Amazon Synod considering the possible ordination of married men

[bobperk]

True. And if this region is special enough as to require its own “indigenous” priests, who’s to say that Germans shouldn’t have German priests, or Brazilians, Brazilian priests, etc.?

I mean here in the US, it is not uncommon for a predominately white parish to have a priest from India, Africa, etc. The Church doesn’t seem to think we need white priests only.

Someone else posted, maybe by requiring an “indigenous face” the Church is trying to prevent this from happening everywhere. Who knows. But the argument could also be, if they’re so special, aren’t we special too?

 

[Wozza]

You know, women control more in the church that you might think. At least at the parish level in the US. Women are just smart enough to let the men think they are in control. Same in a lot of good marriages.
Finally, if Jesus had established a female priesthood, we would never get the men involved.

Now there are some views that are…how shall I describe them…old fasioned?

 

[InThePew]

By the time a person has jumped through all these hoops, seems like you’re basically talking about ordaining already existing married deacons from the Amazon tribes. Almost no one else could fit all these requirements.

Yes and no. Permanent deacons obviously aren’t unrequited priests and the Church wouldn’t want them to be seen in this way (nor would permanent deacons themselves). Certainly, though the pool of talent so to speak which Permanent Deacons might otherwise be drawn from (basically older, married, local men) could be used to provide potential candidates to the priesthood.

if this region is special enough as to require its own “indigenous” priests, who’s to say that Germans shouldn’t have German priests, or Brazilians, Brazilian priests, etc.?

Because ethnicity isn’t the same thing as nationality. I minister to an indigenous community and while they’re grateful to have me (even though I’m still learning the language) I’m conscious of the fact that I’m not “one of them” nor will I ever be because I lack their generational connection to the culture and the land which effectively gives them their “cultural DNA”

 

[angel12]

Along the way, make fun of and insult anyone who is remotely traditional. Judge no one except those “rigid” traditionalists.

If you think that disagreeing is an insult, you might not want to take part in – or even read – internet discussions. Disagreements are all over the place.

 

[OraLabora]

Probably the biggest issue which would need to be addressed in the role of the priests wife - does she have a complementary ministry to her husband’s (like the Greek Presbytera) or does she just do her own thing (like many Anglican wives).

Why would it be any different than what is now the situation for married deacons?

though the pool of talent so to speak which Permanent Deacons might otherwise be drawn from (basically older, married, local men) could be used to provide potential candidates to the priesthood.

I agree, it would certainly shorten the time necessary for formation.

 

[BartholomewB]

I thought the reason they were considering allowing married men to be priests in this particular region was because they had a serious priest shortage there, presumably because men did not want to go into this remote area to serve. Not in order to “give the church an indigenous face”.

This campaign has been going on for a number of years. The prime mover was Bishop Erwin Kräutler, the then bishop (now bishop emeritus) of the prelature of Xingu, in the Brazilian Amazon area. The prelature of Xingu covers a land area of 140,000 square miles, which is bigger than Wisconsin and Illinois together, but with a population of under 600,000, which is smaller than the population of Milwaukee. The population is spread out very thinly over the area. The prelature is divided into 15 parishes. The latest official figures (link below), referring to 2016, show a total of 33 priests for a Catholic population of 382,000, giving an average of one priest for every 11,500 Catholics.

http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/dxing.html

Bishop Kräutler campaigned strenuously, for years on end, both for women and for married men to be ordained priests, to meet the need for bringing the Eucharist to the scattered communities in his sprawling prelature. Under Benedict XVI he realized he was getting nowhere, but when Francis was elected he renewed his campaign, believing he might now get a sympathetic hearing in Rome. His fellow Brazilian bishops advised him to drop his call for women priests and to concentrate on married men, telling him it would improve his chances of success. The closer we get to the October meeting, the more likely it seems that Kräutler is now going to get his way.

 

[jack63]

So now we’re getting this business about needing indigenous men to be priests.

Just curious about what your underlying concern here is about needing indigenous men to be priests…

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I don’t have a problem with indigenous male priests. I’m just getting a bit confused as to the actual rationale for allowing the married priests, as this reason had not come up before. Previous articles all focused on the shortage of priests only, and didn’t indicate that there were other reasons.

