AMC's The Walking Dead: Is anyone else noticing this pattern?

[Robyn_p]

Alright, I just needed a place to vent about this show after that last episode on Sunday. I was going to post on the IMDB boards but…those boards are disturbing to me. People here for the most part are much more friendly and actually capable of intelligent conversation.

Anyways (If you watched the last episode you’ll know what I’m talking about) WHY?!? Why, why, why does the show constantly do this? Every time a character starts to have some real moral strength or genuine goodness, or if they are dealing with the world in a healthy way, they kill them off. Dale, Herschell, Micha, Bob, and now Beth? Come on.

Yeah…I think I’m about done with this show. There’s several reasons, but the last episode really cemented it for me. I realized the writers don’t really have any direction they want to take the show except “Oh no! So and so died! The world sucks.” Thanks, but no thanks. I can just turn on the news for that.

Pretty sure it’s always been that way though, so I don’t know why it took me so long to realize this. :shrug:At first, I was ok with it. It was interesting to see how people react when the world collapses. And the first season was actually exciting and scary. But you can’t keep that formula going for five years, it loses it’s impact. I thought by now they would have started changing things up.

I keep feeling like the writers ALMOST have a good thing going. But they don’t seem to know what to do with it. At first I thought they were trying to say that surviving at all costs is wrong, that being alive yet losing your humanity isn’t worth it in the end. That love and mercy are still valuable even with the world collapsing. That’s how it started out, but now I don’t see that. EVERYBODY is losing their humanity. The ones who don’t, get killed off. I’m sorry, but there needs to be some light to counter the darkness. It’s like the writers know how to write about evil and blood and gore but they don’t know what to do with goodness. It’s frustrating to me.

That, and the fact that I can summarize the last three seasons like this: Our group needs to find food/shelter/weapons, they run into another group of survivors. That group is led by a sociopath. (Governor, Cannibal, Dawn) Now they have to fight these people as well as avoid zombies. Someone gets kidnapped, (Maggie, Glen and Daryl at Woodbury, the entire group at Terminus, Beth and Carol at the hospital. See a pattern?) and they go and rescue them. Big showdown, lots of bullets flying, zombie heads get smashed, someone the group really loved and looked to gets killed, lather, rinse, repeat.

I don’t mind formulaic shows normally. I liked shows like Castle and Monk and Chuck, which basically do the same thing every week. But those shows have unique enough individual mysteries and good chemistry between the characters that it makes it entertaining to watch at least. The Walking Dead doesn’t have either of those. For that show to work, there needs to be some progress. We need to know WHY people are turning into zombies, or at least go somewhere else besides Georgia. If you’re not going to let the compelling characters live, then give us some kind of resolution or point. Watching them going in circles doing the same thing over and over is bad television.

Phew. Ok done with my rant. Didn’t realize I had that much to say about it.

So does anyone else feel like this or am I the only one?

 

[FaithfulKnight]

It’s run it’s course.

 

[MacBP]

I’m not sure if its fair to say that that the show has ignored the moral dimension to their characters. It is noteworthy that Carl, of late, has become Rick’s moral center. I was particularly fond of Carl’s speech to Rick when he’s trying to convince him to take a chance on Fr. Gabriel.

I feel as though people miss the point. Going on Roamers and Lurkers, the peanut gallery seem to think that the most ruthless, blood thirsty solution possible is the only way to go about survival. However, when you look at what happens in the show, you find that the most ruthless and bloodthirsty characters (e.g. the Governor, the Termites, and to a lesser extent Dawn) were almost universally toppled due to their own brutality. If any of these characters had acted morally, they would have remained in power.

Conversely, we can see that Rick’s group, while far from perfect, is strong precisely because they have showcased generosity and mercy. Their willingness to help others has given them their impressive capabilities. Rick in particular is undeniably brutal, and he seems to be moving towards the monsters that he has been fighting, but looking at the show until now I think it clearly supports the need to maintain one’s humanity in the face of evil.

