Amazing Grace innapropriate for Church?

[pnewton]

We probably wouldn’t have to have these debates and wonder if songs were heretical or inappropriate to sing if more songs chosen at mass were already Catholic.

I still think you would have people debating music. There are some here who argue that chant alone should be used. If we went all to chant, there would be those who argue against polyphonic chant and think we should all use plainchant. Such is the nature of music. We all have our opinions and can be rather emotional at times about them.

 

[Bix]

I LOVE this song. Makes my soul smile. thank you for posting the lyrics! ( my neighbor may want earplugs by tomorrow though )

Another southern fave, “Amen” , gospel style- yup! Some things are missed, but I had to push for that one even at the old baptist church. However, the children were singing and they loved it- which is why I love it!

Our choir sings it from time to time and people love it.
If you research the history of this song, it is very interesting. The last verse of the song speaks of the mystery of time in the spiritual sense. I don’t understand how anyone can object to this music.

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

T’was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come;
'Tis Grace that brought me safe thus far
and Grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me.
His word my hope secures.
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

When we’ve been here ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun.
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’ve first begun.

 

[liturgyluver]

We probably wouldn’t have to have these debates and wonder if songs were heretical or inappropriate to sing if more songs chosen at mass were already Catholic. Many songs written by protestants are going to be based on protestant theology and run the risk of saying something that goes against Catholic teaching. Best to just keep it Catholic. We already have many Catholics who are unaware of the true teachings of the Church, don’t think we need to add more confusion.

Also, many times music is chosen by it’s ease of singing or it’s popularity not whether it is theologically sound.

Just a thought.

This would be a hugely retrograde step. I would say that 80% of traditional hymnody was written by Protestants - from the mainline denominations - and in 79% of this there is no anti-catholic theology. I can’t imagine Christmas without Hark the hearald angels, or while shepherds watched their flocks to give just one small example.

Catholic hymnals started to include protestant works in the 1920s. I would suggest that we need regulation of all hymns and some inappropriate stuff has actually been written by Catholics and is the modern stuff you hear at mass today.

 

[Cat]

My departure from the Church had nothing to do with traditionalism. I became a Merchant Seaman on a non-US freighter at a very early age (15) and then into the US Navy at age 19During my first enlistment, I think I saw a Catholic Chaplin only once, and was rarely in port on a Sunday. About the only religious ritual I saw was the traditional, though unofficial 1/2 day off on Good Friday. by the time I came ashore to get an education, I had lost all contact with the Church. After College, back to sea to earn a living. By the time I came ashore for good, my faith was but a dim memory. It was only after being on my death bed in a VA hospital and receiving the last rites from a priest that I came back to the faith when I survived. All of my early Catholic training came back in a great rush, but with the sense of humility and and obedience to accept the changes that had occured post Vatican II. Although I thoroughly appreciate and affectionally remember the Mass and Sacriments in Latin, I have very little patience with those schismatics who are more Catholic than the Pope! They seem to forget that it is incumbant upon Catholics to obey their Priests and Bishops in matters of Faith, and not to argue with them. Christ said it very well when he call upon us all to be like little children.

Oh, but I never said that you left the Church because of traditionalism.

I said that you left the Church in spite of traditionalism.

Here’s the quote from my post: “…this strict conservativism in your catechesis apparently wasn’t sufficient to keep you committed to Holy Mother Church.”

People depart from the Catholic Church, both EF and OF parishes, even if their parish is above reproach, excellent in all things, without fault in the liturgy in the Masses, and full of friendly, truly-loving people.

This happens in Protestant churches, too. The best, trendiest, friendliest, most Bible-teaching and preaching Protestant churches from ALL denominations lose members.

There are many reasons why people leave their church, and you have described a very common situation–people grow up and gradually lose contact with religion.

The point of my post to you is to remind people on this forum that traditionalism no guarantee that people will stick with the Church. Long before Vatican II, people were leaving the Catholic Church. Am I correct? I wish I wasn’t, but I’m pretty certain that I speak facts.

