Amb. Keyes arrested at Notre Dame

[Rach620]

I think it is important to talk about how the general public is perceiving the arrest of Keyes. The “Catholic church” is being perceived as totally hypocritical, and hypocrital (lying) on the issue of life, an issue about which they have ostensibly been the moral leader in showing and telling “the world” the right way.

I’d venture to guess that not very many in the ‘general public’ even heard about the Keyes incident. Fewer than half of weekly Mass-attending Catholics had even heard much about the ND-Obama scandal, according to the Pew poll last week, and I’m guessing the news about Keyes’ arrest has reached far fewer.

Notre Dame has not been a “Catholic university” for many many decades. The “Catholic church” in the USA has not been “Catholic” for many decades.

Honestly, this does not reflect my experience of ND in the least. This is part of the reason why so many are so frustrated and upset by the administration honoring Obama–precisely because we all thought that Catholicism at ND might be on the upswing, that the culture here was getting marginally better. Along with many other things, this has sealed in our minds that ND must completely turn around if it is going to retain its Catholic identity in any meaningful way overall, even as many, many different meaningful and deeply Catholic aspects of Notre Dame remain.

Yes, legally, Notre Dame administration can do what they did to Alan Keyes, but Notre Dame and “the church” are only digging their graves even deeper.

“Do what they did”? Keyes intended to get himself arrested. He set out to achieve his goal, and did. It’s not like the ND administration set out to get Dr. Keyes…

 

[Rach620]

Maybe Alan Keyes really did perform a service for the Church.

I, for one, did not favor his plan to protest and get arrested. It seemed a bit “drama queen” to me when I first heard about it, and I thought “so, what does he really intend to accomplish by this. People will just think him silly.”

And so people have, or worse. Keyes goes in there with the baby stroller, peacefully, and duly gets arrested. He’ll get charged with trespass and pay a fine or spend maybe a night in the can; perhaps more and perhaps both. In any event, he didn’t miss the cuffs and the ride to the PD and the booking and the bonding out and all that.

So, what’s the point?

Well, I, at least, have come to admire the man for it. It was a futile gesture and he’ll get punished for it. But in the Culture of Death that ND has decided, at least on this occasion, to endorse, what gesture is NOT futile? What action does NOT seem like a swim upstream, worthy of derision? Maybe there are others, besides me, who Keyes has touched.

All this talk of “seemliness” reminds me of something Chesterton once said. It’s not precisely on target in its terms, but it does cause me to regard “seemliness” in some things as not necessarily worthy of high regard. It goes something like this:

“The Catholic Church is for saints and sinners. For the merely respectable, the Anglican Church will do.”

“Respectable”. “Seemly”. How far apart in meaning are those words? In some sense, Keyes, in this protest is a sinner; having broken the law when it wasn’t absolutely essential to do it. Is he a saint? I don’t know, but he sure didn’t shrink from, what to most of us, including many in here, is making a “fool” of himself and suffering indignity in front of everyone, (including posters in here, and perhaps not a few ND students) for the sake of babies he’ll never see, and not one of which is his own.

I am not an Alan Keyes person. Never have been. But I’m liking him more and more as this thread progresses, and I’m sorely put to wonder whether more of us should be doing “unseemly” things.

As far as my take on “seemly” vs “unseemly”–ND Response, the student coalition, is hosting what I would call a “seemly” demonstration, not because it lacks graphic images and will be peaceful and prayerful, but because it is in keeping with the particular issues at stake in this particular situation. This isn’t a situation akin to praying outside of an abortion clinic; it’s not the March for Life. The issue here is the culture of life as it stands at Notre Dame, which should be a beacon of Catholic higher education in America. What SHOULD ND stand for, and what IS it standing for by honoring Obama? How can we most powerfully and effectively bring this to light? How can we show that we as Catholics deeply oppose honoring a president who does not at all respect the dignity of human life?

ND Response, with the blessing of Bishop D’Arcy, has chosen to host an all-night Eucharistic Adoration vigil, a Mass on the Quad, a pro-life rally including speakers specially affiliated with Notre Dame, and a prayer vigil during Commencement for greater respect for human life and for the conversion of President Obama on this issue. Randall Terry and Alan Keyes have instead decided to push baby strollers featuring Spongebob Squarepants covered in fake blood and have parked the “Truth Truck” across from Notre Dame’s gate (it features extreme graphic images, like a bloody arm reaching up from the grave, and a huge portrait of Fr. Jenkins, along with cartoon-like captions).

It seems to me that one of these demonstrations takes seriously the issues at hand, while the other offers the caricature of a response. Does that make sense? “Turning this into a circus,” as Terry wishes, doesn’t at all seem to be a constructive path–especially as he falls farther and farther SHORT of his goal. Does it really help the pro-life opposition to honoring Obama to have a fringe character such as Terry or Keyes making such a poor showing? I mean, 20 people walked on to campus with Keyes…these are not striking numbers, and I believe it would be different if the actions they were engaging in were more, well, ‘seemly’. More deeply thought-out and potentially effective.

