Amazon Synod idols cast in River Tiber today

[PeterT]

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Yes it is Catholic. It is the Cathedral in Brisbane. The image is ambiguous to represent what the Mother of Christ represents to Christians. The title is…

Here a people of godly race are born for heaven; the Spirit gives them life in the fertile waters. The Church-Mother, in these waves, bears her children like virginal fruit she has conceived by the Holy Spirit.

No, that’s not a sculpture of the Blessed Virgin Mary, but of the Church as a Mother in context of Pope Sixtus III poem that you already quoted. The Pope is referring to the Church as the mother. He is NOT referring to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Here’s a nice write up of this baptismal font in the Cathedral of Saint Stephen:

One of the most beautiful images used in Christian literature to describe the meaning of baptism is that of the Church as mother who, through the waters of the font, gives birth to a new Christian. This has been stunningly expressed in Carrara marble by sculptor, Peter Schipperheyn. The new-born child symbolises the new Christian emerging from the waters of the font to become part of the family of the Church. The spiral, a form picked up in the font itself, represents the baptismal cycle of death and rebirth. The sculpture is serene and still, sensuous and yet pure; it is classical in its technique, romantic in its emotion and yet undeniably contemporary in its representation of materials – flesh, cloth, water, hair, stone are at times indistinguishable.

Inscribed on the floor near the font is a verse from the 5th century poem of Pope Sixtus III developing the baptismal theme of the church as mother. It comes from the walls of the baptistery of St John Lateran, the cathedral of the city of Rome.

Here a people of godly race are born for heaven; the Spirit gives them life in the fertile waters. The Church-Mother, in these waves, bears her children like virginal fruit she has conceived by the Holy Spirit.

Here’s the link to the document that I quoted from:
http://publicdocs.bne.catholic.edu.au/Departments/RE-RLOS/A Guide to the Cathedral of St Stephen.doc

 

[pnewton]

Erected? It was not designed to be prone. They displayed a gift. We also will “erect” a flag in our Church, but we do not worship it. The bones of Crockett, Bowie, and Travis are in the cathedral in San Antonio, yet they too are no worshiped. Being inside a church building does not equate to idolatry.

For that matter, even the saints adorn our churches, yet they too are not worshiped. So, like the many times before when I have responded to the accusation that the Catholic Church is idolatrous, I would point out that respect is not worship. Honor is not worship. The reason idolatry is a straw man is that no one is supporting pagan worship or idolatry here. We are disagreeing that it was idolatry or worship. So all this continuing, repeated points and cutesy cartoons just beg the question.

If you want to show this is idolatry, then show where the Church has said it was, not all these biased pundits. For those younger here, you can’t always trust the media.

Yes nobody who abides by 1st commandment needs an explanation why they disposed of Idols.

You realize that you just accused a lot of you fellow Catholics of disobeying the First Commandment for no reason other than not agreeing with you, unless you can explain how this statement did not do this.

Can you at least see past your own opinions enough not to have such attacks on others of different opinion?

 

[pnewton]

Vatican synod officials, alas, have been woefully inadequate in educating to the public what all these cultural and spiritual artifacts and rituals mean to the Amazonians, causing greater confusion than clarity and seeming to contradict the event organizer whose experience should afford the greatest understanding.

On this, I see the point. The Vatican has always been slow to adapt. In this age, even in issues that are local and culture, people of all cultures, bias, opinions, and nations, feel the need to have “an opinion”, informed, or not; educated, or not. This has become a real problem when the Church attempts local actions.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I think you may have tagged the wrong person

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Oh ok. No problem

 

[MagdalenaRita]

@adgloriam What you did with this post is terrible. @Aquinas11 did not say anything wrong.
But you try to ridicule him by seeking applause from others. What for? Do you feel better

Yes it was a terrible post. @Aquinas11 said nothing incorrect. And @adgloriam gets no applause from me, so it did him no good to link me.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Grace does not destroy nature , but perfects it

I believe St. Thomas was talking about man’s nature, not the environment or paganism.

