Amazing Grace innapropriate for Church?

[Stylites]

Mind. Blown.

But I don’t see how this is any different from singing the Ave Maria at a Pentecostal church.

Both are highly disrespectful.

Are hymms sung to the congregation? Or to God? I guess I don’t see how a bishop could ever be disrespectful to God, or how one would go about judging if God feels disrespected by a particular hymm.

 

[Zosimus41]

Actually, as I posted earlier on, we don’t have a huge reportoire of hymns to draw on. Most early hymnody was written for devotions and morning and evening prayer so the number of Catholic mass hymns is very small indeed, mainly because hymns were not sung at mass until the last century (and initially only at Low Mass)

That’s why when the first hymnals were produced for Low Mass, they were allowed to incorporate those from non-Catholic authors. If not we would have hardly anything to sing for the high points in the liturgical year.

High Mass, the music of the schola cantorum is integral to the liturgical action, the
music of the Low Mass is in no way integral to the celebration of its liturgy. Low Masses, of course, may be offered without any music whatsoever.

**Most early hymnody was written for devotions and morning and evening prayer ** Even so I find them very inspirational probably more so as we sing in prayer. Although most of them may not be allowed during a low mass i.e. Kyrie, Gloria for example.

Suggested musical hyms for low mass:
Processional Hymn, Motet or Organ Music
Offertory Hymn, Motet or Organ Music
Communion Hymn, Motet or Organ Music
Recessional Hymn, Motet or Organ Music

I dont see any “room” here for Amazing Grace anyway It wouldnt be appropriate.

This list is incomplete even so looks like there is plenty to choose from

Anima Christi : vocal and accompaniment :

Ave Maria : vocal and organ :

Ave Maria : SATB and organ:

Ave Verum Corpus : SATB with or without accompaniment :

Crux Sancti Patris Benedicti : SATB with or without accompaniment :

Despectum et Novissimum : two part vocal and organ :

Ego Sum Panis Vivus : SATB and organ:

Festive Alleluia : three part vocal (a cappella or doubled with brass or other instrument: SEE & HEAR

Laudes Divinae : vocal and organ :

O Sacrum Convivium : SSAATTBB and organ (or strings) :

O Vos Omnes (Dmin) : SATB with or without accompaniment :

O Vos Omnes (Emin) : SATB and organ :

Septem Ultima Verba Iesu Christi In Cruce
(Seven Last Words of Christ on the Cross) : SATB and organ (or strings)

1. Pater, dimitte illis, quia nesciunt, quid faciunt :
2. Hodie mecum eris in Paradiso :
3. Mulier, ecce filius tuus : ecce mater tua :
4. Deus meus, Deus meus, utquid dereliquisti me? :
5. Sitio :
6. Consummatum est :
7. Pater, in manus tuas commendo spiritum meum:

---

Mass Ordinaries
LATIN

Mass in C Major (Hoc Est Enim Corpus Meum) : SATB a cappella and Soprano Soloists : SEE & HEAR

Missa Brevis I : SATB, Celebrant, Congregation and organ:

Missa Brevis II : SATB, Celebrant, Congregation and organ:

---

Large Works
Mysterium Rosarium : SATB choir, woods, strings and tubular bells

1. Sign of the Cross & Apostles Creed :
2. The Lord’s Prayer :

Instrumental
O Sacred Head Surrounded : organ solo

The Catholic Bach
In 1754, J.C. Bach went to Italy, and was appointed maestro di cappella to Count Agostino Litta, who gave him funds to train under Padre Giovanni Battista Martini. During this time, J.C. Bach became a Catholic, and devoted much time to the composition of church music.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Really? I’m not talking about somebody who is thinking about converting to catholicism, but has full on converted. Do you have any idea how fervent converts generally are in their faith?:

Oh, I think I have a pretty good idea.

Especially if they used to be protestant? If they are converting to Catholicism as an adult it is because they have become convinced that this is the one true Church set up by Christ. Even a basic understanding of Catholicism will make it clear that Catholics do not accept OSAS. The sacrament of confession, for instance, is absolutely contrary to such an idea. From some of your other posts on this thread it sounds like your perception of this song is coloured by the meanings you associated with it before you converted. Thats perfectly understandable, but it is not at all what most Catholics think of when they hear or sing this song. If they have a basic knowledge of Catholicism, and have no previous associations of this song with the idea of OSAS they really are not going to misunderstand it, and so I see nothing wrong with it. :

Trust me I know how converts and reverts feel about the Church and what usually brings them in. Been there, done that and itseems like this can go on and on. It is fine that you see nothing wrong with it and personally I prefer more Catholic music. I understand and have heard from all three sides; never left Catholics, lapsed Catholics and a converts. I have heard what the song means from both points of view, those that love it and those that don’t and I am finding that this argument can go on and on.

