Amazing Grace innapropriate for Church?

[Diana_Catherine]

Just a quick point that may or may not be relevant.

One of my interests in recent years - since I have retired and have more time - is checking out various churches to see what's going on in the wider religious world.

In this area (I can't generalize) evangelical churches, especially new ones, have attracted many from the more traditional denominations. Judging by my quick surveys, many - perhaps even the majority - come from Catholic background.

In discussing why they have left the Church, the music is often cited. They will say something like "the Catholic Church was so formal, and the congregational singing was so poor." I myself find that the 'worship and praise segment' in these evangelical churches, usually led by live and lively singers and a full band, rather resembles a rock concert. 

 My experience to date is that such churches draw a large number of the middle-aged and especially young people. You will see a group of young adults and/or teenagers arriving together. And there are many families with young children, and the children are usually excused before the sermon to go off to a special program for them. 

 I find that they also like the general enthusiasm plus the informality and friendliness they encounter in these evangelical churches. Some say that they found the Mass rather humdrum, more or less repetitious, while the evangelical churches seemed more spiritual, more enthusiastically committed to Christ, more joyful, something to anticipate each weekend. Some even like the lack of vestments and other aspects of a typical Mass.

  Make of this what you will. These churches tend to sing praise songs, and not standard hymns. Once in a while they include "Amazing Grace" or "I Surrender All" or "Only Trust Him" etc.

  Personally, I find these evangelical churches largely preserves for their particular pastors, who serve as theological gurus. They (they rarely have women clergy) preache long homilies in a dramatic fashion that seems to carry weight. Most worshipers come with a Bible. My own sense is that the Bible teaching is rather primitive, if I may use that term, Fundamentalist may be another way of stating it. Usually more rhetoric and emotion than solid gospel messages. Prosperity gospel sometimes is preached.

Yes, it is all very entertaining and pleasant to the ears. Good music, uplifting entertainment. As a matter of fact, as an ex evangelical protestant, here is my list of fun and entertaining things I experienced there: hula hoops, popcorn, candy sales, tootsie roll pops offered at the door, Elvis Presley, clowns, volleyball, magic shows, The Apple Dumpling Gang, grand Christmas shows, game shows, skits and plays, crude interpretation of Jesus, and the list goes on and on but the big draw in besides the uplifting and wonderful powerpoint sermon is the music. You see the louder you sing a worship song, the more you mean it and so the more you are worshiping. In order to get a group singing good and loud you need to play popular, fun music and promote a little wrong theology at the same time. The sad thing is people don’t realize they are being deceived and are missing the beauty of the truth found in the Catholic church. Fortunately for us God is wonderful and constantly leading us to Him.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Just a quick point that may or may not be relevant.

One of my interests in recent years - since I have retired and have more time - is checking out various churches to see what's going on in the wider religious world.

In this area (I can't generalize) evangelical churches, especially new ones, have attracted many from the more traditional denominations. Judging by my quick surveys, many - perhaps even the majority - come from Catholic background.

In discussing why they have left the Church, the music is often cited. They will say something like "the Catholic Church was so formal, and the congregational singing was so poor." I myself find that the 'worship and praise segment' in these evangelical churches, usually led by live and lively singers and a full band, rather resembles a rock concert. 

 My experience to date is that such churches draw a large number of the middle-aged and especially young people. You will see a group of young adults and/or teenagers arriving together. And there are many families with young children, and the children are usually excused before the sermon to go off to a special program for them. 

 I find that they also like the general enthusiasm plus the informality and friendliness they encounter in these evangelical churches. Some say that they found the Mass rather humdrum, more or less repetitious, while the evangelical churches seemed more spiritual, more enthusiastically committed to Christ, more joyful, something to anticipate each weekend. Some even like the lack of vestments and other aspects of a typical Mass.

  Make of this what you will. These churches tend to sing praise songs, and not standard hymns. Once in a while they include "Amazing Grace" or "I Surrender All" or "Only Trust Him" etc.