Perhaps I’m rambling and just too attached to my alma mater. But as I have been saying since this scandal began–I most sincerely believe that it is best to follow the lead of those within the Notre Dame community (we call it a ‘family’ ) in protesting this situation.

Finally–each and every one of you is more than welcome to come to campus this weekend to participate in our peaceful, prayerful demonstrations. We are hoping to FILL THE QUAD on Sunday, and need YOU to make that a reality!

 

[Insight]

Maybe Alan Keyes really did perform a service for the Church.

I, for one, did not favor his plan to protest and get arrested. It seemed a bit “drama queen” to me when I first heard about it, and I thought “so, what does he really intend to accomplish by this. People will just think him silly.”

And so people have, or worse. Keyes goes in there with the baby stroller, peacefully, and duly gets arrested. He’ll get charged with trespass and pay a fine or spend maybe a night in the can; perhaps more and perhaps both. In any event, he didn’t miss the cuffs and the ride to the PD and the booking and the bonding out and all that.

So, what’s the point?

Well, I, at least, have come to admire the man for it. It was a futile gesture and he’ll get punished for it. But in the Culture of Death that ND has decided, at least on this occasion, to endorse, what gesture is NOT futile? What action does NOT seem like a swim upstream, worthy of derision? Maybe there are others, besides me, who Keyes has touched.

All this talk of “seemliness” reminds me of something Chesterton once said. It’s not precisely on target in its terms, but it does cause me to regard “seemliness” in some things as not necessarily worthy of high regard. It goes something like this:

“The Catholic Church is for saints and sinners. For the merely respectable, the Anglican Church will do.”

“Respectable”. “Seemly”. How far apart in meaning are those words? In some sense, Keyes, in this protest is a sinner; having broken the law when it wasn’t absolutely essential to do it. Is he a saint? I don’t know, but he sure didn’t shrink from, what to most of us, including many in here, is making a “fool” of himself and suffering indignity in front of everyone, (including posters in here, and perhaps not a few ND students) for the sake of babies he’ll never see, and not one of which is his own.

I am not an Alan Keyes person. Never have been. But I’m liking him more and more as this thread progresses, and I’m sorely put to wonder whether more of us should be doing “unseemly” things.

The culture of death has their hero; Obama. We are Christians and Catholics, our role model is Christ and we model our actions after Christ.

How would Jesus react to honoring an abortion icon before young impressionable minds?

Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business. When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers’ money and overturned the tables. And He said to those who sold doves, “Take these things away! Do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise!” (John 2: 13-22).

This is how Christ acted when they used the Temple as a market. It would be very plausible to presume that Jesus would be much more severe with a Catholic University honoring an abortion icon. One could easily surmise Jesus saying: “Do not make a Catholic Institution into a platform for abortion”.

How would Jesus react to the murder of tens of millions of innocent babies?

“And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.” (Mark 9:42).

Jesus did not compromise with evil, He stood up to evil, toe to toe.

God Bless

 

[elts1956]

I think it is important to talk about how the general public is perceiving the arrest of Keyes. The “Catholic church” is being perceived as totally hypocritical, and hypocrital (lying) on the issue of life, an issue about which they have ostensibly been the moral leader in showing and telling “the world” the right way.

I think Keyes is a brilliant orator and probably a brilliant political strategist. I have learned not to vote for candidates because of their perceived bold and righteous stance on important issues and not to be impressed with people who have great oratory skills. Keyes ran for president in California as the American Independent Party (or something like that) candidate, an action which effectively killed Chuck Baldwin’s chances in California. To me, for the issue of pro-life, that was a sneaky injurious thing for Keyes to do.

Notre Dame has not been a “Catholic university” for many many decades. The “Catholic church” in the USA has not been “Catholic” for many decades.

Yes, legally, Notre Dame administration can do what they did to Alan Keyes, but Notre Dame and “the church” are only digging their graves even deeper.

The net effect of Keyes’ action, regardless of his motives or modus operandi, was to put “the church” and “Notre Dame” down. To me, “the church” and “Notre Dame” seriously need major public chastisement, and Alan Keyes accomplished that. For that, I say a big “thank you, Dr. Keyes.”

The church has been promoting one world government, which is by its nature, a death and slavery system for all but the world’s ruling elites. That is a mortal sin in my book.

The Catholic church has become politically correct and conformed to this corrupt world system, in stark defiance and disobedience to the One Who said He is Truth.

Dr. Keyes has exposed the truth about Notre Dame and the hypocrisy of the Roman Catholic church.

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. Therefore He says: “Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light.”

Ephesians 5:11-14

I think we all must be very careful to not confuse the “Church” with some of those who represent/misrepresent her.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

I would add courageous to that description.

Five out of ten African-American babies are aborted.Margaret Sanger would be SO pleased.

