Amazing Grace innapropriate for Church?

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Zosimus41 said:
High Mass, the music of the schola cantorum is integral to the liturgical action, the
music of the Low Mass is in no way integral to the celebration of its liturgy. Low Masses, of course, may be offered without any music whatsoever.

**Most early hymnody was written for devotions and morning and evening prayer ** Even so I find them very inspirational probably more so as we sing in prayer. Although most of them may not be allowed during a low mass i.e. Kyrie, Gloria for example.

Suggested musical hyms for low mass:
Processional Hymn, Motet or Organ Music
Offertory Hymn, Motet or Organ Music
Communion Hymn, Motet or Organ Music
Recessional Hymn, Motet or Organ Music

I dont see any “room” here for Amazing Grace anyway It wouldnt be appropriate.

This list is incomplete even so looks like there is plenty to choose from

Anima Christi : vocal and accompaniment :

Ave Maria : vocal and organ :

Ave Maria : SATB and organ:

Ave Verum Corpus : SATB with or without accompaniment :

Crux Sancti Patris Benedicti : SATB with or without accompaniment :

Despectum et Novissimum : two part vocal and organ :

Ego Sum Panis Vivus : SATB and organ:

Festive Alleluia : three part vocal (a cappella or doubled with brass or other instrument: SEE & HEAR

Laudes Divinae : vocal and organ :

O Sacrum Convivium : SSAATTBB and organ (or strings) :

O Vos Omnes (Dmin) : SATB with or without accompaniment :

O Vos Omnes (Emin) : SATB and organ :

Septem Ultima Verba Iesu Christi In Cruce
(Seven Last Words of Christ on the Cross) : SATB and organ (or strings)
  1. Pater, dimitte illis, quia nesciunt, quid faciunt :
  2. Hodie mecum eris in Paradiso :
  3. Mulier, ecce filius tuus : ecce mater tua :
  4. Deus meus, Deus meus, utquid dereliquisti me? :
  5. Sitio :
  6. Consummatum est :
  7. Pater, in manus tuas commendo spiritum meum:
Mass Ordinaries
LATIN

Mass in C Major (Hoc Est Enim Corpus Meum) : SATB a cappella and Soprano Soloists : SEE & HEAR

Missa Brevis I : SATB, Celebrant, Congregation and organ:

Missa Brevis II : SATB, Celebrant, Congregation and organ:
Large Works
Mysterium Rosarium : SATB choir, woods, strings and tubular bells
  1. Sign of the Cross & Apostles Creed :
  2. The Lord’s Prayer :
Instrumental
O Sacred Head Surrounded : organ solo

The Catholic Bach
In 1754, J.C. Bach went to Italy, and was appointed maestro di cappella to Count Agostino Litta, who gave him funds to train under Padre Giovanni Battista Martini. During this time, J.C. Bach became a Catholic, and devoted much time to the composition of church music.
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This thread was about the appropriateness of a congregational hymn. Strange then that you have chosen to attach a long list of Motets and references to Ordinary of the mass. All of these are choral compositions, and have nothing to do with hymns.

I am not sure why you have referred to the Kyrie, as this, along with others, is a movement in the mass with set words that has been set to music by Catholic and Protestant authors alike. There are many hundreds of such works, but this is not what we are talking about here.

Also I am puzzled by your reference to JC Bach. His father, J S Bach, was the more talented and prolific composer, and it is his works that are often perfomed today in churches of all denominations. If you want to select a great Catholic choral composer how about Palestrina or Vittoria?

The general points I was making are as follows:

a) is that it would be wrong simply to ban music because it was penned by a non-Catholic. (It’s a different thing of course if the music contains heretical or anti-catholic lyrics, but hardly any traditional hymns do)

b) The Church has allowed this music to be sung for many years.

c) Most of the most popular and traditional hymnody was penned by non-Catholics; more modern hymn material tends to be written by Catholics.

d) There is room for both at mass provided the material is reverent and selected with care.
 
pnewton said:
We do not use the 1962 missal. However, I did not say that we tell Mary to cease and desist. That is a ridiculous exaggeration. I said that Mary is not the focus of every Mass. Yes, she is mentioned in the creed and the Eucharisitic prayer. So are the angels and saint, yet we do not sing saints songs every Mass, nor do we sing about angels every Mass. Being mentioned in Mass does is not what I use do determine the focus of the Mass. Rather, I use the feast of the day and the readings in determing what to use. We actually have a thread here in which we exchange ideas. It has given me a lot of insight in how some others here think and what hymns they use.