  Personally, I find these evangelical churches largely preserves for their particular pastors, who serve as theological gurus. They (they rarely have women clergy) preache long homilies in a dramatic fashion that seems to carry weight. Most worshipers come with a Bible. My own sense is that the Bible teaching is rather primitive, if I may use that term, Fundamentalist may be another way of stating it. Usually more rhetoric and emotion than solid gospel messages. Prosperity gospel sometimes is preached.

Having made the rounds of the Evangelical churches myself years ago, I can agree with much of what you say here, but too often Catholics don’t want to admit this. They will say well, they are leaving for the wrong reasons, etc., but the reality is they are leaving, and they have their own reasons, even if others don’t see them as legitimate reasons. So we do nothing to try to bring them back, or very little. We just criticize them for leaving.

Having said that, there is now a distinct move in the opposite direction in the past few years. People are tired of superficial preaching, the prosperity gospel, etc., and many Catholics are returning to the Church, and bringing their fundamentalist and evangelical friends and family members with them. I help with RCIA in my parish, and I have noticed this happening. We are seeing former evangelicals come into the Church and then the next year they show up sponsoring a friend or relative. I cannot even tell you how many people I know that left the Church in the 70’s and 80’s that have returned, including me. And when they return, they are much stronger in their faith than before (and know more Bible than when they left).

But most of the time the people who leave Church, whether it is Catholic or Protestant, do so because they got lazy and quit going, or don’t feel the need for it.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Having said that, there is now a distinct move in the opposite direction in the past few years. People are tired of superficial preaching, the prosperity gospel, etc., and many Catholics are returning to the Church, and bringing their fundamentalist and evangelical friends and family members with them. I help with RCIA in my parish, and I have noticed this happening. We are seeing former evangelicals come into the Church and then the next year they show up sponsoring a friend or relative. I cannot even tell you how many people I know that left the Church in the 70’s and 80’s that have returned, including me. And when they return, they are much stronger in their faith than before (and know more Bible than when they left)…

I think that is very good to hear and I am a returner also.

 

[Cat]

Amazing Grace sings about us being wretches. That is Luther and Calvinist theology. Martin Luther said, " Human nature is like a dung heap covered by snow.”
Protestant theology teaches that because of the fall we are evil and when we believe or make an act of faith God gives us his grace to make us good. Catholic teaching is different.

The Bible says we are made in the image of God and God said when he made man that it was good. Yes we sin but Catholic teaching says because of sin we are weakened and ruined but because we are made in God’s image we remain good. CCC 402-421.
The sin that weakened us is original sin but God promised never to desert us and we remain in the image of God. We are inclined to evil or pulled that way but not made wretches. To me that is awesome. God never leaves us to become a wretches. We are still loved and beautiful in God’s eyes.

What definition of “wretch” are you using?

The way I read your post, you are saying that the word “wretch” means someone who is “totally depraved” or “intrinsically evil.” This would be the Calvinist viewpoint of human beings–totally incapable of being good.

But this isn’t the accepted definition of the word “wretch” or “wretched.”

Miriam-Webster defines wretch as 1:a miserable person : one who is profoundly unhappy or in great misfortune 2: a base, despicable, or vile person

This says nothing about a condition that is intrinsic and impossible to overcome.

Personally, I think that both of those dictionary definitions of “wretch” aptly describe a Christian (by baptism) who is mired down in a sinful lifestyle, as John Newton was.

I think you are trying too hard to make Amazing Grace into a theological treatise. It is not. Newton is expressing his feelings over his life of sin, not describing a theological position. The fact that he says, “a wretch like me” makes it clear that he is describing his own personal feelings about himself, not mankind or mankind’s position before God.

Newton was not a Calvinist. He was an Anglican clergyman. I don’t know much about Anglicanism, since I live in the U.S., but from the little I know, the theology of Anglicans regarding salvation is nearer to the Catholic position than it is to the Calvinist position.

 

[Cat]

Also, as a Catholic, I was baptized as an infant. Grace came to me and all the others who were and are baptized as infants before we believed.
Sanctifying grace comes through the sacraments, not through faith. Through sanctifying grace our souls are made holy and pleasing to God. It is an abiding or permanent grace, which we gain by baptism, and lose only by mortal sin.