I am very content that you feel this song is appropriate. We would probably never agree. I have had many years in the protestant church and in the Catholic church and this is how I feel. It is through years of studying faith and theology not because of past associations, though that has helped me undertand.

Let me ask again, if it was a lapsed Catholic who returned to the Church without having ever become a OSAS protestant would you still assume that? Even with a OSAS protestant who converted to Catholicism… would you really question their understanding of basic Church teachings so far? It kind of seems like you are questioning their very conversion. :

I am not questioning anyones conversion. I have no right to do that as only God can see someone’s heart and I am not going to answer your question because I believe arguing this is fruitless. I have never heard a Catholic revert, convert or never left talk about being saved. I have already given my opinion of the song and I personally prefer more Catholic songs. It has to be more than just my conversion or should I say reversion since like you said converts are pretty fervent in their faith.

I can’t speak for every one, but this is not a song I hear very often, yet I love it because it is such a powerful song. Not because it is easy to sing, or popular, or because people know the words. It is very emotive, which is a good thing. I certainly know of no song that could be a real replacement for Amazing Grace. There are many other songs that sing about Grace and the goodness of God, yes… but none of them are a good replacement for Amazing Grace.

You know what, that is fine. I am glad that it can be that way for you and to others and if it helps bring you closer to God and Holy Mother Church then that is fine.

I am going to bow out of this conversation now, hopefully.

God bless.

 

[thewanderer]

Oh, I think I have a pretty good idea.

Trust me I know how converts and reverts feel about the Church and what usually brings them in. Been there, done that and itseems like this can go on and on. It is fine that you see nothing wrong with it and personally I prefer more Catholic music. I understand and have heard from all three sides; never left Catholics, lapsed Catholics and a converts. I have heard what the song means from both points of view, those that love it and those that don’t and I am finding that this argument can go on and on.

I am very content that you feel this song is appropriate. We would probably never agree. I have had many years in the protestant church and in the Catholic church and this is how I feel. It is through years of studying faith and theology not because of past associations, though that has helped me undertand.

I am not questioning anyones conversion. I have no right to do that as only God can see someone’s heart and I am not going to answer your question because I believe arguing this is fruitless. I have never heard a Catholic revert, convert or never left talk about being saved. I have already given my opinion of the song and I personally prefer more Catholic songs. It has to be more than just my conversion or should I say reversion since like you said converts are pretty fervent in their faith.

You know what, that is fine. I am glad that it can be that way for you and to others and if it helps bring you closer to God and Holy Mother Church then that is fine.

This is the second time I have said this and I have to really do this, this time but I am bowing out of this conversation.

God bless.

I’m sorry, I really didn’t mean to come across as being argumentative… To me it sounded as though you were still claiming that the song is in itself heretical, which I still do not see, and I have a bad habit of getting very involved in debates and sometimes coming across as harsher or more argumentative than I mean to. I completely understand that there are people who cannot hear it without thinking of OSAS. I realize that this song more than some others written by protestants requires a little prudence about whether or not to actually use it in Church, specifically with respect to whether or not the congregation is aware of the Church’s stance on how salvation is attained. The reason I started this thread was to try and understand why so many people think it is either in itself heretical or to be avoided at all costs because it was written by a protestant. I thought you were arguing it was in and of itself heretical so I tried to bring up an example in which people would use the same phrase (saved) when they don’t mean to imply anything heretical at all. It is something I would say, and probably have said in the past about my own re-version to the faith. When meant this way, saved does not refer to heaven, but to a return to the state of sanctifying grace. People use it this way and often understand it to mean just that. There is no reason the song cannot be understood this way. I did not mean to put you personally on the spot, I assumed that by phrasing it the way I did you would realize that this is one of the ways people use this word in this context, it is perhaps a less formal mode of speech, but it is not incorrect. I did not mean to come across as if I was attacking you or questioning your judgement or abilities in any way, so I am very sorry if I did. I hope this clears things up a little.

 

[Zosimus41]

It does not say that faith procedes baptism. We are not free to change words, add to a thought, then condemn the result. Imply? That word alone should be a tip off that it is not heresy.