 

[BartholomewB]

I hadn’t heard until now of any call for “indigenous priests”. Brazil has never produced enough vocations for its own needs. In the past it imported large numbers of priests from Europe. Bishop Kräutler, for example, is Austrian by birth. Could they be arguing that “indigenous”, i.e. Brazilian-born, priests are now needed more than ever, because there are no longer enough vocations in Europe to make up for the shortfall?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I actually thought months ago when I first read this story that the idea was to both provide some extra motivation to get priests to go into this area longterm, and also to provide the priest with some help or company. Similar to Protestant missionary couples. Now I’m getting they want to ordain the tribal elders or whatever. Story as reported just keeps changing. May be the media’s fault.

 

[Weserthy]

I agree, it would certainly shorten the time necessary for formation.

There hasn’t been any concrete proposal that I have seen, but based on the discussion and speculation that I have seen so far from clerics participating in the synod, I was under the impression that potential married priests that would be ordained in this area would be undergoing little formation, or at least much less formation than typical priests currently receive. It does not not seem likely to me that potential candidates from ordination would be leaving their families to travel to a seminary (since presumably there are no seminaries in these “remote areas”) for extended periods of time - doesn’t it usually take 6+ years of formation/seminary to become a priest? Minus deacons who would already have gone through some of this.

Most discussion so far has painted these potential priests as, pardon the term, “sacrament dispensers” that will be ordained simply to say mass, hear confessions, etc., rather than fulfilling the numerous other roles that many modern priests are given.

 

[po18guy]

Yet another example of the corrosive influence of the world attempting to alter the Church. The Church, by definition - by its very DNA - runs counter to any and all secular cultures.

The voices who cry out for change seem to me to fall into one of two classes:

1. Those who are more upset with the discipline expected of Priests when the priests themselves are not, and…

1. Those outside who demand change but will not become Catholic since, if the Church changed in favor of them, it can also change against them.

Has anyone considered the historicity and scriptural warrant for celibacy? Has anyone considered that lowering discipline always results in a lessening of human performance? Study human nature. Ponder it. Those called to a higher office are expected to conform to a higher level of discipline. We need higher levels of discipline, not lower.

Rather, should there not be a world-wide call to men to stand up and be men? To deny themselves, take up their cross and then follow Christ in persona Christi?

Changing the recipe does not alway result in a better cake.

 

[jack63]

Has anyone considered the historicity and scriptural warrant for celibacy?

I agree that there is scripture to support some communities with celibacy. However, there is scripture to strongly support married priests too. 1 Timothy 3:2-5 is a big one that describes the ideal Bishop as married only once while managing his household and children.

The voices who cry out for change seem to me to fall into one of two classes:

1. Those who are more upset with the discipline expected of Priests when the priests themselves are not , and…
2. Those outside who demand change but will not become Catholic since, if the Church changed in favor of them, it can also change against them.

I really don’t agree with this. There are other categories of very sincere people who aren’t just after power who would support expanding the role of married priests in the Catholic church. For example there are those that see scriptural value in married priests, sympathize with the severe shortage of priests in some areas, and married Catholic priests who support expanding the number of married priests, etc, etc.

 

[Gorgias]

Joining any diocese (especially one in another, presumably very different, part of the world) isn’t simply a matter of showing up and saying “here I am”!

Joining a diocese? Or joining a program of priestly formation?

(I don’t know how it is in your diocese, but I was surprised to learn about the number of men who “diocese-shop” for the right place to land for priestly formation around here, and the dioceses who are willing to take them.)

dioceses tend to want people who are familiar with the pastoral context in which they’ll be working (or who will at least be committed indefinitely) and who can of course speak the language.

Portuguese or Spanish would be a workable choice, but I suspect that’s why the synod is asking for indigenous candidates, so that they don’t get someone who only speaks the language of the colonizers…

I would expect that, much like deacons, there would be a minimum age as well as a requirement for a man to have been married for a minimum number of years prior to ordination (or even acceptance into the seminary).

Sure, but that would hold not only for indigenous candidates, but also citizens and non-citizens who aren’t from indigenous cultures.