Also, Ave Maria is not the only Marian hymn, nor is it necessary that when we do use this prayer that it be sung, or in Latin.

Perhaps at your parish the people there are best served with singing Ave Maria every Mass, or some other difference in the music. Not all parishes are the same.

FYI - I have no degree in music.
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I agree with you completely. Ave Maria is a motet that does not lend itself to congregational singing. Some of the best Marian hymns have been written by non-Catholics:
At some masses I attend it’s common to sing at the very end the appropiate Marian anthem of the season (Salve Regina, Regina Caeli) but I think strictly this is something that has been exported from the tradition at the end of Vespers.
 
liturgyluver said:
I agree with you completely. Ave Maria is a motet that does not lend itself to congregational singing. Some of the best Marian hymns have been written by non-Catholics:
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I have included one Marian hymn every Mass this Month, as I usually do in May. I probably would have skipped Pentacost, but I had to work all weekend then, so the question is moot.
 
SMHW said:
In other words, the hour I first believed explains when the grace seemed precious, not when the grace first came to be present (appeared.)
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For the record this is how I understand it. It seems to me the most obvious way to understand it.
YoungTradCath said:
I think it would blow my mind if I heard A Mighty Fortress in a Catholic church. Talk about Protestant battle hymn. That, I think, would be extremely disrespectful to sing in a Catholic church.
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You’re not alone. My mind was blown when I recently heard it played at a Catholic church. I was there for a Baptism in the chapel and a funeral was being conducted at the same time. We could here the funeral prelude in the chapel. I suddenly realized A Mighty Fortress was being played.

Personally I like the song and can’t see any reason to object to the words. The history behind it of course is a different matter. But then again consider that, as I understand it, many churches in my area prohibit “Here Comes the Bride”. There is nothing wrong with the tune. The problem is it has become such a part of common culture and been parodied that some feel it does not impute any religious significance or sacredness to the ceremony. The world ebbs and flows. Personally I’d much rather sing the great four part harmony hymns of the Protestant tradition than sing any of the modern songs composed by Protestants or Catholics.
 
exnihilo said:
But then again consider that, as I understand it, many churches in my area prohibit “Here Comes the Bride”. There is nothing wrong with the tune. The problem is it has become such a part of common culture and been parodied that some feel it does not impute any religious significance or sacredness to the ceremony. The world ebbs and flows.
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Good point.
 
For what it’s worth, two quick points.
Code: 
When John Newton used the word wretch, I doubt if he was thinking of Calvinist doctrine. As I recall, he became an Anglican clergyman. He was likely thinking and repenting of his earlier career as a slavetrader. In fact, he became an avid abolitionist.

Evangelical churches seem to be growing the fastest in the USA today. These, of course, are conservative Protestant churches, most of them Baptist, pentecostal or perhaps nondenominational. One of the main reasons they are growing is their music. They usually have live 'praise bands' with impressive vocalists, and the early part of worship in many of these churches is a spirited hymnsing, with hands uplifted, the faithful thoroughly involved in praising God in song. Say what you will, this can be very attractive to millions of young people who have gone to rock concerts, who are impressed by loud and consuming music, who are inspired spiritually by this time of vibrant worship with fellow Christians.

 Many Hispanic Catholics have somewhat similar  worship patterns. Some of these Catholic immigrants from Latin America have been attracted to evangelical churches - pentecostal, usually - because of their enthusiastic style of worship.
 
I once got into a “discussion” over whether the song Amazing Grace can be reconciled with Catholic theology on this forum. It was shortly before Mark Shea and Michael Voris started going at it over the same topic.