 

[MacBP]

Although I should say that from a story telling standpoint, the hospital arc was abysmal. Absolutely nothing has change since the Daryl and Carol went after that car. There was no character development and no plot advancement. The only significant piece of information didn’t even happen in the hospital (Eugene’s Confession). Rather disappointing after the first three episodes. Perhaps the second half will be better

 

[Robyn_p]

I’m not sure if its fair to say that that the show has ignored the moral dimension to their characters. It is noteworthy that Carl, of late, has become Rick’s moral center. I was particularly fond of Carl’s speech to Rick when he’s trying to convince him to take a chance on Fr. Gabriel.

True, it’s not completely absent. But it just seems like every time a character is or starts to become the moral center of the group, they die. I’ve just become so emotionally detached from the characters now, even the ones who have survived from the beginning. The writers really need to figure out a way to keep the show interesting without resorting to just killing off a character when the show gets boring. It’s repetitive.

I do like how Carl is regaining his humanity. He started to really lose it there in season three or four.(I forget which one) But, that probably means he’s going to bite it next.

I feel as though people miss the point. Going on Roamers and Lurkers, the peanut gallery seem to think that the most ruthless, blood thirsty solution possible is the only way to go about survival. However, when you look at what happens in the show, you find that the most ruthless and bloodthirsty characters (e.g. the Governor, the Termites, and to a lesser extent Dawn) were almost universally toppled due to their own brutality. If any of these characters had acted morally, they would have remained in power.

Conversely, we can see that Rick’s group, while far from perfect, is strong precisely because they have showcased generosity and mercy. Their willingness to help others has given them their impressive capabilities. Rick in particular is undeniably brutal, and he seems to be moving towards the monsters that he has been fighting, but looking at the show until now I think it clearly supports the need to maintain one’s humanity in the face of evil.

Hmmm. You have a good point that the truly evil characters end up destroying themselves. But it still seems like mercy is considered a bad choice also. Every time they choose it, it comes back to haunt them.

Although I should say that from a story telling standpoint, the hospital arc was abysmal. Absolutely nothing has change since the Daryl and Carol went after that car. There was no character development and no plot advancement. The only significant piece of information didn’t even happen in the hospital (Eugene’s Confession). Rather disappointing after the first three episodes.

YES! That’s my biggest problem with the show. There’s way too many episodes where nothing is added to the plot. That might work in a comic book, but not a TV series. There needs to be progress.

And like I said, that whole hospital storyline was one we’ve already seen multiple times. It was almost the exact same situation as Woodbury and Terminus. We didn’t need that at all.

Beth’s death should have been handled better also. It just felt lazy and pointless for a character that’s been on the show since practically the beginning.

Perhaps the second half will be better

I’ve been saying that to myself a lot lately…

 

[Gordon_Sims]

Have you ever read the source material? It’s horrendous. The writing is juvenile at best. With the exception of Rick and the villain of each story arc (who needs to be more villainous than the one who preceded him), pretty much every single character’s sole motivating factor isn’t survival but instead is to get into the pants of whoever is currently catching their interest. The only characterization in the comic books for the bulk of the characters (even some who are interesting in the show) is who they’re sleeping with. The author does seem to get the occasional grand idea for a storyline but he’s completely unable to follow through so whenever he gets in over his head, he just kills everyone off and starts over. He’s incapable of writing realistic relationships, which is why everything boils down to sex. It’s insipid. The people writing the show are far better, which is why they only base the show loosely on the comic, but it would be nice if they would decide on a cause for the zombies and then set a direction for the show. Playing the survival game in rotating locations may be fine for the people who like the comic books, but the show really needs more substance.

 

[DaveBj]

This thread reminds me of the passage in the first book of St. Augustine’s Confessions, where he criticizes his former self for getting emotionally involved to the point of weeping in the tragic story of a fictional character in a drama.