For the record though, faith can procede sanctifying grace. I think Catholics often forget that we also baptize adults. The thief on the cross believed first, then was told he would be in paradise. This is also why we accept baptism of desire. This desire springs from faith.

Greetings pnewton and God Bless you.

The thief on the cross first had God’s gift of grace and then believed for noone comes to the son but through the Father.

Grace must precede faith, i.e. it’s God’s grace that moves us to believe in the first place. This also makes since maybe more so for adults.
We are saved by God’s Grace. Without God’ Grace that first moves us, both to believe in Him & Christ and to obey His commandments, we cannot reach our salvation. The teaching that Grace precedes all our actions in relation to our salvation was declared by the Catholic Church in Council of Orange in 529 AD and reaffirmed in the Council Trent

It is by Gods grace first that we are given faith. Faith is a gift from God’s grace we cant have faith with out first been given the gift from God’s Grace.

The Church teaches that there is a difference between actual grace and sanctifying grace. An easy way to understand actual grace is to remember that it enables us to act. It is the strength that God gives us to act according to his will. Sanctifying grace is a state in which God allows us to share in his life and love. When we speak of being in the state of grace, we mean the state of sanctifying grace. There is no mortal sin in us. This grace comes to us first in baptism and then in the other sacraments.
cited Catholic answers staff

 

[Diana_Catherine]

I’m sorry, I really didn’t mean to come across as being argumentative… To me it sounded as though you were still claiming that the song is in itself heretical, which I still do not see, and I have a bad habit of getting very involved in debates and sometimes coming across as harsher or more argumentative than I mean to. I completely understand that there are people who cannot hear it without thinking of OSAS. I realize that this song more than some others written by protestants requires a little prudence about whether or not to actually use it in Church, specifically with respect to whether or not the congregation is aware of the Church’s stance on how salvation is attained. The reason I started this thread was to try and understand why so many people think it is either in itself heretical or to be avoided at all costs because it was written by a protestant. I thought you were arguing it was in and of itself heretical so I tried to bring up an example in which people would use the same phrase (saved) when they don’t mean to imply anything heretical at all. It is something I would say, and probably have said in the past about my own re-version to the faith. When meant this way, saved does not refer to heaven, but to a return to the state of sanctifying grace. People use it this way and often understand it to mean just that. There is no reason the song cannot be understood this way. I did not mean to put you personally on the spot, I assumed that by phrasing it the way I did you would realize that this is one of the ways people use this word in this context, it is perhaps a less formal mode of speech, but it is not incorrect. I did not mean to come across as if I was attacking you or questioning your judgement or abilities in any way, so I am very sorry if I did. I hope this clears things up a little.

Oh that is fine. No need to be sorry and please don’t take my bowing out as meaning anything. I just feel I have had more than my say here and I didn’t mean to sound harsh either. I tried to bow out once before but came back because I love to debate, also. I do have problems with the song but have come to realize that if it brings comfort to others I should let that be.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Are hymms sung to the congregation? Or to God? I guess I don’t see how a bishop could ever be disrespectful to God, or how one would go about judging if God feels disrespected by a particular hymm.

 

[Zosimus41]

If the song lyricsc are not heretical, how are we being influenced by protestantism by singing it? Thats like claiming we shouldn’t have Christmas trees because they are a pagan influence. The Church takes things from other cultures and religions and makes them Catholic. The fact that it originally came from a protestant is not a legitimate reason for excluding it from the Catholic Church.

Many people like to sing this hymn in particular because they find it very uplifting and helps them to resolve more firmly to always stay united to Christ and to thank Him for the Graces they have received. It is a very powerful song.

Peace of Christ be with you wanderer

If the song lyricsc are not heretical, how are we being influenced by protestantism by singing it?

The song is not a Roman Catholic song isnt that enough influence. I doubt the baptist sing Ave Maria at thier church service.

We dont need it.

Its no wonder people hold hands during the Our Father, armies of Eucharistic Ministers march up to the alter, female alter servers, no more alter rails,Orans Posture gestures thrown back up to the preist, singing Amazing Grace, The whole congregation going up to communion.Loud music with drums and electric bass/guitar.

Perhaps individually these things seem harmless but before long it looks more like a Lutheren church service not a Roman Catholic Mass.

 

[thewanderer]

Peace of Christ be with you wanderer

If the song lyricsc are not heretical, how are we being influenced by protestantism by singing it?

The song is not a Roman Catholic song isnt that enough influence. I doubt the baptist sing Ave Maria at thier church service.

We dont need it.