Even if you are baptized as adult it is not your believing that give the grace:

Baltimore catechism:

1. Q. What is a Sacrament?
   A. A Sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.

Even our believing in God, is a gift of grace. Grace doesn’t come the moment I believe. I believe because of the grace of God.

So, No. You can call it Catholic all you want but it doesn’t make it Catholic, no matter how many people say it is. :yup:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Paragraph 161, says, “Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent Him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.” Since "without faith, it is impossible to please God and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life “but he who endures to the end.”

Yes, the Sacraments confer the grace, but it is our faith that causes us to go to church and receive the Sacraments, especially the Sacraments of Holy Communion and Reconciliation.

There is sanctifying grace, and there is also habitual grace, which, according to the Catechism, demands man’s free response. See Catechism 1996-2005 for a marvelous description of “grace.” Paragraph 2005 makes it clear that “since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.”

Yes, you’re right, sanctifying grace doesn’t come the hour I first believe. And the song Amazing Grace says exactly that–grace does NOT come the hour you first believe.

The song says, “How precious did that grace appear the hour I first believed.” The very strong implication is that the grace was always there. Newton is saying exactly what the Catholic Church teaches–the GRACE was there, and when he finally recognized and believed this, that grace (the grace that had always been there since his baptism) appeared precious (inestimably valuable) to him.

He is NOT teaching that it is through our “belief” that we are “saved.”

Yes, you’re right, that faith is a gift of God. Both the Bible and the Catechism teach that. (Paragraph 162) of the Catechism states that “Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man.”

But this same paragraph (162) also says that “We can lose this priceless gift.” The paragraph goes on to say that “To live, grow, and persevere in the faith until the end, we must nourish it with the Word of God and we must beg God to increase our faith; it must be working through charity,” abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church."

In other words, there is definitely a human participation necessary in order for faith to grow.

Yes, you’re right, sanctifying grace comes through the Sacraments, but the grace to live the Christian life and remain true to Jesus and His Church comes through our faith, which is expressed through our works. We can’t just sit back and rest in our baptism.

It is only through faith that I recognize Christ’s True Presence in the Eucharist. As the Pange Lingua says (in English): Word made flesh, the bread of nature by His word to Flesh he turns; Wine into his Blood he changes. What though sense no change discerns? Only be the heart in earnest faith her lesson quickly learns. (italics mine)

If the teaching that “faith is not necessary to our salvation” is a Catholic teaching, then the Pange Lingua should also be stricken from the Catholic hymnals along with Amazing Grace.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

What definition of “wretch” are you using?

The way I read your post, you are saying that the word “wretch” means someone who is “totally depraved” or “intrinsically evil.” This would be the Calvinist viewpoint of human beings–totally incapable of being good.

But this isn’t the accepted definition of the word “wretch” or “wretched.” .

Well, here is a quote from John Newton:

More Than a “Calvinist”
by John Newton (1762)

But his strength is not his own; he is absolutely dependent, and is still encompassed with infirmities. and burdened with a depraved nature. If the Lord withdraws his power, he becomes weak as another man, and drops, as a stone sinks to the earth by its own weight. His inherent knowledge may be compared to the windows of a house, which can transmit the light, but cannot retain it. Without renewed and continual communications from the Spirit of grace, he is unable to withstand the smallest temptation, to endure the slightest trial, to perform the least service in a due manner, or even to think a good thought.

This is not the Catholic position. Yes we must be totally dependent on Our Lord and every good gift is from above but we are not burdened with a depraved nature. We are made in the image and God and are weakened by sin.

Miriam-Webster defines wretch as 1:a miserable person : one who is profoundly unhappy or in great misfortune 2: a base, despicable, or vile person

This says nothing about a condition that is intrinsic and impossible to overcome. .

Definition of despicable: Deserving hatred and contempt

Truly God does not see us that way.
.

I think you are trying too hard to make Amazing Grace into a theological treatise. It is not. Newton is expressing his feelings over his life of sin, not describing a theological position. The fact that he says, “a wretch like me” makes it clear that he is describing his own personal feelings about himself, not mankind or mankind’s position before God.

