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Sarcelle
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Yes, secular judges.
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Rubee
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I know. And some say the value of not committing sacrilege justified it, just as it did in Jesus’ day, thus no stealing occurred. I’m sympathetic to that view.
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If you steal my laptop - I understand. You want to have it. If you steal my laptop and throw it in a river, I would ask for an explanation. I think we all know what the explanation is, but you don’t seem to want to know. Your business. However, calling the perpetrator a thief, a robber, and condemning him to prison, as you just did, does not sound like a very Christian or Catholic attitude.
Who or what gives you the authority to condemn this person? And, what happened to your Christian charity? Did you set it on a shelf somewhere?
Who or what gives you the authority to condemn this person? And, what happened to your Christian charity? Did you set it on a shelf somewhere?
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phil19034
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But souls are being threatened. The clergy was in GRAVE ERROR by allowing those pagan idols in the Church.
If anything, it was a serious lack of good judgment and the removing of these idols should have been done by a member of the clergy.
If anything, it was a serious lack of good judgment and the removing of these idols should have been done by a member of the clergy.
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Babaganoush
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You are going to have to make yourself more clear. They are idols. That is a fact. Pachamama is a pagan representation of Mother Earth. It is a pagan goddess. Ownership doesn’t trump truth. Either the idols should be destroyed or the whole Catholic Church should be torn down because they can’t be mixed.
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Rubee
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Kinda irrelevant. They’d also defend baby murder by calling it a medical procedure. We’re not discussing man-made law here but catholic morality.
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Rubee
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That would be ideal. Question is, what’s the laity to do when the clergy won’t do a thing?
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pnewton
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No. It is not a fact. This has been passed around the internet to the point that those who do not know how to use the internet carefully believe it to be a fact. In another thread I pointed out several reasons why this can’t be true. It was my opinion that the evidence is weak. Yet if we can’t separate fact from opinion, then such crimes might be seen as justified.
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phil19034
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My money… the people who threw the idols in the water believed they were doing something courageous for God and thus did not meet the conditions for Mortal Sin.Aquinas11:
I would think a sin would more likely condemn a soul than save it.Beryllos:
And this is case of even greater urgent need, that is, to save a soul.
Sure perhaps God considers what they did to be venial sin. However, I don’t think it reaches the level of mortal sin - IF their motives were simply to rid the church of idol worship.
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Rubee
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The Vatican communications person already said the statues were Life and Fertility statues. That’s a fact.
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Sarcelle
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Even more souls are threatened by a lack of proper catechism and this act will turn even more people off of the Church, especially when they witness Catholics commit crimes in the name of faith.
Petitions, dialogue and praying the Rosary, the most powerful prayer of all. No idol can stand up to that.
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rom
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Yes, but getting rid of a pagan idol where it is not supposed to be is NOT a sin.
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Sean
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Well the Vatican said it wasn’t the virgin Mary or any of the saints.
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phil19034
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OK. However, what about the lack of judgment by the clergy in allowing those idols in the first place?phil19034:
Even more souls are threatened by a lack of proper catechism and this act will turn even more people off of the Church, especially when they witness Catholics commit crimes in the name of faith.
Petitions, dialogue and praying the Rosary, the most powerful prayer of all. No idol can stand up to that.
I have already heard of a number of people who were considering joining the Catholic Church who are not now due to their view that the Pope is ok with idol worship.
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Aquinas11
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If state of Church was healthy that would have occurred. But the fact that a lay person had to do it proves point that Church is not in healthy state. I agree with you that I would have preferred that to happen. But we have the Church we have. People with legitimate concerns about the idols were barred from attending Vatican press conferences, so they had to wait for Cardinals to finish eating at restaurants and approach them on street to ask them why this is permitted. They receive no answer. One of them would say “call my office” and reporter would say “I have been, nobody will schedule a time for me”. Then Cardinal just stares and him and walks away. People who have legitimate concerns about the idols have been bending over backwards to try and engage in reasonable dialogue with Clergy. They have been ignored.
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Sarcelle
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Are you saying theft isn’t wrong because those who will call it wrong, I.e., secular judges, also support abortion?
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pnewton
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I did not say that. I said he committed an act deserving of prison. Whether he is personally deserving of this, or of lesser punishment, would be up to a court if he is prosecuted.
It is ironic how moral relativism is condemned by those now supporting this violation of the Seventh Commandment, at least ironic is the nicest way I know to put it.
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Rubee
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Are you saying stuff I didn’t say is stuff I said just to argue on the internet?
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phil19034
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From what I understand… no. This is apparently making those people seriously consider Eastern Orthodoxy instead.
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Sarcelle
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I am concerned by that too and worried to be honest.
Still does not excuse what was done. In fact, it weakens our position.
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