Its no wonder people hold hands during the Our Father, armies of Eucharistic Ministers march up to the alter, female alter servers, tear out the alter rails,Orans Posture gestures thrown back up to the preist “and also with your spirit” singing Amazing Grace, The whole congregation going up to communion.Loud music with drums and electric bass/guitar.

Perhaps individually these things seem harmless but before long it looks more like a Lutheren church service not a Roman Catholic Mass.

You are aware that ‘Hark the Herald Angels Sing’ was written by a protestant, not a Catholic, correct? Are we to refuse to sing this song simply because it was written by a Protestant? Also, what about Christmas Trees and other such practices that have come from pagan religions/cultures? Was the Church wrong to accept these? Should we refuse to participate in them?

The Church has always taken things from other religions and cultures and turned them into Catholic practices. So when you say “The song is not a Roman Catholic song isnt that enough influence” the answer is no. The church takes what is good and true from other religions and cultures and brings them into Herself. These practices do not influence the Catholic faith, rather they are influenced by it, they become Catholic. The fact that something originally comes from a different religion or culture is not a sufficient reason in itself for the Church to reject it.

 

[pnewton]

Greetings pnewton and God Bless you.

The thief on the cross first had God’s gift of grace and then believed for noone comes to the son but through the Father.

Grace must precede faith, i.e. it’s God’s grace that moves us to believe in the first place.

I was speaking of actual grace, as in the hymn, not the grace that comes through the sacrament. Yes, actual grace precedes… everything, in the sense that everything is grace. The thief, or John Newton, could not believe without grace. Everyone knows that. “By grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourself. It is a** gift** of God.” Even faith is a grace.

In the case I gave, it is really not debatable, without denying Scripture. The thief’s statement of faith does in fact happen before the statement of Jesus that he would be in paradise. It also precedes his death, which happened without baptism.

I was addressing the point of grace in the hymn, and why it is not heresy. That is why I sing this hymn in Mass and why it is in Catholic hymnals.

 

[pnewton]

Peace of Christ be with you wanderer

If the song lyricsc are not heretical, how are we being influenced by protestantism by singing it?

The are not heretical in this case.

The song is not a Roman Catholic song isnt that enough influence. I doubt the baptist sing Ave Maria at thier church service.

We dont need it.

Need? I do not know if that is the right poing. We do not need Ave Maria for salvation or Mass. However, I find it to be highly appropriate with many of the readings and will continue to select if for Mass on occassion until the Church says otherwise.

 

[Zosimus41]

You are aware that ‘Hark the Herald Angels Sing’ was written by a protestant, not a Catholic, correct? Are we to refuse to sing this song simply because it was written by a Protestant? Also, what about Christmas Trees and other such practices that have come from pagan religions/cultures? Was the Church wrong to accept these? Should we refuse to participate in them?

The Church has always taken things from other religions and cultures and turned them into Catholic practices. So when you say “The song is not a Roman Catholic song isnt that enough influence” the answer is no. The church takes what is good and true from other religions and cultures and brings them into Herself. These practices do not influence the Catholic faith, rather they are influenced by it, they become Catholic. The fact that something originally comes from a different religion or culture is not a sufficient reason in itself for the Church to reject it.

The old Christmas tree argument Easter eggs and such. Then I would ask Why would you want to add to the list?

Why do you need to add something to our beautiful mass thats not Catholic with all do respect I dont get it.

Theres a long list of non catholic/protestant influence you can visually see in most parishes. Why be part of the problem? Liturgical abuse comes from these influences.
Its called the smoke of satan.

We have lost much of our Catholic Identity already my point is I dont want to loose anymore.

I prefer the Latin rite it leaves less room for any outside influence. You walk into a Latin Rite Mass and theres no mistaking Theres a Catholic Mass going on there.

The wife and I visited another parish the first thing the priest said was he thought he was walking into a protestant church (Because of all the hoopla dancing in the pew and loud music) Then proceded to say he has two other brothers that are priest too they call us the holy trinity they all that that was funny… We didnt

Bottom line is… isnt the liturgical sacred music and hymns good enough with out adding to it?

And who doesnt like Ave Maria better than amazing grace anyway?

Crux Sancti Patris Benedicti prayer sung by choir sounds like angels!
Anima Christi etc…

The bride of Christ is illuminated when she sings out her blessed songs

By replacing one of these songs with amazing grace we miss out on our sacred catholic traditional songs/hymns

These songs inspire Catholicism Teachings and prayers of the saints Thats what I want to hear at mass

If not theres some good spiritual songs by Ann Murry, Josh Groban-Hey we could turn his song “my confession” into its really about going to confession. theres even some Led Zeplin songs we could use. j/k to make a point.