Newton was not a Calvinist. He was an Anglican clergyman. I don’t know much about Anglicanism, since I live in the U.S., but from the little I know, the theology of Anglicans regarding salvation is nearer to the Catholic position than it is to the Calvinist position.

It seems to me you are trying to make the song out to be Catholic when it is not. He was a great protestant Christian but he was not Catholic and because of that his theology is not Catholic.

 

[Stylites]

“Amazing Grace” and “Lord of the Dance” - both wonderful hymms for those predisposed to uplifting their souls to God rather than lifting up their differences from others.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Paragraph 161, says, “Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent Him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.” Since "without faith, it is impossible to please God and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life “but he who endures to the end.”

Yes, the Sacraments confer the grace, but it is our faith that causes us to go to church and receive the Sacraments, especially the Sacraments of Holy Communion and Reconciliation.

There is sanctifying grace, and there is also habitual grace, which, according to the Catechism, demands man’s free response. See Catechism 1996-2005 for a marvelous description of “grace.” Paragraph 2005 makes it clear that “since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.”

Yes, you’re right, sanctifying grace doesn’t come the hour I first believe. And the song Amazing Grace says exactly that–grace does NOT come the hour you first believe. .

How precious did that Grace appear…
the hour I first believed
Okay now you are confusing me because that is not how I read the lyrics.

The song says, “How precious did that grace appear the hour I first believed.” The very strong implication is that the grace was always there. Newton is saying exactly what the Catholic Church teaches–the GRACE was there, and when he finally recognized and believed this, that grace (the grace that had always been there since his baptism) appeared precious (inestimably valuable) to him.

He is NOT teaching that it is through our “belief” that we are “saved.” .

It seems to me you are making a whole sermon out of one line. You are trying to know the mind of John Newton by one line, instead of just taking the line for what it says.

Yes, you’re right, that faith is a gift of God. Both the Bible and the Catechism teach that. (Paragraph 162) of the Catechism states that “Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man.”

But this same paragraph (162) also says that “We can lose this priceless gift.” The paragraph goes on to say that “To live, grow, and persevere in the faith until the end, we must nourish it with the Word of God and we must beg God to increase our faith; it must be working through charity,” abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church."

In other words, there is definitely a human participation necessary in order for faith to grow.

Yes, you’re right, sanctifying grace comes through the Sacraments, but the grace to live the Christian life and remain true to Jesus and His Church comes through our faith, which is expressed through our works. We can’t just sit back and rest in our baptism.

It is only through faith that I recognize Christ’s True Presence in the Eucharist. As the Pange Lingua says (in English): Word made flesh, the bread of nature by His word to Flesh he turns; Wine into his Blood he changes. What though sense no change discerns? Only be the heart in earnest faith her lesson quickly learns. (italics mine)

If the teaching that “faith is not necessary to our salvation” is a Catholic teaching, then the Pange Lingua should also be stricken from the Catholic hymnals along with Amazing Grace.

No where did I say you sit back and rest in your baptism. That is the whole point I am making, we are not saved by faith alone or works alone. It is not our believing alone but it is not by works alone either. Of course once the grace of God is poured out on you in baptism you must believe and that believing comes because of God’s grace. Yes, there is believing but that is not when grace first appears and that is what the song says and you can’t make a whole sermon or pretend to know what someone from the 1700’s was thinking by reading just one line. You have to take it for what it says and understand he was a protestant and not Catholic. So you can’t say it is a Catholic song. He was not Catholic. Yes, Anglicanism is very similar to Catholicism and they are our brothers and sisters in Christ and I pray for our oneness. There are those coming into the Catholic church and it is wonderful.

Anglicanism:

XI. Of the Justification of Man.
We are accounted righteous before God, only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by Faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by Faith only, is a most wholesome Doctrine, and very full of comfort, as more largely is expressed in the Homily of Justification.

“He is likewise the author of that faith, by which alone you can come rightly to him.” John Newton February 28, 1794

In Matthew 12:37, Jesus puts any thought of justification by faith alone to rest: “. . . for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Tim Staples: We Can Work It Out This article is featured in This Rock Magazine Volume 20 Number 8.

And though I will read any comments you have I believe I will put this conversation to rest and pray you have a good day.

God bless.