 

[captainrick]

All I want to know is why, after all this time, they can’t seem to get out of Georgia!

And why, even if someone has been dead for only a few minutes, and they “turn,” their skull is easily crushed by stomping on it?

 

[Robyn_p]

Have you ever read the source material? It’s horrendous. The writing is juvenile at best. With the exception of Rick and the villain of each story arc (who needs to be more villainous than the one who preceded him), pretty much every single character’s sole motivating factor isn’t survival but instead is to get into the pants of whoever is currently catching their interest. The only characterization in the comic books for the bulk of the characters (even some who are interesting in the show) is who they’re sleeping with. The author does seem to get the occasional grand idea for a storyline but he’s completely unable to follow through so whenever he gets in over his head, he just kills everyone off and starts over. He’s incapable of writing realistic relationships, which is why everything boils down to sex. It’s insipid. The people writing the show are far better, which is why they only base the show loosely on the comic, but it would be nice if they would decide on a cause for the zombies and then set a direction for the show. Playing the survival game in rotating locations may be fine for the people who like the comic books, but the show really needs more substance.

I never have read the comics, but after your description, I’m definitely staying away from them. Sounds even more painful. Glad the show is only loosely based on the comics at least.

I guess what’s just frustrating to me is I see a lot of potential in the show, and I keep hoping for it to live up to that. But then they just settle for cheap scares and deaths.

 

[Robyn_p]

This thread reminds me of the passage in the first book of St. Augustine’s Confessions, where he criticizes his former self for getting emotionally involved to the point of weeping in the tragic story of a fictional character in a drama.

Hey well, I’ve actually never cried from this show.

All I want to know is why, after all this time, they can’t seem to get out of Georgia!

And why, even if someone has been dead for only a few minutes, and they “turn,” their skull is easily crushed by stomping on it?

All good questions. Or how about why none of them have ever tried to find a boat? Or even mention a boat? Or why all the female zombies wear sweaters and long skirts? I mean, do women not wear jeans in Georgia or something?

I could do this all day.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I don’t know what people find so fascinating about these types of shows! My son and daughter-in-law record the episodes and I walked into the room the other night while they were watching. I saw less than 120 seconds and I was repulsed. The fascination with zombies and vampires is lost to me I don’t understand how these types of shows and movies capture such a large audience.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

I never have read the comics, but after your description, I’m definitely staying away from them. Sounds even more painful. Glad the show is only loosely based on the comics at least.

I guess what’s just frustrating to me is I see a lot of potential in the show, and I keep hoping for it to live up to that. But then they just settle for cheap scares and deaths.

I think I would have loved the first 20 issues or so when I was 12, but after that, even at that age, I would have given up on it for being too immature.

Zombies are great for a standalone movie but I don’t think they really lend themselves to an extended narrative. Once you get past the initial shock and survival, what next? They’re slow-moving, mindless creatures, and if you are mobile, have your senses and opposable thumbs, there’s no reason they should pose any threat to you once you figure out how to deal with them. So once you get past the initial outbreak and have the survival thing figured out, you need something more to go on–finding a cure, whatever–otherwise the narrative gets stale. The Walking Dead turned to human antagonists pretty quickly. The only way they can keep the tension/drama going is for each new human baddie to be worse than the last. The Governor was like Hitler, Ed Gein and John Wayne Gacy all rolled into one, so when you start with someone who’s so comically, over-the-top evil, topping him turns your work into a farce. That’s the main reason the show should have broken entirely from the comic book continuity in season four.