Soutane:

African Americans comprise 13% of our Nation’s population but have 35% of our Nation’s Abortions :bigyikes: - Planned Parenthood is accomplishing slaughter on a scale the KKK could never even dream of. :crying:

I’m amazed and appalled the Civil Rights Leaders are so silent on this one issue that has to do with the very survival of their community! :banghead:

I think Fr. Corapi is right when he says that our leaders are doomed to make stupid and unwise decisions as long as this Slaughter of the Innocent continues as it has.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Insight]

Soutane:

African Americans comprise 13% of our Nation’s population but have 35% of our Nation’s Abortions :bigyikes: - Planned Parenthood is accomplishing slaughter on a scale the KKK could never even dream of. :crying:

I’m amazed and appalled the Civil Rights Leaders are so silent on this one issue that has to do with the very survival of their community! :banghead:

I think Fr. Corapi is right when he says that our leaders are doomed to make stupid and unwise decisions as long as this Slaughter of the Innocent continues as it has.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

Excellent point.

Planned Parenthood and other abortion clinics kill over 1,500 African American babies per day in the United States. Eighty percent of Planned Parenthood’s abortion clinics are located in minority neighborhoods. Although only 13% of American women are black, they account for over 35% of abortions in the USA. The taxes of hard working black Americans fund Planned Parenthood.

Planned Parenthood was founded by Margaret Sanger. In a speech she gave before the KKK pertaining to the Negro reduction project, she stated: “We propose to hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. And we do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members."

youtube.com/watch?v=RSiPqjU6fYI&feature=player_embedded

catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0057.html

margaretsanger.blogspot.com/2005/03/kkk-to-open-urban-family-planning.html

johnrlott.tripod.com/PP_Abortion.pdf

Obama is utilizing the same strategy, by using a Catholic Institution as a platform.

God Bless

 

[elts1956]

Regarding Rosa Parks:There is no problem with dialogue and interaction with the president, either. However, at a commencement ceremony, this is not the time or place. It brings on a free-for-all. If it doesn’t, it should. The kind of commencement day that the pro-life Catholics at their Catholic university would like to have is one where they and their loved ones are able to attend, not have to refuse to attend. This is hurting them and their special day. The Bishop said that it is acceptable to protest in a “dignified” manner. As a conservative Catholic, I’d have to side with “non-violent” protesting, dignified is a joke, buying into political correctness. I doubt Jesus looked dignified chasing money changers around. Or being our Holy King, Lord, and Immortal God hanging as a bloody mess on a cross for our sins. Isn’t He supposed to be our example?

Well, I don’t really think Pope Benedict XVI, or any of his predecessors would be there with an anti-abortion sign raised above his head. He protests and is protesting this culture of death with dignity.

Notre Dame was once considered a bastion of Catholic Faith in a Catholic Culture. What I see is the Pro Life students trying to advance that Catholic Culture by using the tools of Our Mother Church and Our Lady, Notre Dame. I have faith she will take care of these faithful and diligent students all by herself.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Hi Harvard!

We were discussing this issue on a former thread. I hope you don’t mind if I copy/paste my response on the issue you brought up concerning these graphic images and children.

Hi Anna, Havard:

I was on that former thread, and I had tried to argue from logic and even from my own experience about trying to describe the Holocaust to students without using the films that were shown at Nuremberg, and how that just didn’t work, until the students saw the films and heard the people talking for themselves.

Than then Ana posted this…
I know of a few people personally whose views changed because of these visual images.

Consent … hmm… I have 4 young children. I have mixed feelings about the exposure to children and once had to deal with it in reality, when driving home there was a gathering along the side of the road with some very graphic pictures.

I did feel that I was surprised and would have liked a moment to prepare. My youngest was only three. But since it was already done, we TALKED. They had already known about abortion, being introduced to it in the form of mini crosses on our parish lawn during past pro-life weeks. My daughter (then four) nominated herself caretaker, and every morning after dropping off my son at school, would have me stop so she could get out and set upright the crosses that had fallen over. Then she would kneel in the middle of the cross strewn field and pray. Cars would slow down because the image was so striking. This little girl alone amidst the crosses kneeling with her hands folded in prayer. Even now, almost five years later. I must pause and cry just remembering.

But I digress … back to our surprise visual display. Like I said … we TALKED.
My children were shocked, but I can’t say they were traumatized or I would be lying. Moreover it strengthened their already formed convictions, and now 2-3 years later … I am pleasantly surprised by my children’s frequent entreats to pray the Rosary outside of our local abortion mill. Most kids beg for candy.

I know as a parent, our desire is to shield our children from danger, from evil. BUT danger and evil is in the world, better to teach them and guide them through it. We have nothing to fear from the truth, even if the truth is ugly. We can trust that God will bring it to the good of those who love Him. Maybe not to the ones who don’t, but who’s fault is that?
“And there was silence for a half an hour in heaven (on the thread),” as the posters contemplated Ana’s post. All of those things you claim the “Graphic Images” are, they aren’t, because they are simply telling the truth, as our Lord did when he called the Pharisees “Hypocrites” and “Blind Guides” and when he made a whip and physically drove the money changers and those selling animals out of the Court of the Gentiles.