 

[Cat]

How precious did that Grace appear…
the hour I first believed
Okay now you are confusing me because that is not how I read the lyrics.

It seems to me you are making a whole sermon out of one line. You are trying to know the mind of John Newton by one line, instead of just taking the line for what it says.

No where did I say you sit back and rest in your baptism. That is the whole point I am making, we are not saved by faith alone or works alone. It is not our believing alone but it is not by works alone either. Of course once the grace of God is poured out on you in baptism you must believe and that believing comes because of God’s grace. Yes, there is believing but that is not when grace first appears and that is what the song says and you can’t make a whole sermon or pretend to know what someone from the 1700’s was thinking by reading just one line. You have to take it for what it says and understand he was a protestant and not Catholic. So you can’t say it is a Catholic song. He was not Catholic. Yes, Anglicanism is very similar to Catholicism and they are our brothers and sisters in Christ and I pray for our oneness. There are those coming into the Catholic church and it is wonderful.

Anglicanism:

XI. Of the Justification of Man.
We are accounted righteous before God, only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by Faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by Faith only, is a most wholesome Doctrine, and very full of comfort, as more largely is expressed in the Homily of Justification.

“He is likewise the author of that faith, by which alone you can come rightly to him.” John Newton February 28, 1794

In Matthew 12:37, Jesus puts any thought of justification by faith alone to rest: “. . . for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Tim Staples: We Can Work It Out This article is featured in This Rock Magazine Volume 20 Number 8.

And though I will read any comments you have I believe I will put this conversation to rest and pray you have a good day.

God bless.

I will bow to your more extensive knowledge of theology.

I doubt it will make a difference, though, in whether or not Amazing Grace is included in the Mass at the majority of parishes. It’s a beloved hymn, and most people don’t think about theology when they sing or hear it. They think about how grateful they are for God’s grace.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

What definition of “wretch” are you using?

The way I read your post, you are saying that the word “wretch” means someone who is “totally depraved” or “intrinsically evil.” This would be the Calvinist viewpoint of human beings–totally incapable of being good.

But this isn’t the accepted definition of the word “wretch” or “wretched.”

Miriam-Webster defines wretch as 1:a miserable person : one who is profoundly unhappy or in great misfortune 2: a base, despicable, or vile person

This says nothing about a condition that is intrinsic and impossible to overcome.

Personally, I think that both of those dictionary definitions of “wretch” aptly describe a Christian (by baptism) who is mired down in a sinful lifestyle, as John Newton was.

I think you are trying too hard to make Amazing Grace into a theological treatise. It is not. Newton is expressing his feelings over his life of sin, not describing a theological position. The fact that he says, “a wretch like me” makes it clear that he is describing his own personal feelings about himself, not mankind or mankind’s position before God.

Newton was not a Calvinist. He was an Anglican clergyman. I don’t know much about Anglicanism, since I live in the U.S., but from the little I know, the theology of Anglicans regarding salvation is nearer to the Catholic position than it is to the Calvinist position.

Exactly. Language just as harsh - if not harsher - is found in writings and prayers composed by Catholic saints, as numerous citations in this thread have proven.

To object to the line “that saved a wretch like me” on the grounds that it’s Calvinist is just plain nonsensical.

Well, here is a quote from John Newton

Irrelevant. That’s the genetic fallacy.

It seems to me you are trying to make the song out to be Catholic when it is not. He was a great protestant Christian but he was not Catholic and because of that his theology is not Catholic.

Have you seen the quotes in this thread from prayers and writings of Catholic saints that speak of human beings as wretches just as “Amazing Grace” does? St. Thomas a Kempis has come up, and I believe St. Ambrose as well.

Check out the rest of the thread. The sort of language “Amazing Grace” uses is not foreign to Catholic Tradition and as such, does not necessarily imply the false Calvinist doctrine of total depravity. Have you ever read The Imitation of Christ?

How precious did that Grace appear…
the hour I first believed

How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Diana Catherine, do you see the word I emphasized above? “Precious.” It’s an adjective. That means that “appear” is a linking verb, a synonym for “seem” and not a word that can indicate when grace first came to the speaker.