I mean where do you stop?

 

[pnewton]

And who doesnt like Ave Maria better than amazing grace anyway?

Me. I find Ave Maria very difficult to lead a congregation in. Also, it is not appropriate to many of the readings. Mary is usually not the focus of Mass. As to where we stop, that decision is made at a local level and it varies a lot from parish to parish. We all have different musical tastes and different parishes have different cultures. I try to do what is best at my parish, and we will continue to use a varity of hymns as this seems to work best.

 

[Crescentinus]

My views are the same as Michael Voris in this video.
youtube.com/watch?v=KL1TLJ1ftP0&feature=plcp

 

[Zosimus41]

I was speaking of actual grace, as in the hymn, not the grace that comes through the sacrament. Yes, actual grace precedes… everything, in the sense that everything is grace. The thief, or John Newton, could not believe without grace. Everyone knows that. “By grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourself. It is a** gift** of God.” Even faith is a grace.

In the case I gave, it is really not debatable, without denying Scripture. The thief’s statement of faith does in fact happen before the statement of Jesus that he would be in paradise. It also precedes his death, which happened without baptism.

I was addressing the point of grace in the hymn, and why it is not heresy. That is why I sing this hymn in Mass and why it is in Catholic hymnals.

In the case I gave, it is really not debatable, without denying Scripture. The thief’s statement of faith does in fact happen before the statement of Jesus that he would be in paradise.

Perhaps I am missing your point. I agree the thiefs statement comes before Jesus gave him paradise no argument there. My point is God gave the thief grace preceding faith in his son Jesus before the thief could even ask to be rememberd. Gods grace gave him the want for action to be saved.Showing his faith in this case is the action of asking to be rememberd.

I dont get any point to the argument with the thief on the cross analogy you lost me there.

We know this because Jesus said noone can come to me unless the Father draws him.

 

[Zosimus41]

Me. I find Ave Maria very difficult to lead a congregation in. Also, it is not appropriate to many of the readings. Mary is usually not the focus of Mass. As to where we stop, that decision is made at a local level and it varies a lot from parish to parish. We all have different musical tastes and different parishes have different cultures. I try to do what is best at my parish, and we will continue to use a varity of hymns as this seems to work best.

Im sure with your back ground and expertise you could help along those of us like me that cant hold a tune.

Question: Do you have years of experience and a degree in music as well?

You cant tell our Lady we cease and desist on calling you blessed atleast by song because its a difficult piece When its her sons church.

Ave Maria is just one example and Our Lady is focused on at some frame of reference in every mass.

Twice in the Ordinary Form of the Mass. During the Nicence Creed and when we pray the penitential rite three if the Roman Canon is used.

By 1962 Missal

1. “I confess to Almighty God, to blessed Mary ever Virgin, to blessed Michael the Archangel…”
2. “And was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary: and was made man.”
3. “Receive, O Holy Trinity, this oblation which we make to Thee in memory of the Passion, Resurrection and Ascension of our Lord Jesus Christ; and in honor of Blessed Mary ever Virgin, of blessed John the Baptist…”
4. “In communion with, and honoring the memory in the first place of the glorious ever Virgin Mary Mother of our God and Lord Jesus Christ…”
5. “Deliver us, we beseech Thee, O Lord, from all evils, past, present and to come, and by the intercession of the Blessed and glorious ever Virgin Mary, Mother of God…”

 

[DhuAlQarnayn]

Peace of Christ be with you wanderer

**I doubt the baptist sing Ave Maria at thier church service.
**.

Of course they do.

Many hymns used in church are not written by Catholics. Their provenance has no bearing on whether or not they are appropriate for use in church.

 

[thewanderer]

The old Christmas tree argument Easter eggs and such. Then I would ask Why would you want to add to the list?

Why do you need to add something to our beautiful mass thats not Catholic with all do respect I dont get it.

Theres a long list of non catholic/protestant influence you can visually see in most parishes. Why be part of the problem? Liturgical abuse comes from these influences.
Its called the smoke of satan.

We have lost much of our Catholic Identity already my point is I dont want to loose anymore.

I prefer the Latin rite it leaves less room for any outside influence. You walk into a Latin Rite Mass and theres no mistaking Theres a Catholic Mass going on there.