I came back to the Lord & His Church after being away for over 20 years, because I posted the details of how innocent people died in terrorist attacks. One night in Sept, 2003, a Palestinian terrorist murdered a world famous Trauma Surgeon, Dr. David Applebaum, and his Daughter, Nava Applebaum, who was to be married the next day, as they both waited inside a popular Jerusalem diner, Cafe Hillel. The entire Palestinian Authority Erupted in cheers as if the Palestinians had won some great military victory as soon as they heard of the deaths of Dr. Applebaum, Nava & 5 others, including the Arab busboy who tried to stop the homicide bomber. It took me 9 posts and several hours to post the details of this to the Middle East Forum I was a member of. As I wept, my “heart of stone” became a “heart of flesh” and I became able to hear the “still, small voice” of the Lord calling me home…

The NY Times, who hosted the forum, allowed those 9 posts to stay up for almost a year…

Sometimes, difficult truths have to be conveyed by difficult means. That doesn’t make them any less true, or it any less necessary that we convey them.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[Bennie_P]

As far as my take on “seemly” vs “unseemly”–ND Response, the student coalition, is hosting what I would call a “seemly” demonstration, not because it lacks graphic images and will be peaceful and prayerful, but because it is in keeping with the particular issues at stake in this particular situation. This isn’t a situation akin to praying outside of an abortion clinic; it’s not the March for Life. The issue here is the culture of life as it stands at Notre Dame, which should be a beacon of Catholic higher education in America. What SHOULD ND stand for, and what IS it standing for by honoring Obama? How can we most powerfully and effectively bring this to light? How can we show that we as Catholics deeply oppose honoring a president who does not at all respect the dignity of human life?

ND Response, with the blessing of Bishop D’Arcy, has chosen to host an all-night Eucharistic Adoration vigil, a Mass on the Quad, a pro-life rally including speakers specially affiliated with Notre Dame, and a prayer vigil during Commencement for greater respect for human life and for the conversion of President Obama on this issue. Randall Terry and Alan Keyes have instead decided to push baby strollers featuring Spongebob Squarepants covered in fake blood and have parked the “Truth Truck” across from Notre Dame’s gate (it features extreme graphic images, like a bloody arm reaching up from the grave, and a huge portrait of Fr. Jenkins, along with cartoon-like captions).

It seems to me that one of these demonstrations takes seriously the issues at hand, while the other offers the caricature of a response. Does that make sense? “Turning this into a circus,” as Terry wishes, doesn’t at all seem to be a constructive path–especially as he falls farther and farther SHORT of his goal. Does it really help the pro-life opposition to honoring Obama to have a fringe character such as Terry or Keyes making such a poor showing? I mean, 20 people walked on to campus with Keyes…these are not striking numbers, and I believe it would be different if the actions they were engaging in were more, well, ‘seemly’. More deeply thought-out and potentially effective.

Perhaps I’m rambling and just too attached to my alma mater. But as I have been saying since this scandal began–I most sincerely believe that it is best to follow the lead of those within the Notre Dame community (we call it a ‘family’ ) in protesting this situation.

Finally–each and every one of you is more than welcome to come to campus this weekend to participate in our peaceful, prayerful demonstrations. We are hoping to FILL THE QUAD on Sunday, and need YOU to make that a reality!

We each have a gift and a calling. Both demonstrations should be looked upon as being in God’s Will, for His Will and his Church is one. What the Bishop has done and planned is the response in Which God has lead him to pastor and what Keyes has done and will do is the what God has lead him to do. Don’t let the media and others lead you to judge which is the more right of the two - this let’s us be lead by Satan’s will to split the Chruch, let us not judge our brothers who’s heart is to save the children, the ones being murdered in their mothers will.

I heard Keyes on Sean Hannity last night and I didn’t hear him critize the Bishop nor the student’s plans or schedule, but he said he would continue to protest loadly and boldly. We all should support him and the Bishop with our prayers.

Just becuase we would not choose to protest in the why Keyes has done and will do becuase of some prejudgement of what is porper or what is not we should not make invalidate his protest nor his motives. He loves God, he loves the unborn his motive is out of that love and the out rage of the murder of the innocents.

 

[Ana]

Hi Anna, Havard:

As I wept, my “heart of stone” became a “heart of flesh” and I became able to hear the “still, small voice” of the Lord calling me home…

This is incredibly beautiful.

I would be interested in hearing more of the students response to the holocaust presented with pictures vs. just telling them about it. As a former student, I will say that I was incredibly moved (shocked) by pictures of the holocaust. I was in jr. high and i can still remember the pictures. They were all black and white, of the mass graves, the people lined up like cattle and crammed in boxcars, the mass graves, the shaved heads, the mass graves, the concentration camps, the mass graves, the gas chambers, and the mass graves. etc. You can probably tell which picture had the most impact for me (the mass graves.) I remember being struck with how many I had heard the number six million, but seeing all those bodies just thrown on top of eachother like trash is an image I will never forget.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Excellent point.