This notion that the line implies we only have grace after we start believing is literally grammatically untenable.

These arguments against the song are worn, bad, and defunct. Why are some people so hell-bent on expunging it from use by Catholics?

 

[Stylites]

These arguments against the song are worn, bad, and defunct. Why are some people so hell-bent on expunging it from use by Catholics?

Hard to say. Protestants, too, are members of the Body of Christ. Perhaps there are people who are more concerned with converting AWAY from something than they are in converting TO something.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

. It’s a beloved hymn, and most people don’t think about theology when they sing or hear it. They think about how grateful they are for God’s grace.

I agree, that is what people think of when they hear the song.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Exactly. Language just as harsh - if not harsher - is found in writings and prayers composed by Catholic saints, as numerous citations in this thread have proven.

To object to the line “that saved a wretch like me” on the grounds that it’s Calvinist is just plain nonsensical.

Irrelevant. That’s the genetic fallacy.

Have you seen the quotes in this thread from prayers and writings of Catholic saints that speak of human beings as wretches just as “Amazing Grace” does? St. Thomas a Kempis has come up, and I believe St. Ambrose as well.

Check out the rest of the thread. The sort of language “Amazing Grace” uses is not foreign to Catholic Tradition and as such, does not necessarily imply the false Calvinist doctrine of total depravity. Have you ever read The Imitation of Christ?

How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Diana Catherine, do you see the word I emphasized above? “Precious.” It’s an adjective. That means that “appear” is a linking verb, a synonym for “seem” and not a word that can indicate when grace first came to the speaker.

This notion that the line implies we only have grace after we start believing is literally grammatically untenable.

These arguments against the song are worn, bad, and defunct. Why are some people so hell-bent on expunging it from use by Catholics?

A few things because I really didn’t want to debate this anymore.

I agree there probably are Catholics who have spoken of human nature the same way but that doesn’t mean that is what the Church teaches.

Also, it is hard to know the mind of a man who is no longer alive. We can only go by his other writings to possibly know what he meant. We can’t prove that isn’t what he meant.

I think many Catholics would like to hear music that speaks of their Catholic faith. We have 2000 years of history. We have so much music. Part of it is knowing that it is protestant and wondering where has the beautiful Catholic music gone?

Hard to say. Protestants, too, are members of the Body of Christ. Perhaps there are people who are more concerned with converting AWAY from something than they are in converting TO something.

Yes, you are right. Protestants are our brothers and sister in Christ. I am an ex-protestant myself .

We definitely need to pray for the oneness of Christian but we need to pray they come to the fullness of truth. Unfortunately just like everyone their souls are at stake and we should never just shake it off and say they are Christians and so part of the body of Christ and not witness the truth to them. A half truth can be more dangerous sometimes than an out and out lie.

The song Amazing Grace is always the song we sung whenever we as protestants talked about having an assurance of our salvation. Even Hollywood will play that song when pushing their agendas.

Whenever I sinned I would pull out that song and reassure myself I was going to heaven no matter what because that is what I was taught.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Diana Catherine, do you see the word I emphasized above? “Precious.” It’s an adjective. That means that “appear” is a linking verb, a synonym for “seem” and not a word that can indicate when grace first came to the speaker.

This notion that the line implies we only have grace after we start believing is literally grammatically untenable.

I tried to add this but ran out of time. Yes, I see what you are saying. Grace appeared precious to him as soon as he believed. Thanks, I see that now, though it is still happening due to an act of faith, what he called his “great turning day.” God’s grace can and should appear precious to us through the sacraments and our works along with our believing.

God bless.

 

[Cat]

I tried to add this but ran out of time. Yes, I see what you are saying. Grace appeared precious to him as soon as he believed. Thanks, I see that now, though it is still happening due to an act of faith, what he called his “great turning day.” God’s grace can and should appear precious to us through the sacraments and our works along with our believing.

God bless.

I’m glad that someone else was able to make this clear to you. I tried, but didn’t manage to phrase it correctly.

I honestly think that when Catholics are well-catechized in the parishes, they WILL sing this song and thank God for the precious grace that He pours out through His sacraments. I have never met a Catholic in my eight years of Catholicism who believes in “once saved, always saved,” or in “say a sinner’s prayer and you’re saved forever, no matter what.” Maybe I’ve been blessed with a good parish with good teachers and priests.