 

[CapitalistCatholic]

Yes, this whole “Nature is divine.” thing sounds very pantheistic. We CAN say that by Christ’s death and resurrection, all matter was reoriented in its nature to point toward the divine.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

We don’t worship pagan idols anymore not because we are forbidden by the OT but because we are illuminated by revelation through Christ.

Jesus came not to abolish the law and prophets but to fullfill them and He said to love the Lord your God with all your heart, all you soul and all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. No idol worship.

We still believe that the OT is the inerrant Word of God and much of the OT predates the law, one example of God showing us He wants us to worship Him alone would be God calling Abraham out of the paganism in the land of Ur.

Idolatry in the light of Christ is the elevation as self as God. Rejecting any authority above ones own interpretation of things.

That is one type of idolatry yes, but as Father Hardon says, paganism can also be making a thing your god.

What we are talking about is bringing the light of Christ’s revelation

Yes, this is what we are saying, we are to bring people anywhere and everywhere, the light of Christ.

We are no longer a terrified and superstition people who can’t listen to others.

No one is saying be terrified or superstitious but we must be obedient to Christ to baptize all nations and worship Him only. Not only that, listening and following are two different things.

We have Christ who through the Holy Spirit will illuminate them as well.

Yes, if we bring that truth to them, and not participate in their paganism.

 

[Crusader13]

The reason idolatry is a straw man is that no one is supporting pagan worship or idolatry here…
If you want to show this is idolatry, then show where the Church has said it was, not all these biased pundits.

Your straw man argument has no validity because I haven’t personally accused you or anyone else of being idol worshippers or pagans.

The argument that pagan worship has been taking place at the synod has a lot of credibility. The Vatican already said the wooden idol was not Mary. That it was a symbol meant to represent life, fertility and mother earth.

A wooden idol carved in the shape of a pregnant woman, that they prayed to, bowed before, burned incense to and carried in a procession, just to name a few.

All of these displays of liturgical worship are what we as Catholics use in our liturgy. But if this wooden idol and the other symbols are not connected to anything scriptural then what do you call it if not idolatry?!?!?

Your arguments and those of others which have been throwing everything but the kitchen sink trying to attach a non-pagan explanation are completely unreasonable.

In sum your arguments have basically tried to insist that we’re not to believe our lying eyes.

 

[Sarcelle]

Do you believe that the current Pope will lead the Church off the rails?

The same Church that has had Popes that were downright evil but in spite of that has endured?

Will the gates of Hell finally prevail against the Church in spite of what Jesus promised?

 

[Genesis315]

Catholic are not to just blindly accept whatever someone in a miter–or even a group of men in miters–teach or do. That’s all well and good when they do their jobs, but sometimes they don’t. St. Ignatius’ quote is a hyperbole, and in any event has to do with definitive, universal and irreformable judgments. We believe what the Catholic Church has defined, and universally handed on since ancient times. But sometimes our authorized teachers do not fulfill their duty and instead introduce novel doctrine and unorthodox practices at odds with what the Church has defined. God permits it as a trial:

St. Vincent de Lerins, Commonitorium:

[28]…And why, I pray you, does not God forbid to be taught what God forbids to be heard? For the Lord, your God, tries you, to know whether you love Him with all your heart and with all your soul. The reason is clearer than day why Divine Providence sometimes permits certain doctors of the Churches to preach new doctrines — That the Lord your God may try you; he says.

Here’s what a Catholic believes:

St. Vincent:

The Notes of a true Catholic.

[48.] This being the case, he is the true and genuine Catholic who loves the truth of God, who loves the Church, who loves the Body of Christ, who esteems divine religion and the Catholic Faith above every thing, above the authority, above the regard, above the genius, above the eloquence, above the philosophy, of every man whatsoever; who sets light by all of these, and continuing steadfast and established in the faith, resolves that he will believe that, and that only, which he is sure the Catholic Church has held universally and from ancient time; but that whatsoever new and unheard-of doctrine he shall find to have been furtively introduced by some one or another, besides that of all, or contrary to that of all the saints, this, he will understand, does not pertain to religion, but is permitted as a trial, being instructed especially by the words of the blessed Apostle Paul, who writes thus in his first Epistle to the Corinthians, There must needs be heresies, that they who are approved may be made manifest among you: 1 Corinthians 2:9 as though he should say, This is the reason why the authors of Heresies are not immediately rooted up by God, namely, that they who are approved may be made manifest; that is, that it may be apparent of each individual, how tenacious and faithful and steadfast he is in his love of the Catholic faith.