Planned Parenthood and other abortion clinics kill over 1,500 African American babies per day in the United States. Eighty percent of Planned Parenthood’s abortion clinics are located in minority neighborhoods. Although only 13% of American women are black, they account for over 35% of abortions in the USA. The taxes of hard working black Americans fund Planned Parenthood.

Planned Parenthood was founded by Margaret Sanger. In a speech she gave before the KKK pertaining to the Negro reduction project, she stated: “We propose to hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. And we do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members."

youtube.com/watch?v=RSiPqjU6fYI&feature=player_embedded

catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0057.html

margaretsanger.blogspot.com/2005/03/kkk-to-open-urban-family-planning.html

johnrlott.tripod.com/PP_Abortion.pdf

Obama is utilizing the same strategy, by using a Catholic Institution as a platform.

God Bless

Insight:

You’re fining in blanks I didn’t want to fill in. but, If these are true, Notre Dame is allowing itself to be used as a platform for nothing less than genocide, and the disruptive protests so many have decried are more than warranted.

This is a situation where the Catholic Bishops need to put their lives and reputations on the line if they really mean it - They need not only to stop saying “No Demonstrations”, but to LEAD the demonstrations.

Their is a Spiritual Battle to be fought, and it must be fought as if it’s the only battle by the Church. Masses, 40 Hours Adoration, Rosaries, Processions around this Now Uncatholic University. Except for the Processions around the Uncatholic University, and some form of an EXORCISM, almost all of this NEEDS to be conducted by those who are NOT at Notre Dame. But, for this to mean something to President Obama, the University and the MEDIA, DIRECT ACTION needs to be taken by people AT THE UNIVERSITY.

There is a Playbook for these things - I wish Randall Terry and Ambassador Kayes had followed it. and, I also wish Bishop D’Arcy would “take the gloves off” and organize and lead a LARGE ON CAMPUS PROTEST that included prayer, but also included speakers (Bishop Chaput, Fr. Corapi, Fr. Pavone, Ambassador Kayes, Dr. Alveda King - Even Archbishop Hepworth of the TAC), before, during and after the Commencement. Use Facebook, and every other available means, to draw Pro-Lifers from as far away as possible. and, if Notre Dame wants to have them all arrested, that’s better still… Let them arrest every Bishop & Archbishop who can make it…

I can’t help but thinking that if the Catholics (and other Christians) in Europe would have yelled, “Bloody Murder!” when Hitler murdered the head of Catholic Action and then forced the Nazis the imprison them, the regime would have fallen just from being deligitimized at the start. I’m sure a few hundred Catholics would have died, but the 16 million who died in the Holocaust, and the 40 million who died in the European Theater during WW II wouldn’t have died!

During Vietnam, President Johnson tried something called “Measured Escalation” where he tried to limit our involvement & our response. It failed miserably, and we lost. We’ve tried the same thing with the people who run Notre Dame, and I’m fairly sure this hasn’t got through to them. I’m sure that, if those who run Notre Dame were hit with a sustained full spectrum Political and P.R. Campaign, they’d think twice, because it would really hurt recruitment and fundraising.

Eventually, we have to decide if we are willing to risk our reputations, and that of Notre Dame, on this type of sustained campaign. Remember, the other side has waged and is already waging this type of campaign…

Your Brother and Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

This is incredibly beautiful.

I would be interested in hearing more of the students response to the holocaust presented with pictures vs. just telling them about it. As a former student, I will say that I was incredibly moved (shocked) by pictures of the holocaust. I was in jr. high and i can still remember the pictures. They were all black and white, of the mass graves, the people lined up like cattle and crammed in boxcars, the mass graves, the shaved heads, the mass graves, the concentration camps, the mass graves, the gas chambers, and the mass graves. etc. You can probably tell which picture had the most impact for me (the mass graves.) I remember being struck with how many I had heard the number six million, but seeing all those bodies just thrown on top of eachother like trash is an image I will never forget.

Ana:

Thank you for your kind response, but someone here (me) has yet to go to sleep…

I’ll never forget the images, either, and neither did my dad who lived some of them when he “liberated” one of the “Camps”. He lived with the images as nightmares for most of the rest of his life until he died in 1985.

To all of my Bothers and Sisters, Goodnight.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Archie]

"I think we all must be very careful to not confuse the “Church” with some of those who represent/misrepresent her. "

I was only trying to convey how the general secular public hears about this and then makes a big deal out of it to castigate Catholics and Christians.

I do not much partake of the mainstream media. I heard about this on a locally produced public access TV show that purports to comment on news items not usually commented on or commented on accurately in the mainstream media. I therefore may have misspoken to say how the public perceives this. I wonder if the mainstream media has covered this story. I would think that the mainstream media would exploit it for all its worth to make Christians, Catholics, and those who see Obama as anti-life appear totally unAmerican, unpatriotic, and not true Christians.

I think that our culture of death gradually started about a century ago in the USA. Immoral sexual behavior has been encouraged by our societal institutions, including the Christian churches. I have never heard a protestant preacher or a Catholic priest speak strongly in a sermon promoting chastity and speaking plainly about the sin of sexual relations out of wedlock.