And again, even though they have been in the process of being converted since their baptism, almost every Catholic I meet can testify of a “conversion day” that happened, usually when they were older and more mature. On this day, everything about the Lord and their Church made sense to them, and they were able to internalize their Catholic faith and make a true and serious commitment to Jesus and His Church.

Obviously according to Catholic theology, this wasn’t the day they got saved.

But it was the day that they realized that they were Christians, and that means following Jesus and being His disciple.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

I’m glad that someone else was able to make this clear to you. I tried, but didn’t manage to phrase it correctly.

I honestly think that when Catholics are well-catechized in the parishes, they WILL sing this song and thank God for the precious grace that He pours out through His sacraments. I have never met a Catholic in my eight years of Catholicism who believes in “once saved, always saved,” or in “say a sinner’s prayer and you’re saved forever, no matter what.” Maybe I’ve been blessed with a good parish with good teachers and priests.

And again, even though they have been in the process of being converted since their baptism, almost every Catholic I meet can testify of a “conversion day” that happened, usually when they were older and more mature. On this day, everything about the Lord and their Church made sense to them, and they were able to internalize their Catholic faith and make a true and serious commitment to Jesus and His Church.

Obviously according to Catholic theology, this wasn’t the day they got saved.

But it was the day that they realized that they were Christians, and that means following Jesus and being His disciple.

I see what you are saying and I agree that most Catholics, if well catechised, don’t believe in once saved, always saved. It is the hearing that they could be that pulls them away when they are not well catechised.

As I said before the Catholic church has such a rich history of music to pull from that I pray will not be lost as it appears to be happening as we are bringing in so many non-Catholic hymns to replace them with. So many young Catholics are being brought up on non - Catholic hymns today.

I love the Catholic church and I love it’s beautiful music. Even as some are writing it today.

catholicmusic.co.uk/index.html

 

[guanophore]

Hi, on another thread I saw that there were mulitple people claiming that Amazing Grace is not suitable for Church because it is “protestant”.

My question is, since the actual lyrics of Amazing Grace are theologically sound and it is an uplifting song, why do some people consider it innapropriate?

I realize that it was originally written by a protestant, but why should that prevent us from using it? The tradition of Christmas Trees came from other religions as well. The Catholic Church adapts traditions/practices etc from other religions all the time. So long as there is nothing heretical in the lyrics, how can it be innapropriate?

The fact that it is written by a Protestant is irrelevant. What is problematic are some lyrics that emanate from heretical ideas. I have seen some versions of this with adapted lyrics used at Mass, but some of the lyrical arrangements would not be appropriate. I read where another poster called avoiding promoting heretical ideas during Mass as “stupid”, but this is not the case. The Bishops have a responsibility to protect the Mass from the infiltration of bad theology.

There is “wretch” word, which reflects the T in Calvin’s TULIP of “total depravity”. Catholicism teaches that humans are made in the image and likeness of God, and that original sin has wounded us. Calvin taught something quite different about human nature and salvation, as evidenced by this characterization of humanity. The approved alternate text is “Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved and set me free…” (this is what happens in baptism).

This line, for another example:

How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed

implies that saving grace appears the moment someone believes. It is a reflection of the Reformation theology that baptism does not regenerate, and that persons only receive grace at the moment they believe. Along with that idea is that their salvation is assured from that moment to eternity. That idea can be reinforced by this stanza:

His word my hope secures

Which can imply that anyone who believes will be saved, no matter what they do after that moment of belief. I realize that these lines can be understood in other ways, but there are many stanzas that have been added after the original was written, and not all of them belong in the Mass.

One alternate stanza says:

“Yet when this flesh and heart shall fail, and mortal life shall cease, I shall posess within the veil, a life of joy and peace.”

“Shall” is a reference to another part of the TULIP - Irresistable grace, which means that those who are elected of God will go to heaven no matter what.

There are other lyrics that can create problems but these are sufficient to make my point.