I went through and took every piece of the song; I provided either a Scriptural quote or a CCC quote supporting each line. I don’t know if it’s of any use, but here it is:

shipofsaintpeter.com/2011/07/in-defense-of-amazing-grace.html
 
DhuAlQarnayn said:
Of course they do.

Many hymns used in church are not written by Catholics. Their provenance has no bearing on whether or not they are appropriate for use in church.
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Greetings and Peace of Christ be with you and your family.

Your response to if Baptist sing Ave Maria was Of course they do I beg to differ

EDE, Netherlands (ABP) – A Latina theologian says overreaction to Catholic veneration of the Virgin Mary has caused Baptists to miss important biblical teaching associated with the mother of Jesus. “It seems that there is a consensus among these Baptists to disregard, neglect or reject the Virgin Mary,” Lozano said, speaking of an informal survey she had done of some of her global Baptist colleagues.
And, in countries where Catholics are a majority, she added, “Baptists tend to move back and forth between actively rejecting and simply ignoring Mary.”
In those countries, Lozano noted, “This becomes one of the major barriers to relations between Catholics and Baptists.”
They dont believe in the perpetual virginity of the Holy Mother nor do they believe in praying to her for help and guidence. So I doubt they sing Hail Mary.

Many hymns used in church are not written by Catholics. Their provenance has no bearing on whether or not they are appropriate for use in church.

Unfortunatly your right about the first part at least in the NOM however the latter I have to disagree. Protestant are in disagreement with the church they have been for the past 500 years. Why would you want to take anything from a group of heretical thinking? Even if spacific songs technically do nothing to dispute the church teachings. Stay steadfast in your teachings.

Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to the faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.
 
Zoisimus, I’m really curious, do you ever sing Hark the Herald Angels Sing?
Also, do you believe we should drop every practice within the Church that came from an outside source seeing as they aren’t Catholic according to your definition?
Zosimus41 said:
Greetings and Peace of Christ be with you and your family.

Your response to if Baptist sing Ave Maria was Of course they do I beg to differ

EDE, Netherlands (ABP) – A Latina theologian says overreaction to Catholic veneration of the Virgin Mary has caused Baptists to miss important biblical teaching associated with the mother of Jesus. “It seems that there is a consensus among these Baptists to disregard, neglect or reject the Virgin Mary,” Lozano said, speaking of an informal survey she had done of some of her global Baptist colleagues.
And, in countries where Catholics are a majority, she added, “Baptists tend to move back and forth between actively rejecting and simply ignoring Mary.”
In those countries, Lozano noted, “This becomes one of the major barriers to relations between Catholics and Baptists.”
They dont believe in the perpetual virginity of the Holy Mother nor do they believe in praying to her for help and guidence. So I doubt they sing Hail Mary.

Many hymns used in church are not written by Catholics. Their provenance has no bearing on whether or not they are appropriate for use in church.

Unfortunatly your right about the first part at least in the NOM however the latter I have to disagree. Protestant are in disagreement with the church they have been for the past 500 years. Why would you want to take anything from a group of heretical thinking? Even if spacific songs technically do nothing to dispute the church teachings. Stay steadfast in your teachings.

Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to the faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.
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pnewton said:
We do not use the 1962 missal. However, I did not say that we tell Mary to cease and desist. That is a ridiculous exaggeration. I said that Mary is not the focus of every Mass. Yes, she is mentioned in the creed and the Eucharisitic prayer. So are the angels and saint, yet we do not sing saints songs every Mass, nor do we sing about angels every Mass. Being mentioned in Mass does is not what I use do determine the focus of the Mass. Rather, I use the feast of the day and the readings in determing what to use. We actually have a thread here in which we exchange ideas. It has given me a lot of insight in how some others here think and what hymns they use.

Also, Ave Maria is not the only Marian hymn, nor is it necessary that when we do use this prayer that it be sung, or in Latin.

Perhaps at your parish the people there are best served with singing Ave Maria every Mass, or some other difference in the music. Not all parishes are the same.