In light of that, if error is spread wide:

St. Vincent:

[7]…What, if some novel contagion seek to infect not merely an insignificant portion of the Church, but the whole? Then it will be his care to cleave to antiquity, which at this day cannot possibly be seduced by any fraud of novelty.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3506.htm

 

[Sarcelle]

Yes, if we bring that truth to them, and not participate in their paganism.

St. Patrick did a good job of redirecting the Irish pagans beliefs to the fullness of truth. One example is his use of the clover to teach about the trinity. The Celtic belief about the sacred number 3, was also used to teach about the Trinity.

We don’t participate in pagan customs but we can use their beliefs as a starting point to the truth. Pagans are not wholly mistaken. They do have elements of truth in their beliefs due to God’s Grace. We can start with that and then lead them on to the road to the full truth. We have start somewhere.

 

[Crusader13]

Each and every person in Amazonia is exactly the same in God’s eyes that you or me.

I’m not saying otherwise. I’ve never attacked their culture or their ability to be saved through the church. As I’ve heard someone else say God loves all of us, but he loves us too much to leave us where we are.

We should absolutely evangelize the Amazonian people but we don’t move the goal posts back and widen the boundaries by allowing them to insert their beliefs regarding pagan deities into our liturgical worship. Even if they try to make the sign of the cross before doing so.

It’s understandable there is much confusion among faithful Catholics about the manners and customs of the Amazonian witness through the synod

At least you’ve acknowledged that there is confusion and reason to be upset. Others here are trying to insist that we’re all over zealous trads, without the enlightened frame of mind to see past our own pride.

 

[Welshrabbit]

I see I’m not the only one who listens to podcasts…

 

[Sarcelle]

At least you’ve acknowledged that there is confusion and reason to be upset. Others here are trying to insist that we’re all over zealous trads, without the enlightened frame of mind to see past our own pride.

I acknowledge that too.

To be honest, Pope Francis has me confused some times and at other times, I disagree with him.

I also get the anger against the presence of the idol in the Church.

What I will not agree with is the method taken to address that. There are other alternatives other than theft and vandalism. This screams more frat boy shenanigans than a deep spirituality.

 

[CapitalistCatholic]

St. Patrick showed the Pagans that Christ fulfilled their desire to worship nature and strange gods. He super-imposed the sun onto a cross to show that Christ, as the light of the world, could be worshipped in place of the Sun, as greater than the Sun.

 

[Welshrabbit]

I thought the Heroin analogy was quite good.

 

[Sarcelle]

That’s one method to addressing the use of illegal drugs in your own house.

Another method would be to confront the user and say that you are concerned about the drug use and offer to take him or her to a rehab center to get clean and to wean themselves off the addiction.

Otherwise, just taking their drugs and flushing it down the toilet would just compel the addict to obtain more drugs. This time they’re going to be a lot better at concealing it from you. Kind of defeat the purpose doesn’t it?

I understand the motivation behind the action taken towards the idol but I think there are better methods of dealing with it.

 

[Crusader13]

We don’t participate in pagan customs but we can use their beliefs as a starting point to the truth.

Exactly. But unfortunately that is not what’s happening. And some on here, as well as in the Vatican are so concerned over this fall out that they won’t admit that what took place was wrong.

Because to do so means they have to explain how they could allow pagan worship to take place in our churches and holy places. So they are circling the wagons and throwing everything they have by trying to insist that it wasn’t idolatrous.

Instead the arguments have been aimed at the people who took the idol, they call it theft and are ashamed that anyone is celebrating the thievery.

They’ve accused critics as being culturally insensitive for not caring about the Amazonian people, they say the synod is to bring to light the problems of the environment, they accuse people of attacking the Pope and sowing division.

They are pulling out all the stops but nobody is addressing the idol or the ceremonies.

Come on, something isn’t right and we know it. There arguments aren’t making any sense. It’s deflection and misdirection.