For that matter, modernism and modern innovations are no guarantee that people will stick with a church. Many of the most rapidly-growing “modern” Protestant megachurches in the U.S. will admit that in spite of presenting the best in contemporary music, the most exciting service projects and social events, and the most popular preachers and teachers in the world each week, they lose almost as many people as they gain every week.

 

[Cat]

What does my above post have to do with Amazing Grace?

Music is powerful. This is something that I learned back when I was Protestant. In the evangelical churches that I grew up and played piano in, music is “used” to create emotions and evoke responses from the people. Is that “right” or “wrong?” I don’t think it matters. It happens.

This week, our diocese installed our new bishop, and the music (traditional) was brilliant, sublime, and masterfully-done. It created strong emotions and evoked a tremendous positive response from the people. Was the music director wrong to do this? I don’t think so. What’s the alternative? Selecting dull music and using a tiny choir and an out-of-tune piano so that no one would become emotional over the music? How silly!

I was a volunteer in Vacation Bible School for over 30 years while Protestant. One of the things that I learned is that the children forget a lot of what they learn, but they REMEMBER two things: the Bible verses, and the SONGS.

Although I have a very difficult time remembering song lyrics now that I am older, I still remember the first VBS “theme song” that I ever learned back in 2nd grade: God Can Do Anything, sung to the tune of “Will There Be Any Stars?”, a truly lovely melody.

I remember many of the songs that we sang in VBS while I was growing up. We used to sing Fairest Lord Jesus (you might know the song as Beautiful Savior) using a giant picture book. When I was older, I FOUND one of those picture books in a church that I attended, and I was given permission to keep the book–I still have it. I remember the words and the pictures to this day.

My point is this–during their times of corporate worship (for Catholics, that is the Mass), it is important for Christians to sing stirring songs that not only teach them the truth about their faith, but that encourage their hearts and souls after they leave the church building.

I believe Amazing Grace is one of those songs. I also believe that many of the traditional Catholic hymns like Immaculate Mary also fit into this category of stirring songs. And I believe that many of the modern Catholic hymns fit this category when they are done correctly.

When people, especially children, sings these good songs during Mass (or hear them from a good choir), they will walk out the door and remember these songs long after they have forgotten everything the priest taught in his homily.

When they are living out their lives through the weeks and years, they will hum these songs.

When they are tempted to sin, they will recall these songs and possibly the songs will be used by the Holy Spirit to help them to resist the temptation.

And when they are away from the Church and/or their faith for any reason, these songs will remain in their memories and if they happen to hear that song somewhere–in a movie, perhaps, or as they walk by a church downtown, ALL those memories will come back to them, and they will hopefully be drawn BACK to faith and church.

Here’s what I think, as an ex-Protestant and a musician–in an OF Mass, music directors have four chances to touch the people. Only four. They need to make their four selections with great care, and select songs that will make an eternal impact. And once they have selected those four hymns, they need to make sure that they are sung and played with excellence, in the correct style for the hymn, and with great clarity, so that the people will be able to walk out the door and hum the hymn and remember the words and be encouraged in their soul for the rest of their lives.

 

[AthenaC]

When my grandson suffered from colic, for about six months as I recall, I was the only one who had much success at calming him. I did so by rocking him for hours on end while softly humming in his ear, alternating between Amazing Grace and Oh Shenandoah over and over ad nauseam. I don’t think I harmed him any theologically but I worry that he may someday want to move to Missouri.

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I did the same thing with both my kids, except my selections were Amazing Grace, the song from Hunt for the Red October, the Soviet National Anthem, Ave Maria, and a couple syrupy Chinese pop love songs. My oldest so far shows no signs of being a Communist.

 

[ProVobis]

Here’s what I think, as an ex-Protestant and a musician–in an OF Mass, music directors have four chances to touch the people. Only four.

At 3-5 minutes a hymn plus the sermon, that’s quite a chunk cut out of the Mass itself. Isn’t the Mass itself what should touch the people and INSPIRE MUSIC, rather than the other way around?