FYI - I have no degree in music.
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With or with out a degree in music I commend your knowledge on the subject. May God Bless and keep you well.

Ave Maria wasnt the only song I mentioned it just got carried too far into the debate The point was here are some examples of what we have to choose from Thats all.

I am defensive about Our Lady.

Cease and desist was a bit harsh and I apologise. I do consider it offensive however to
use protestant hymns in the Catholic Mass for each one performed it leaves a Catholic hymn unperformed.

by Helen Hull Hitchcock
Pope Benedict XVI has issued a motu proprio expanding use of the Missal as it was before the Second Vatican Council. i.e. 1962 Missal Yep its still very much alive. Since the church is guided by the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is God the same yesterday today and tomorrow so its been with the church since her begining over 2000 years ago.

Lex orandi lex credendi How you pray is how you believe
 
thewanderer said:
Zoisimus, I’m really curious, do you ever sing Hark the Herald Angels Sing?
Also, do you believe we should drop every practice within the Church that came from an outside source seeing as they aren’t Catholic according to your definition?
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Do I ever sing Hark the Herald Angels Sing? Yes I have But trust me you wouldnt want
to hear me sing it LOL :o I also sing Josh Groban The Eagles and from time to time Ill slip in some ELO or Fleetwood Mac.

Im sure this is a loaded question assuming your going to say it was written by a protestant
my answer would be Although I sing these songs in my truck or at home when the wife is gone I dont think it would be appropriate sing them in Mass.

See I believe everything has its place Do I have non catholic spiritual moving songs I listen to outside of mass Yes I do But theres a lot of things I do outside of mass I dont find appropriate to do in Mass.
 
Zosimus41 said:
Do I ever sing Hark the Herald Angels Sing? Yes I have But trust me you wouldnt want
to hear me sing it LOL :o I also sing Josh Groban The Eagles and from time to time Ill slip in some ELO or Fleetwood Mac.

Im sure this is a loaded question assuming your going to say it was written by a protestant
my answer would be Although I sing these songs in my truck or at home when the wife is gone I dont think it would be appropriate sing them in Mass.

See I believe everything has its place Do I have non catholic spiritual moving songs I listen to outside of mass Yes I do But theres a lot of things I do outside of mass I dont find appropriate to do in Mass.
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I guess I just don’t understand this way of thinking. Do you not think that the Catholic Church can take practices that originated elsewhere and make them Catholic? Why do you insist that the faith of the writer of a song determines the faith of the song?

Let me try phrasing this another way, If there are only true statements about God and His ways in a song, how is it not Catholic? The Catholic Church is the repository of truth. Anything that is true in another religion/culture ultimately belongs to the Catholic Church. I’m not trying to be dense, I just honestly don’t understand why anyone would disagree with this.

Also, I am rather curious what you have to say about the practice of Christmas Trees in Church. According to your definition of Catholic they are not Catholic, so they shouldn’t have any place in a Catholic Church. Do you agree with this? If not, why not?
 
Zosimus41 said:
I do consider it offensive however to
use protestant hymns in the Catholic Mass for each one performed it leaves a Catholic hymn unperformed.
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We need to be careful about being so easily “offended” when the Church approves of and fosters something. Let’s lift our hearts up to God, and not our pique.
 
Zosimus41 said:
Pope Benedict XVI has issued a motu proprio expanding use of the Missal as it was before the Second Vatican Council. i.e. 1962 Missal Yep its still very much alive.
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Let me clarify, that when I said we do not use that missal, it was in the context of what we do at my parish, not the Catholic Church at large. Also, I mostly do use hymns written by Catholics, but no parish uses every hymn written by every Catholic.
 
Julia_Mae said:
I wonder why? Jesus did come to save us and the guy who wrote it was a wretch, in his own mind, consumed with guilt and deserving of hell. Which is why he thought God’s Grace so amazing. I agree with him.
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John Newton wrote that poem. He had been a slave trader in the British Navy. He had every reason in the world to be consumed with guilt and deserving of hell. After his conversion he fought against slavery.

I love that song.
 
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