I guess the question would be, “what constitutes a priest shortage?”

As I recall, the situation there that gave rise to the question is a context of a 10,000:1 Catholic-to-priest ratio.

But the argument could also be, if they’re so special, aren’t we special too?

You’re special… but you have far more priests available to you than they do.

Permanent deacons obviously aren’t unrequited priests and the Church wouldn’t want them to be seen in this way (nor would permanent deacons themselves).

Exactly.

Why would it be any different than what is now the situation for married deacons?

Yes, it would be different… particularly because their husbands would be pastors.

Could they be arguing that “indigenous”, i.e. Brazilian-born, priests are now needed more than ever, because there are no longer enough vocations in Europe to make up for the shortfall?

My wild guess (YMMV!) is that there might be concern that a married man who is ordained a priest might decide to leave and minister elsewhere (that is, in a region where there isn’t a 10,000:1 ratio). It’s far easier to prevent that now, prior to potential ordination, than to attempt to close the barn door once the cows have escaped, so to speak…

 

[CTBcin]

Has anyone considered the historicity and scriptural warrant for celibacy? Has anyone considered that lowering discipline always results in a lessening of human performance? Study human nature. Ponder it. Those called to a higher office are expected to conform to a higher level of discipline. We need higher levels of discipline, not lower.

Rather, should there not be a world-wide call to men to stand up and be men? To deny themselves, take up their cross and then follow Christ in persona Christi?

I’m not sure I entirely agree that allowing married priests is intrinsically a lessening of discipline (though I’m not saying it isn’t, either). However, I do agree fully with the second part.

 

[GospelOfMatthew]

My thought is, the Holy Spirit will allow what should happen to happen. Keep in mind what Jesus promises us:

”And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” - Matthew 16:18

Whether we have married priests or women deacons, what should happen ultimately will. Ultimately salvation will be brought about by the way that we love others.

I think married priests could conflate two vocations and make discernment harder and could lead to some conflicts of interest. But it could also lead to more priests and potentially better marriage advice from priests.

But more than anything, I trust that what should happen will happen because Jesus promises us this

 

[HopkinsReb]

The agenda has always been clear. Erode teachings on homosexuality; erode teachings on the indissolubility of marriage; erode clerical celibacy; explore expanded ministerial roles for women…

One of these things is not like the others…

 

[phil19034]

I agree, it would certainly shorten the time necessary for formation.

I agree… The Seminary system for priests isn’t set up to support married seminarians.

The best way to make this happen is to select priests from the Permanent Deacons who have a later calling to the priesthood.

That way you can use the same formation program as the Permanent Deacons + the additional formation needed to make them a priest.

 

[InThePew]

Why would it be any different than what is now the situation for married deacons?

Tha’ts just it, the Church is still working out what the role of deacons’ wives is so it’s the same problem with priests’ wives - only more so!

I don’t know how it is in your diocese, but I was surprised to learn about the number of men who “diocese-shop” for the right place to land for priestly formation around here, and the dioceses who are willing to take them

Yeah I’m familiar with the idea of diocese shopping but it’s one thing to shop around the neighbouring dioceses (and in a large urban area there might be a number of choose from) or even further away but going, uninvited to a completely different culture and country is another thing altogether. Most dioceses expect some period of residency prior to application (again, there are exceptions to this) and most vocations directors tend to ask questions along the lines of “why to you feel called to this diocese”. An applicant whose response is something like “because I am / want to get married” isn’t likely to get very far. Even if they’re not that oblivious about it, showing up in a distant diocese does tend to raise questions about motivations.

@Tis_Bearself I think the idea behind attracting indigenous priests may have something to do with the negative way in much some cultures view childlessness as well as the difficulties in attracting younger men due to the need for them to provide for their families. This is just a guess based on other indigenous cultures

 

[phil19034]

Tha’ts just it, the Church is still working out what the role of deacons’ wives is so it’s the same problem with priests’ wives - only more so!

Working out the role of deacon’s wives??? They are no different than any other person in the pew. They can be as involved or uninvolved as they want to be.

In my parish, I have no idea who the deacons’ wives are. Obviously, some people do, but it’s not an advertised thing.