 

[Cat]

At 3-5 minutes a hymn plus the sermon, that’s quite a chunk cut out of the Mass itself. Isn’t the Mass itself what should touch the people and INSPIRE MUSIC, rather than the other way around?

Yes, but we’re talking about the vast majority of people, not people like you or me who understand exactly what the Mass is and that Jesus is Truly Present. People like you and me, and many others who are involved with this thread will be touched not by the externals like music or homily, but by Christ Himself as we receive Him. Good music and an excellent homily would just be extra delight.

And yes, the Mass, or should I say, Jesus Truly Present, should inspire the music, and that’s all the more reason for the music to be as excellent as the parish is capable of. No throw-aways.

Good music will create an emotional response in people with a more superfluous religion, which may inspire them to dig deeper into their faith and Church, and thus grow closer to Jesus and more committed to Him and His Church.

Not-so-good music will merely give people an excuse to tune out the Mass and go through the motions, and forget all about Who they have received once they leave the church building and turn their iPod on to hear some good music.

 

[Roy5]

Gosh, I find many ‘Protestant hymns’ are sung when I attend mass, even “A Mighty Fortress” by Martin Luther. Then you have the Battle Hymn of the Republic", “Christ the Lord Is Risen Today”, “We Gather Together”, “In Christ There Is No East or West”, “Hark, the Herald Angels Sing”, “O Little Town of Bethlehem” “For the Beauty of the Earth”, “Lord of the Dance”, “Softly and Tenderly”, “Fill My Cup, Lord” - and scores more.

Why the concern about "Amazing Grace" when so many 'Protestant hymns' are sung? Some of them are my favorites, such as "How Great Thou Art", "America, the Beautiful" and "Be Still My Soul". They are first and foremost Christian hymns and it would be silly, arrogant, and bigoted to ignore them. Protestant hymnals have many 'Catholic hymns'. Don't we have the same God? Of course!

Just repeating my post early on. 

Remember, too, that John Newton had been a slave ship captain. When his life was in danger during a horrendous storm at sea, he promised God that if his life were spared, he would give up that notorious business and become a clergyman. He kept his word. So, 'wretch' applies to his earlier life. I always have been a bit uncomfortable with it but this explanation helped.

By the way, Protestantism has a wide range of belief when it comes to salvation. Some believe once saved, always saved. Some combine faith and works (Methodists, for example). Most mainline Protestants son't get hung-up on such theological issues. Jesus said love God and love one another, the bottom line of Christianity. 

Personally, I love the hymn "Amazing Grace" along with several hundred others. How does the old saying go: "To sing a hymn is a pray twice"? Something like that. It's sad that so many congregations sing so poorly. What a superb way to praise the Lord.

 

[ProVobis]

Gosh, I find many ‘Protestant hymns’ are sung when I attend mass, even “A Mighty Fortress” by Martin Luther. Then you have the Battle Hymn of the Republic", “Christ the Lord Is Risen Today”, “We Gather Together”, “In Christ There Is No East or West”, “Hark, the Herald Angels Sing”, “O Little Town of Bethlehem” “For the Beauty of the Earth”, “Lord of the Dance”, “Softly and Tenderly”, “Fill My Cup, Lord” - and scores more.

Why the concern about "Amazing Grace" when so many 'Protestant hymns' are sung? Some of them are my favorites, such as "How Great Thou Art", "America, the Beautiful" and "Be Still My Soul". They are first and foremost Christian hymns and it would be silly, arrogant, and bigoted to ignore them. Protestant hymnals have many 'Catholic hymns'. Don't we have the same God? Of course!

But these can be played on the radio or tv or in other secular environments. What makes them most appropriate for Mass and for all Catholic cultures, English and non-English? If it’s just for the English-speaking, that’s a certain amount of arrogance right there, isn’t it?

 

[englishredrose]

well all i can say then if Catholics think that Amazing Grace shouldn’t be sung in a Catholic church then they shouldn’t be singing Jerusalem at all because it wasn’t actually a hymn in the first instance. It was a poem that Parry put tune to. We love questioning people about Jerusalem and ‘we’ know it not a hymn but its a good one to get people with when talking about what are hymns and what are suitable hymns etc

 

[liturgyluver]

But these can be played on the radio or tv or in other secular environments. What makes them most appropriate for Mass and for all Catholic cultures, English and non-English? If it’s just for the English-speaking, that’s a certain amount of arrogance right there, isn’t it?

