Amazon Synod idols cast in River Tiber today

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Crusader13 said:
Come on, something isn’t right and we know it. There arguments aren’t making any sense. It’s deflection and misdirection.
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Again I am in agreement with you. I never said that those who put the idols in the Church are right. I just disagree with the method that was taken.

Theft and vandalism does not make our position even more tenable.
 
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Sarcelle said:
Again I am in agreement with you. I never said that those who put the idols in the Church are right. I just disagree with the method that was taken.

Theft and vandalism does make our position even more tenable.
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I know and I’m not aiming my entire argument directly at you. I know you’ve agreed with much of what had been said

However, I disagree that it was theft. There was a moral aspect that defends the taking of the idol and destroying it.
 
Just saw my typo.

I meant to say that theft and vandalism does not make our position more tenable.
 
Sarcelle said:
St. Patrick did a good job of redirecting the Irish pagans beliefs to the fullness of truth. One example is his use of the clover to teach about the trinity. The Celtic belief about the sacred number 3, was also used to teach about the Trinity.

We don’t participate in pagan customs but we can use their beliefs as a starting point to the truth. Pagans are not wholly mistaken. They do have elements of truth in their beliefs due to God’s Grace. We can start with that and then lead them on to the road to the full truth. We have start somewhere.
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No one objects to integrating pagan or simply non-religious or non-christian concepts, ideas, items, etc as long as they are not contradictory to our faith. We are just not interested in integrating their deities. Surely you understand the difference between adapting a feast from the celebration of a pagan god to the commemoration of a Catholic event or saint and including the pagan god in a Catholic ceremony/event.
 
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You missed my point.

I am not advocating for worshipping pagan idols.

I am for advocating meeting people where they are and then leading them on a journey to discover Christ.

What is wrong with that?
We are all in a journey to holiness. You can’t expect someone who has just known Christ for a very short time to have the spiritual maturity of someone who has lived the faith all their lives.
 
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Sarcelle said:
You missed my point.

I am not advocating for worshipping pagan idols.

I am for advocating meeting people where the are and then leading them on a journey to discover Christ.
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I’m just letting you know that we agree with you. The only thing we’re objecting to are the elements that are problematic. I’ve said before I am actually fond of shamanism and have a theory about it that’s not ‘demons’ etc I even have a few ideas of inculturation/Christianizing some part of the concept of Shamanic journeying. Tolerant and open as I am to what i consider the oldest universal religion, I see bowing to pagan deities as far from kosher.
 
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It kind of seems like a red herring is being thrown around a lot lately, namely that the Church hasn’t been evangelizing in the Amazon. She has.
 
Sarcelle said:
I meant to say that theft and vandalism does not make our position more tenable.
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But getting rid of those Amazonian statues in the church is NOT theft, and destroying them is NOT vandalism.

Here are two paragraphs I wrote in another thread, and which I just cut and paste here with minor modifications

"Note that two acts can be materially the same but formally different. The act of killing an innocent person is materially the same as the act of killing an unjust aggressor, but they are two formally different acts. The first is murder, while the second is self-defense. Likewise, taking the Amazonian statues away from the church is materially the same as stealing them, but the act does not have the formal character of stealing, because it is an act of cleansing our church of idols.

“Similarly, the act of destroying property that does not belong to you is materially a bad act (vandalism), but formally it can be a good act depending on various factors and circumstances that affect the formal character of the act. Thus, Moses destroyed the golden calf; Christ overturned the tables of the moneychangers in the Temple. Materially they were vandalizing, but formally they were teaching the people how God must be respected. So, those who had the courage to go into the church, take away the idols and throw them into the river, have done a highly commendable job.”

I quoted myself, but I hope this helps to clarify the issues. I know you also suggested alternative ways of cleansing the church of idols by more “rational” means. But if you want to try to talk to the clergy who, in the first place, were the ones responsible for putting these idols there, then good luck. Our Lord didn’t engage the Pharisees in a dialogue or ask them permission to get rid of the moneychangers in the table. He just did it. The way of of Our Lord, or the way of the two men is more effective.
 
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bookshelf said:
He should have met your requirements and specified the 5th commandment as: Thou shalt not murder, objectively speaking!
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He should have written the Commandments in English, I agree. It would have made things so much simpler!
 
Of course killing in itself isn’t (spiritually/morally) evil. It is a material evil. The same goes for every other material evil. The fact that 99.99% of killings do rise to the level of moral evil (ie: murder) does not refute this point. You’re not seriously advocating that one shouldn’t be able to defend his wife or family with lethal force, as required, are you?
 
Sarcelle said:
Otherwise, just taking their drugs and flushing it down the toilet would just compel the addict to obtain more drugs. This time they’re going to be a lot better at concealing it from you. Kind of defeat the purpose doesn’t it?
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The analogy limps, sure. Are you implying that the Vatican is now simply going to obtain more Pachamamas, but this time just conceal them, so no one knows about them? That would solve the problem of scandal at least, would it not?
 
No

I am just saying that there are always other options available that may be even more effective.

Of course there are no guarantees but in this particular case, the options haven’t been explored which leads me to conclude that this was an attention seeking stunt.
 
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Sarcelle said:
No

I am just saying that there are always other options available that may be even more effective.
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That seems doubtful, given the Vatican’s track record for listening to faithful Catholics at this point.
 
This reminds me of the Gospel reading last Sunday’s mass about the persistence of a widow.

So what if the Churchleaders still don’t listen to this stunt? What’s next?
 
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Be that as it may though, you do concede the original point that this analogy was making, that this was not a formal act of theft/vandalism? Your response makes it sound like you do.
 
Sarcelle said:
I am just saying that there are always other options available that may be even more effective.
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Lay Catholics who have legitimate concerns about the idols have been barred from attending Vatican press conferences and when calling Clergy offices to schedule meetings, were turned away. So I’m not sure what “other options” haven’t been exhausted.
 
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That’s complete hogwash. Of course it’s demons. Anyone who naively believes otherwise is setting themselves up for possible possession.
 
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