Our local Catholic hospital network had a big soiree with Henry Kissinger as the guest of honor. There were pictures in the children’s hospital magazine of several local children of Christian and Jewish families all gathered around closely to Henry Kissinger!

The issue of “life” is far deeper than being against abortions. We have been collectivized. Each precious human life is no longer of value. We no longer have “equal justice” under the law for individuals with UNALIENABLE Creator endowed rights. We have “social justice”. The good of the collective as determined day-to-day by our president and societal institutions is ANTI-HUMAN, ANTI-HUMAN LIFE.

The secular world we live in today in the USA is an Orwellian world. All Christian values, all “human values” are turned upside down.

The Catholic church is being perceived these days, especially since the pope’s visit to Israel, as being supportive of Israel’s what many describe as “slaughter of the innocents” of Palestine.

To me, the Catholic church and all Christian denominations have been slowly undermined from within. They have become corporations submissive to laws that negate life and those who want to live as Christ has shown us.

I will say again that the Roman Catholic church has for many years promoted a one world government. The popes have spoken favorably of the United Nations. I should not have to tell anyone how hideous and horrible the United Nations is regarding human life. The one world government is a totalitarian feudal system with a select elite deciding who will live and who will be allowed to procreate, and really the goal is to create super humans exclusively in laboratory conditions. These elites have stated their goals plainly for many years. They do not want a world population over one billion people. They have already been working diligently toward that goal.

For the Christian / Catholic church in the USA to be truly pro-life and to be perceived as pro-life, they need to withdraw from this anti-life system in many more ways than just allowing or disallowing certain pro-life demonstrations on their educational institutions.

 

[Ana]

We each have a gift and a calling. Both demonstrations should be looked upon as being in God’s Will, for His Will and his Church is one. What the Bishop has done and planned is the response in Which God has lead him to pastor and what Keyes has done and will do is the what God has lead him to do. Don’t let the media and others lead you to judge which is the more right of the two - this let’s us be lead by Satan’s will to split the Chruch, let us not judge our brothers who’s heart is to save the children, the ones being murdered in their mothers will.

I heard Keyes on Sean Hannity last night and I didn’t hear him critize the Bishop nor the student’s plans or schedule, but he said he would continue to protest loadly and boldly. We all should support him and the Bishop with our prayers.

Just becuase we would not choose to protest in the why Keyes has done and will do becuase of some prejudgement of what is porper or what is not we should not make invalidate his protest nor his motives. He loves God, he loves the unborn his motive is out of that love and the out rage of the murder of the innocents.

I think this is an excellent post. It is important to remember that in this body of Christ are many different personalities, temperaments, experiences, strengths and weakness. I remember a priest once told me God doesn’t need another St. Mary Magdalane (my patron), He needs a St. Ana. I pondered this deeply and understood it to mean that though the Christ is the head of the body, his truths though constant, will be expressed differently through each unique individual. Culture, experiences, personality, level of holiness would all play a role in the expression of the love of Christ. Even if someone does not do something exactly the way that we would, or say it exactly the way we would, is it truth that is being expressed, even if we personally don’t like the method?

Personally, I think that a baby stroller with blood is a little tacky (did someone say something about spongebob?), but I am not to judge the* motives or sincerety* of Mr. Keyes expression of the horrors of abortion.

My husbands very formal and reserved English family were often scandalized by my more open and expressive Hispanic side of the family. They felt that our loudness and our closeness (we fight hard and we love hard) was somehow a bit incivilized. I felt their family was cold and heartless and fake. Now years later, I have come to appreciate their way of expressing love. It was just different than I was used to, and now they are quite more relaxed and less judgemental when it comes to mine. We all love, it is just expressed in different ways. In our case, culture had a lot to do with the differances, but the love was the same only expressed differently.

 

[disciple_1]

Originally posted by elts 1956:

Well, I don’t really think Pope Benedict XVI, or any of his predecessors would be there with an anti-abortion sign raised above his head. He protests and is protesting this culture of death with dignity.

Notre Dame was once considered a bastion of Catholic Faith in a Catholic Culture. What I see is the Pro Life students trying to advance that Catholic Culture by using the tools of Our Mother Church and Our Lady, Notre Dame. I have faith she will take care of these faithful and diligent students all by herself.

I recall a little something Pope Benedict XVI said that started a firestorm among Muslims. He isn’t at Notre Dame, that is not his role. The students who are at Notre Dame who are refusing to attend their own graduation are taking a stand. I agree with them. That does not mean that what Keyes did was wrong because he and other pro-life Christians looked undignified. Just because the Pope doesn’t come the the campus to stand beside him with a stop abortion sign does not mean that he wouldn’t, or that he disagrees with what Keyes did. Our Catholic bishops made a statement that is being disregarded. We are called to be a light and stand on our moral principles. That is the point. It is a lame argument to say that our Pope wouldn’t stand at a protest with a sign, to defend looking dignified. “Advancing the Catholic Culture by using the tools…” It looks to me like there is a culture of death being advanced by a Catholic school administration that is using the tools of our American liberties, including freedom of speech and freedom to diss our Catholic Pope and Bishops.