I’m sorry - but what a thing to say! Is it arrogant then for the Italians to sing Italian hymns in Italian churches or the Germans to sing German hymns in German churches.

If the majority of the parishioners come from a different background then certainly have hymns from that lingusitic tradition, but just because there might be some people from a different background present at mass doesn’t mean that everyone should be condemned to silence.

When I travel to Europe I don’t expect to sing English hymns, but the hymns of the Country I am in, and that’s what people sing, the hymns in their own languages. Both my parents are non-English by birth but would be very angry if what you are suggesting took place.

 

[ProVobis]

Is it arrogant then for the Italians to sing Italian hymns in Italian churches or the Germans to sing German hymns in German churches.

To some extent, I think so.

When I attend the Spanish Mass, I hear them sing “Sons of God.” Now how do I know that? Only because of the melody. I don’t even know if it’s translated properly; I certainly know any poetic attributes (alliteration, rhyme, pentameter, etc.) have been destroyed. And only they know what they singing and the song has a different meaning for them, I suppose, and they want to protect that meaning for themselves. That’s only natural, no?

 

[liturgyluver]

To some extent, I think so.

When I attend the Spanish Mass, I hear them sing “Sons of God.” Now how do I know that? Only because of the melody. I don’t even know if it’s translated properly; I certainly know any poetic attributes (alliteration, rhyme, pentameter, etc.) have been destroyed. And only they know what they singing and the song has a different meaning for them, I suppose, and they want to protect that meaning for themselves. That’s only natural, no?

I don’t think they want to protect the meaning - surely they just want to sing in Spanish, beacuse most of them speak Spanish. If you came to Italy and asked all those questions they would just say: look you are in Italy, in Italy we sing in Italian, and if you don’t like it then leave, or go to a mass without music!

 

[ProVobis]

I don’t think they want to protect the meaning - surely they just want to sing in Spanish, beacuse most of them speak Spanish. If you came to Italy and asked all those questions they would just say: look you are in Italy, in Italy we sing in Italian, and if you don’t like it then leave, or go to a mass without music!

As they say in Italy: traduttore tradittore (or however it’s spelled) It sure sounds good, whatever it means.

 

[liturgyluver]

As they say in Italy: traduttore tradittore (or however it’s spelled) It sure sounds good, whatever it means.

It always sounds good in Italian.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

.

The point of my post to you is to remind people on this forum that traditionalism no guarantee that people will stick with the Church. Long before Vatican II, people were leaving the Catholic Church. Am I correct? I wish I wasn’t, but I’m pretty certain that I speak facts…

The facts and statistics show that more people have left the church since modernism came in than before. Yes, people did leave before but not in the volumes they have in the last 40 years. To not see that is not seeing the facts.

For that matter, modernism and modern innovations are no guarantee that people will stick with a church. Many of the most rapidly-growing “modern” Protestant megachurches in the U.S. will admit that in spite of presenting the best in contemporary music, the most exciting service projects and social events, and the most popular preachers and teachers in the world each week, they lose almost as many people as they gain every week…

I agree with this. Many protestant mega churches will brag about how many members they have but what is really happening is people church hop from mega church to mega church depending on the pastor, the sermon and the music. As an ex-protestant who attended these in the past, sad to say many of the members are catholics who have fallen under false teachings of the protestant churches and no longer know what the Catholic church teaches but have been decieved and one of the main ways they do their teaching is through the words of the music. Music has meaning.

.When they are living out their lives through the weeks and years, they will hum these songs
When they are tempted to sin, they will recall these songs and possibly the songs will be used by the Holy Spirit to help them to resist the temptation.

And when they are away from the Church and/or their faith for any reason, these songs will remain in their memories and if they happen to hear that song somewhere–in a movie, perhaps, or as they walk by a church downtown, ALL those memories will come back to them, and they will hopefully be drawn BACK to faith and church.