 

[guanophore]

I wonder why? Jesus did come to save us and the guy who wrote it was a wretch, in his own mind, consumed with guilt and deserving of hell. Which is why he thought God’s Grace so amazing. I agree with him.

And you are right of course. In Revelation, Jesus calls the disciples “wretched, poor, blind, pitiable and naked”. That state is pretty well summed up in that word!

 

[Cat]

I see what you are saying and I agree that most Catholics, if well catechised, don’t believe in once saved, always saved. It is the hearing that they could be that pulls them away when they are not well catechised.

As I said before the Catholic church has such a rich history of music to pull from that I pray will not be lost as it appears to be happening as we are bringing in so many non-Catholic hymns to replace them with. So many young Catholics are being brought up on non - Catholic hymns today.

I love the Catholic church and I love it’s beautiful music. Even as some are writing it today.

catholicmusic.co.uk/index.html

As I said earlier, the music director of a parish has only four chances, and he/she needs to make wise selections when choosing the hymns (if the four-hymn sandwich is used).

I absolutely agree that when the four-hymn sandwich is used, the best choices for those hymns would be Catholic hymns that are rich in theology and beautiful in melody.

We are fortunate that in my parish, the majority of the hymns selected for the Masses are such hymns.

I think that since Amazing Grace is absolutely beloved by a large number of Christians, both Catholic and Protestant, it will continue to make the selection on a fairly regular basis, and I think that the best thing to do is try to find good in the hymn rather than stewing over perceived bad.

I believe that other hymns such as Lord of the Dance are ideal for more casual settings; unfortunately, it seems that the Catholic Church in the United States does not often offer “casual settings” during which hymns are sung. I wish that this could be changed, and I see no reason why it can’t be changed. I would love to see our parish do more singing outside of Mass; e.g., at Bible studies, or at “singspiration” type gatherings (the purpose of such gatherings is to sing, sing SING!). I’m not sure if this kind of gathering would attract a crowd, but I do think it depends on how well the music is presented by the leaders and the instrumentalists.

I attended a Mass in Michigan several years ago that was rather interesting. AFTER the Mass, and AFTER all the people who remained to pray had left, a man came up to the piano, and a sizeable crowd of people gathered around him. My husband and I were on the verge of leaving, but I wanted to stick around and see what happened.

What happened is that the pianist started playing some of the really good contemporary Christian songs, and the people started singing in hearty voices.

I asked one of the ushers if it was a choir practice, and he said, “No, but after Mass, anyone who wants to remain and sing Christian music is welcome to do so.”

Wow!

I thought this was a wonderful idea, and I would love to do this in my parish, and I would be happy to play piano for this. Our problem is that the Mass schedule on Sundays in our parish is so packed. But it would work on Saturday evening after the Vigil Mass, when there is no hurry to get people out of the parking lot to fit the next crowd in.

I have mentioned this idea to the parish staff, and they seemed interested. I’ll keep bringing it up whenever appropriate.

It just seems to me that this would be a good way to handle some of the more contemporary Christian hymns and songs; rather than including them in Mass, include them in a “sing-along” outside of Mass, and in any other more casual settings such as luncheons, Bible studies, etc.

 

[Stylites]

Yes, you are right. Protestants are our brothers and sister in Christ. I am an ex-protestant myself .

We definitely need to pray for the oneness of Christian but we need to pray they come to the fullness of truth. Unfortunately just like everyone their souls are at stake and we should never just shake it off and say they are Christians and so part of the body of Christ and not witness the truth to them. A half truth can be more dangerous sometimes than an out and out lie.

The song Amazing Grace is always the song we sung whenever we as protestants talked about having an assurance of our salvation. Even Hollywood will play that song when pushing their agendas.

Whenever I sinned I would pull out that song and reassure myself I was going to heaven no matter what because that is what I was taught.

Then I have to wonder if the problem is the song itself? Or just some past associations with it? Keep in mind that it is Catholics on the liturgical committees who choose to sing whichever hymms will be sung, and we ought to immerse ourselves in worship rather than second-guessing the liturgy or parsing and judging the words of hymms. Sometimes it’s not easy, but we need to look at things anew rather than through our filters of past associations and habits.