Something else that makes it more and more difficult to enjoy the show (and I still do for the time being) is that, if you figure out a sure fire way to thwart the zombies (The Walking Dead has at least two–Michonne’s pets and covering yourself in zombie parts), if you don’t have everyone using those means from that point forward, you really strain credibility and can’t be taken seriously. After the prison attack, or the farm being overrun, etc. Rick should have just yelled, “Quick, everyone! Grab a couple zombies, hack off their arms and jaws and attach those leashes I’ve been requiring you to carry with you at all times and we can all just slowly walk to safety!” Or, better yet, “Quick, everyone! Run to the holding pen and grab your pets and we can all just slowly walk to safety!” There’s no justifiable reason for a scavenging trip to be anything more than a boring, routine trip to a nearby town with your pets in tow. “Any problems?” “Nah. We ran into a few big groups of walkers, but we just strolled right through them.”

 

[roseproject]

This thread reminds me of the passage in the first book of St. Augustine’s Confessions, where he criticizes his former self for getting emotionally involved to the point of weeping in the tragic story of a fictional character in a drama.

Is there really anything wrong with that though? As someone who is currently developing a story, I’d like for my story to create strong emotions for the reader. Isn’t that one of the purposes of stories/drama/etc? To feel for the characters and even relate to them in one way or another and, through their stories, get a new fresh outlook on life? I wonder why this saint would beat himself up for feeling this way

 

[Robyn_p]

Is there really anything wrong with that though? As someone who is currently developing a story, I’d like for my story to create strong emotions for the reader. Isn’t that one of the purposes of stories/drama/etc? To feel for the characters and even relate to them in one way or another and, through their stories, get a new fresh outlook on life? I wonder why this saint would beat himself up for feeling this way

If I remember correctly, it’s because he weeped more for a fictional character than for his own sins. In other words, his priorities were backwards.

There’s nothing wrong per se with feeling attached to a fictional character, as long as you don’t let that distract you from real life.

 

[edwest2]

Alright, I just needed a place to vent about this show after that last episode on Sunday. I was going to post on the IMDB boards but…those boards are disturbing to me. People here for the most part are much more friendly and actually capable of intelligent conversation.

Anyways (If you watched the last episode you’ll know what I’m talking about) WHY?!? Why, why, why does the show constantly do this? Every time a character starts to have some real moral strength or genuine goodness, or if they are dealing with the world in a healthy way, they kill them off. Dale, Herschell, Micha, Bob, and now Beth? Come on.

Yeah…I think I’m about done with this show. There’s several reasons, but the last episode really cemented it for me. I realized the writers don’t really have any direction they want to take the show except “Oh no! So and so died! The world sucks.” Thanks, but no thanks. I can just turn on the news for that.

Pretty sure it’s always been that way though, so I don’t know why it took me so long to realize this. :shrug:At first, I was ok with it. It was interesting to see how people react when the world collapses. And the first season was actually exciting and scary. But you can’t keep that formula going for five years, it loses it’s impact. I thought by now they would have started changing things up.

I keep feeling like the writers ALMOST have a good thing going. But they don’t seem to know what to do with it. At first I thought they were trying to say that surviving at all costs is wrong, that being alive yet losing your humanity isn’t worth it in the end. That love and mercy are still valuable even with the world collapsing. That’s how it started out, but now I don’t see that. EVERYBODY is losing their humanity. The ones who don’t, get killed off. I’m sorry, but there needs to be some light to counter the darkness. It’s like the writers know how to write about evil and blood and gore but they don’t know what to do with goodness. It’s frustrating to me.

That, and the fact that I can summarize the last three seasons like this: Our group needs to find food/shelter/weapons, they run into another group of survivors. That group is led by a sociopath. (Governor, Cannibal, Dawn) Now they have to fight these people as well as avoid zombies. Someone gets kidnapped, (Maggie, Glen and Daryl at Woodbury, the entire group at Terminus, Beth and Carol at the hospital. See a pattern?) and they go and rescue them. Big showdown, lots of bullets flying, zombie heads get smashed, someone the group really loved and looked to gets killed, lather, rinse, repeat.