…they need to make sure that they are sung and played with excellence, in the correct style for the hymn, and with great clarity, so that the people will be able to walk out the door and hum the hymn and remember the words and be encouraged in their soul for the rest of their lives…

Okay then, if this is true and people are so moved by the songs they hear, then you must admit the songs should definitely not teach protestsant or secular thinking but Catholic thinking, so when they are out in the world and they are tempted or asked to attend a protestant church or leave the Catholic church the music that comes back to them will speak of the truths of the Catholic church and keep them solid in their faith, so they wouldn’t even dream of leaving Holy Mother Church, the Eucharist, Our Blessed Mother, the saints and all.

At 3-5 minutes a hymn plus the sermon, that’s quite a chunk cut out of the Mass itself. Isn’t the Mass itself what should touch the people and INSPIRE MUSIC, rather than the other way around?

I totally agree with this, it is Mass that should inspire the people and what is happening at Mass is what should inspire the choices of music.

 

[Cat]

The facts and statistics show that more people have left the church since modernism came in than before. Yes, people did leave before but not in the volumes they have in the last 40 years. To not see that is not seeing the facts.

Ah, but is modernism in the liturgy the cause?

That’s the question, and I think that to assume that people leave because of modernism (e.g., singing hymns like Amazing Grace in the Mass) is too simplistic.

There are many reasons why people leave the Catholic Church or a Protestant church. Lots of CAF threads have dealt with this.

I think that people in general have become more emboldened to reject God or at least, reject what they call “organized religion.”

It used to be that the consequences of leaving your church were devastating–breaking your family’s heart, losing friends and business contacts, losing your reputation. A Catholic parish used to be much more close-knit, almost like a community or family, and to depart from it was to become an outcast. Same for a lot of Protestant churches.

Now it often doesn’t matter if someone rejects their family religion. The Church is fragmented and many people don’t know anyone in their parish. Many people don’t have an intact family to mourn over them, and in most families, a member who rejects religion is still included in the family gatherings with not a word said. Religion is not a factor in the business world. And reputation doesn’t matter in a world where we can get away with almost anything.

Okay then, if this is true and people are so moved by the songs they hear, then you must admit the songs should definitely not teach protestsant or secular thinking but Catholic thinking, so when they are out in the world and they are tempted or asked to attend a protestant church or leave the Catholic church the music that comes back to them will speak of the truths of the Catholic church and keep them solid in their faith, so they wouldn’t even dream of leaving Holy Mother Church, the Eucharist, Our Blessed Mother, the saints and all.

Yes, of course. The question is, is Amazing Grace a “Catholic” song?

I think it is, and so do others on this thread. (And additionally, I think that Lord of the Dance is a very Catholic song, although I will agree that it probably isn’t a very good choice for Mass hymn because it’s difficult to sing properly in a large, mainly un-musical congregation.)

 

[Diana_Catherine]

That’s the question, and I think that to assume that people leave because of modernism (e.g., singing hymns like Amazing Grace in the Mass) is too simplistic

There are many reasons why people leave the Catholic Church or a Protestant church. Lots of CAF threads have dealt with this.

I think that people in general have become more emboldened to reject God or at least, reject what they call “organized religion.” .

True, there are many reasons today why people leave the Catholic church. IMHO I believe divorce and re-marriage is a big one and the rejection of God, busyness, too many other things to do and other reasons but most usually can be traced back to our “modern” culture.

It used to be that the consequences of leaving your church were devastating–breaking your family’s heart, losing friends and business contacts, losing your reputation. A Catholic parish used to be much more close-knit, almost like a community or family, and to depart from it was to become an outcast. Same for a lot of Protestant churches.

Now it often doesn’t matter if someone rejects their family religion. The Church is fragmented and many people don’t know anyone in their parish. Many people don’t have an intact family to mourn over them, and in most families, a member who rejects religion is still included in the family gatherings with not a word said. Religion is not a factor in the business world. And reputation doesn’t matter in a world where we can get away with almost anything. .