The wife and I visited another parish the first thing the priest said was he thought he was walking into a protestant church (Because of all the hoopla dancing in the pew and loud music) Then proceded to say he has two other brothers that are priest too they call us the holy trinity they all that that was funny… We didnt

Bottom line is… isnt the liturgical sacred music and hymns good enough with out adding to it?

And who doesnt like Ave Maria better than amazing grace anyway?

Crux Sancti Patris Benedicti prayer sung by choir sounds like angels!
Anima Christi etc…

The bride of Christ is illuminated when she sings out her blessed songs

By replacing one of these songs with amazing grace we miss out on our sacred catholic traditional songs/hymns

These songs inspire Catholicism Teachings and prayers of the saints Thats what I want to hear at mass

If not theres some good spiritual songs by Ann Murry, Josh Groban-Hey we could turn his song “my confession” into its really about going to confession. theres even some Led Zeplin songs we could use. j/k to make a point.

I mean where do you stop?

I’m not trying to say we should start importing everything and anything into the Mass or that we should throw out old hymns. I LOVE traditional hymns and gregorian chant and it would be sad if they were lost. The point that I am trying to make is if one wants to argue against using Amazing Grace in Church it needs to be on some other grounds than that the song is heretical or protestant. Despite having now read multiple threads and links on this topic, and honestly trying to see this song as being heretical in itself I just can’t see it. The arguments are based on a misunderstanding of the meaning of the word ‘appear’, the fact that it does not explicitly say anything against OSAS, and the notion that the word ‘wretch’ used so often by many Catholic saints is somehow heretical, none of which hold any water. The idea that it is ‘protestant’ or ‘not Catholic’ is not a sufficient argument in itself because many other things and practices which are ‘not Catholic’ have been allowed into the Church and become Catholic aiding many souls on their earthly journey.

The question is does it help the faithful grow closer to God? Is it the best selection to help this particular group of people grow closer to God? For many people, obviously it is not, as they will just think about how heretical they believe it to be. For many others it is a very powerful and moving song that encourages and strengthens them in their faith. Personally, I think its not a good idea to sing Amazing Grace every week because it loses its power to effect us. In some churches I would never advocate it because people are more uplifted by latin/gregorian chant etc and would find it distracting. I realize you dislike this song, but please don’t argue against it using the argument that it is heretical or protestant.

 

[thewanderer]

My views are the same as Michael Voris in this video.
youtube.com/watch?v=KL1TLJ1ftP0&feature=plcp

Yes, this link has been posted twice before already. I cannot see things the way that he does. Many saints have referred to men as wretches without being heretical, it is an emphasis on the horror of sin and the fact that all men are sinners, we have a fallen nature etc. Also, I cannot see how the word ‘appear’ means ‘come into existance’ the actual sentance it is in makes this understanding of it impossible, or at the very most exptremely imporobable because it would be a very twisted use of english trying to make it express something it normally does not. The actual sentance, and in particular the adjective precious shows us that the word ‘appear’ does not mean ‘come into existance’ but rather it means ‘to seem’, ‘to be perceived’. Plenty of people have already posted on this explaining why the sentance necessitates this understanding of ‘appear’. Which means that there is no way that line is heretical.

Despite what it might seem like, I am more than willing to change my opinion and admit that Amazing Grace is heretical if someone can actually show me that it is, I just have not yet been able to see it as heretical despite trying to carefully understand all the arguments presented in this thread as well as in all the links attatched to it.

 

[pnewton]

You cant tell our Lady we cease and desist on calling you blessed atleast by song because its a difficult piece When its her sons church.

Ave Maria is just one example and Our Lady is focused on at some frame of reference in every mass.

We do not use the 1962 missal. However, I did not say that we tell Mary to cease and desist. That is a ridiculous exaggeration. I said that Mary is not the focus of every Mass. Yes, she is mentioned in the creed and the Eucharisitic prayer. So are the angels and saint, yet we do not sing saints songs every Mass, nor do we sing about angels every Mass. Being mentioned in Mass does is not what I use do determine the focus of the Mass. Rather, I use the feast of the day and the readings in determing what to use. We actually have a thread here in which we exchange ideas. It has given me a lot of insight in how some others here think and what hymns they use.

Also, Ave Maria is not the only Marian hymn, nor is it necessary that when we do use this prayer that it be sung, or in Latin.

Perhaps at your parish the people there are best served with singing Ave Maria every Mass, or some other difference in the music. Not all parishes are the same.

FYI - I have no degree in music.