Our president, being a constitutional lawyer, with an extreme anti-life agenda and record, getting an honorary law degree from Notre Dame is unacceptable. I heard that possibly about 50 students may take part in peaceful prayer and protest out of about 1500 students, rather than attend their commencement. These young Catholics are to be applauded. That is doing something, at least.

When Catholics take this position:

I have faith she will take care of these faithful and diligent students all by herself.

It is insightful, if you ask me, that this is the short-sighted, self-centered thinking that does not see the depth of the future of our country that will be left to our children and grandchildren. Jesus on the cross actually entrusted His mother to another. We are responsible one for another. He didn’t just pray, Jesus was an active, caring individual and he put how He may look to the world last, for how can one be seen as our Immortal God when He hangs dying a victim of brutal abuse and torture in a humiliating human death on the cross? Again, I am pleased that some of the students are taking a stand, but I am dismayed that these are the ones who will miss out on their commencement, and disheartened that there are so few willing to take a stand. I also believe that Alan Keyes should be commended, not seen as an embarrassment to Catholics. Just about every Catholic I know voted for this president. They all claim to be pro-life. Something is very wrong here. We have lost our script and forgotten to take our significant role in impacting the play of human history.

 

[Ana]

Rach, I understand your desire to keep the campus of your beloved University from being turned into a freak side show. But to others who are more bold, loud, and risky in their actions, the response of the campus may seem to them quiet, passive and safe. I believe that both are expressions of the love of God expressed in the unique way of the person/s expressing this message. Would I have strolled thorugh with a bloody baby carriage … um NO. I personally am more in line with the beautiful and prayerful way of the college students. But this is not something that affects only the students. This will have an impact on the future of ALL Catholic institutions, and because of the scandal invited by Fr. Jenkins, it has reached BEYOND the students there. It makes sense that the responses will be varied and unique as that is how God has made us. Different, yet complementary as we who are fighting for the unborn are all expressing the same thing, only in different ways. Some ways may be more pleasing to one, as other ways may be more pleasing to the other.

Though the campus may be able to establish some control over its students, because of the unity and common ground, as for people off campus the response will be more varied and less able to be controlled. I commend the students there, I am proud to be Catholic and when I see the beautiful prayerful response of students like you, I am filled with hope for our future. Thank you for the info, I am seriously and prayerfully considering attending on the 17th to stand with the current students of Notre Dame, and perhaps at least one future student. My 11 yr old boy has wanted to attend Notre Dame (and play football) since he could talk. It hurts me that perhaps this beautiful and historical Catholic Instituion may not be an option for him in the future.

 

[Ridgerunner]

As far as my take on “seemly” vs “unseemly”–ND Response, the student coalition, is hosting what I would call a “seemly” demonstration, not because it lacks graphic images and will be peaceful and prayerful, but because it is in keeping with the particular issues at stake in this particular situation. This isn’t a situation akin to praying outside of an abortion clinic; it’s not the March for Life. The issue here is the culture of life as it stands at Notre Dame, which should be a beacon of Catholic higher education in America. What SHOULD ND stand for, and what IS it standing for by honoring Obama? How can we most powerfully and effectively bring this to light? How can we show that we as Catholics deeply oppose honoring a president who does not at all respect the dignity of human life?

ND Response, with the blessing of Bishop D’Arcy, has chosen to host an all-night Eucharistic Adoration vigil, a Mass on the Quad, a pro-life rally including speakers specially affiliated with Notre Dame, and a prayer vigil during Commencement for greater respect for human life and for the conversion of President Obama on this issue. Randall Terry and Alan Keyes have instead decided to push baby strollers featuring Spongebob Squarepants covered in fake blood and have parked the “Truth Truck” across from Notre Dame’s gate (it features extreme graphic images, like a bloody arm reaching up from the grave, and a huge portrait of Fr. Jenkins, along with cartoon-like captions).

It seems to me that one of these demonstrations takes seriously the issues at hand, while the other offers the caricature of a response. Does that make sense? “Turning this into a circus,” as Terry wishes, doesn’t at all seem to be a constructive path–especially as he falls farther and farther SHORT of his goal. Does it really help the pro-life opposition to honoring Obama to have a fringe character such as Terry or Keyes making such a poor showing? I mean, 20 people walked on to campus with Keyes…these are not striking numbers, and I believe it would be different if the actions they were engaging in were more, well, ‘seemly’. More deeply thought-out and potentially effective.

Perhaps I’m rambling and just too attached to my alma mater. But as I have been saying since this scandal began–I most sincerely believe that it is best to follow the lead of those within the Notre Dame community (we call it a ‘family’ ) in protesting this situation.

Finally–each and every one of you is more than welcome to come to campus this weekend to participate in our peaceful, prayerful demonstrations. We are hoping to FILL THE QUAD on Sunday, and need YOU to make that a reality!