All this still goes back to our modern society and there are still famlies that are very upset and broken hearted over their families leaving the Catholic church. Any Catholic who knows that the Catholic church is where one finds salvation should be upset and very concerned when their children leave God.
.
Rejecting the Catholic church is not just rejecting the “family religion” it is rejecting salvation. Many parents are very saddened and heart broken but bear it in silence.

Getting involved in parish activities can be one way to get to know other parish members

The question is, is Amazing Grace a “Catholic” song?

I think it is, and so do others on this thread. (And additionally, I think that Lord of the Dance is a very Catholic song, although I will agree that it probably isn’t a very good choice for Mass hymn because it’s difficult to sing properly in a large, mainly un-musical congregation.)

I am sorry I disagree and as much as I like everyone on this thread I believe they are wrong and Catholic teaching shows this. It is not just an opinion.

Amazing Grace sings about us being wretches. That is Luther and Calvinist theology. Martin Luther said, " Human nature is like a dung heap covered by snow.”
Protestant theology teaches that because of the fall we are evil and when we believe or make an act of faith God gives us his grace to make us good. Catholic teaching is different.

The Bible says we are made in the image of God and God said when he made man that it was good. Yes we sin but Catholic teaching says because of sin we are weakened and ruined but because we are made in God’s image we remain good. CCC 402-421.
The sin that weakened us is original sin but God promised never to desert us and we remain in the image of God. We are inclined to evil or pulled that way but not made wretches. To me that is awesome. God never leaves us to become a wretches. We are still loved and beautiful in God’s eyes.

Also, as a Catholic, I was baptized as an infant. Grace came to me and all the others who were and are baptized as infants before we believed.
Sanctifying grace comes through the sacraments, not through faith. Through sanctifying grace our souls are made holy and pleasing to God. It is an abiding or permanent grace, which we gain by baptism, and lose only by mortal sin.

Even if you are baptized as adult it is not your believing that give the grace:

Baltimore catechism:

1. Q. What is a Sacrament?
   A. A Sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.

Even our believing in God, is a gift of grace. Grace doesn’t come the moment I believe. I believe because of the grace of God.

So, No. You can call it Catholic all you want but it doesn’t make it Catholic, no matter how many people say it is. :yup:

 

[Roy5]

Just a quick point that may or may not be relevant.

One of my interests in recent years - since I have retired and have more time - is checking out various churches to see what's going on in the wider religious world.

In this area (I can't generalize) evangelical churches, especially new ones, have attracted many from the more traditional denominations. Judging by my quick surveys, many - perhaps even the majority - come from Catholic background.

In discussing why they have left the Church, the music is often cited. They will say something like "the Catholic Church was so formal, and the congregational singing was so poor." I myself find that the 'worship and praise segment' in these evangelical churches, usually led by live and lively singers and a full band, rather resembles a rock concert. 

 My experience to date is that such churches draw a large number of the middle-aged and especially young people. You will see a group of young adults and/or teenagers arriving together. And there are many families with young children, and the children are usually excused before the sermon to go off to a special program for them. 

 I find that they also like the general enthusiasm plus the informality and friendliness they encounter in these evangelical churches. Some say that they found the Mass rather humdrum, more or less repetitious, while the evangelical churches seemed more spiritual, more enthusiastically committed to Christ, more joyful, something to anticipate each weekend. Some even like the lack of vestments and other aspects of a typical Mass.

  Make of this what you will. These churches tend to sing praise songs, and not standard hymns. Once in a while they include "Amazing Grace" or "I Surrender All" or "Only Trust Him" etc.

  Personally, I find these evangelical churches largely preserves for their particular pastors, who serve as theological gurus. They (they rarely have women clergy) preache long homilies in a dramatic fashion that seems to carry weight. Most worshipers come with a Bible. My own sense is that the Bible teaching is rather primitive, if I may use that term, Fundamentalist may be another way of stating it. Usually more rhetoric and emotion than solid gospel messages. Prosperity gospel sometimes is preached.