’t think I harmed him any theologically but I worry that he may someday want to move to Missouri.

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