Maybe it takes all kinds. Notwithstanding that his protest is in questionable taste, he is putting himself in a position of being criticized and humiliated by many, including those like me who think it is in questionable taste. We all might take a lesson from that, and know that the dignity and seemliness we think we have is not necessarily the only “right” form of witness to the truth. Wasn’t it St. Therese who declared that “there are many flowers in my Father’s garden”? Maybe the student protesters are roses and Keyes is a forget-me-not.

 

[Ana]

Wasn’t it St. Therese who declared that “there are many flowers in my Father’s garden”? Maybe the student protesters are roses and Keyes is a forget-me-not.

I think this is a profound statement and effectively nutshelled what my last hundred word post attempted to say.

 

[CoachSTL]

I was raised as a Catholic and attended Ursuline Academy K through 12. I am no longer a practicing Catholic. I have not thrown out the baby with the bath water.

I want to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and that is what I did in my posting.

Calling people “conspiracy theorists” is very very old and weak. Research the word “conspiracy” in the scriptures.

Here are a few facts about Reverent Theordor Hesburgh, president of Notre Dame from 1952 to 1987.
1986—Rockefeller Foundation gives grants of $6.3 million to various population programs. (To the Rockefellers, “population programs” means forced abortions, genocide, and eugenics and trading food to starving women in exchange for sterilization procedure.) Rev. Theodore Hesburgh, a Catholic priest and president of the University of Notre Dame, has served as chairman of the foundation’s board of trustees from 1977 to 1982.

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Concerning Catholics, in the mid-1960s the Rockefeller plan included trying to influence Pope Paul VI about the church’s opposition to IUDs. In 1972 David Rockefeller named Rev. Theodore Hesburgh (president of the University of Notre Dame) to the board of Chase Manhattan Bank, and from 1977 to 1982 Rev. Hesburgh was chairman of the Rockefeller Foundation.

despatch.cth.com.au/Books_D/Suter_Moyes.htm

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8.PLANETARY CITIZENS
Suter quotes from members of “The Planetary Citizens”, who are they?
Cumbey’s "HIDDEN DANGERS OF THE RAINBOW":
"Planetary citizens enjoys the support of many and varied prominent personages from about the globe. David Spangler sits on its board of directors. Donald Keys, another individual publicly associated with Findhorn Foundation was a founder along with NORMAN COUSINS, the head of the invitor committee for the World Council of Wise Persons. U Thant was also involved in the original organizational work. Theodore Hesburgh of Notre Dame University and Peter Caddy, the founder of Findhorn Foundation, are also connected as committee chairmen. According to a description of Planetary Citizens in `New Age Politics’ by Mark Satin, their purpose is to aid the " World Servers everywhere." Since the purpose of the World Servers is to serve as the vanguard for the "reappearance
***of Christ" (not Jesus, according to this crew), it is not hard to figure that the purpose of Planetary Citizens, by extension, must be the same." ***[pg 196]

Archie,

If you don’t mind, and in order to understand your point of view more and for you to understand mine too, could you tell me your reason or reasons why and when you decided not to be a practicing Catholic? It would help me greatly.

 

[Archie]

CoachSTL said

"Archie,

If you don’t mind, and in order to understand your point of view more and for you to understand mine too, could you tell me your reason or reasons why and when you decided not to be a practicing Catholic? It would help me greatly. "

I guess it was a combination of things. I am a 63 year female (Archie is my beloved deceased dachshund’s name). I stopped going to church about ten years ago. At first, I just found that I did not want to go to confession. It was an experience that made me feel guilty and never enough and sort of a perfunctory experience. (the sin of scrupulosity ?) For years I went to mass regularly but not communion. But then I had a negative experience working for a priest at a parish and then for the Catholic Charities that he was transferred to.

Then I started studying world and worldly philosophies and forms of government and the bible. I came to understand “the mystery of iniquity” than runs through human history on earth. I believe that there is one giant conspiracy against God. The conspiracy that appears to have begun with the Illuminati is only a latter day version of the ancient mystery religions of Babylon and before. There really are some very powerful people in this world who worship Lucifer and thank that he is the “good god” and the “light bearer” and who want to kill all nation states, all religions (especially Christianity and the monotheistic religions) and really want to annihilate all humans.

Jesus said He is Truth. Some “have not a love of the Truth.” It appears to me that people have had their thoughts and tastes molded by these false world movements and philosophies.

Centralized planning, big government, is anti-Christ because it is anti-human beings. It is a progression from freedom to despotism. We no longer have “the rule of law” in the USA. We have a dictatorship. Both “the right” and “the left” are despotic and tyrannical. God wants Individuals to experience the glorious freedom of the children of God, and not only in spirit.

I also see problems with some of the main teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. Jesus is the only way to the Father. We have the precious word of God, the bible that has been sort of ignored by Catholic religious and theologians. Never one time in 12 years of Catholic grade school and high school did a nun or brother or priest bring a bible into class to teach us.

I heard a Catholic lay theologian who taught at a local Catholic university say when asked in a public debate what did Christ on the cross mean when He said “It is finished”. The theologian replied “we do not know.”

I really do not know if I have answered you completely or honestly enough, but I did try.