I don’t mind formulaic shows normally. I liked shows like Castle and Monk and Chuck, which basically do the same thing every week. But those shows have unique enough individual mysteries and good chemistry between the characters that it makes it entertaining to watch at least. The Walking Dead doesn’t have either of those. For that show to work, there needs to be some progress. We need to know WHY people are turning into zombies, or at least go somewhere else besides Georgia. If you’re not going to let the compelling characters live, then give us some kind of resolution or point. Watching them going in circles doing the same thing over and over is bad television.

Phew. Ok done with my rant. Didn’t realize I had that much to say about it.

So does anyone else feel like this or am I the only one?

[WARNING: Spoilers contained in the following.]

First, the show celebrates death. Do we really need to see zombie skulls smashed to pieces or chowing down on a living person? Sure, the premise is it’s the zombie apocalypse - it’s kill or be killed. Then we throw in human bandits, and cannibals with graphic shots of a human carcass or two, and people getting their throats slit with blood pouring into a trough like slaughtering cattle.

The characters come off as realistic as they descend to greater acts of depravity and violence. BUT, where’s the hope? In one episode where part of the group is forced into a boxcar, they meet a man who says he knows the cause of the zombie outbreak, tells people it was somehow involved with the military and he knows how to stop it but he must get somewhere (I forgot) to get the cure/stop the outbreak.

As a professional writer and editor, with direct contact with a Hollywood script editor, and who is mentoring a young screenwriter, I seriously doubt that there will be ANY final resolution. The living characters will get worse. As in during Talking Dead when one of the show creators talked about one of the lead characters embracing the next level of killing and deciding he needs to do more of it. The show will end when they run out of new settings to do the same thing over and over - graphically kill zombies. It was heartwarming to hear about an episode where zombies are found in water and are now missing their skin. Great holiday material

And the spin-off show they have planned? Seriously? New faces, new places, same old, same old. Time to make the donuts… I mean, kill zombies. The show turns my stomach. It’s not what I want floating around in my head, but in order to criticize a TV show, you’ve got to watch enough of it to really see what the writers are up to.

As people slowly get tired of the new scenery, and characters they are fond of getting killed, rinse and repeat, the ratings will drop and drop and the show’s producers will pull the plug.

Ed

 

[Robyn_p]

I think I would have loved the first 20 issues or so when I was 12, but after that, even at that age, I would have given up on it for being too immature.

Zombies are great for a standalone movie but I don’t think they really lend themselves to an extended narrative. Once you get past the initial shock and survival, what next? They’re slow-moving, mindless creatures, and if you are mobile, have your senses and opposable thumbs, there’s no reason they should pose any threat to you once you figure out how to deal with them. So once you get past the initial outbreak and have the survival thing figured out, you need something more to go on–finding a cure, whatever–otherwise the narrative gets stale. The Walking Dead turned to human antagonists pretty quickly. The only way they can keep the tension/drama going is for each new human baddie to be worse than the last. The Governor was like Hitler, Ed Gein and John Wayne Gacy all rolled into one, so when you start with someone who’s so comically, over-the-top evil, topping him turns your work into a farce. That’s the main reason the show should have broken entirely from the comic book continuity in season four.

Something else that makes it more and more difficult to enjoy the show (and I still do for the time being) is that, if you figure out a sure fire way to thwart the zombies (The Walking Dead has at least two–Michonne’s pets and covering yourself in zombie parts), if you don’t have everyone using those means from that point forward, you really strain credibility and can’t be taken seriously. After the prison attack, or the farm being overrun, etc. Rick should have just yelled, “Quick, everyone! Grab a couple zombies, hack off their arms and jaws and attach those leashes I’ve been requiring you to carry with you at all times and we can all just slowly walk to safety!” Or, better yet, “Quick, everyone! Run to the holding pen and grab your pets and we can all just slowly walk to safety!” There’s no justifiable reason for a scavenging trip to be anything more than a boring, routine trip to a nearby town with your pets in tow. “Any problems?” “Nah. We ran into a few big groups of walkers, but we just strolled right through them.”

All good points. You know, it seemed at first they were moving the plot along with Eugene’s storyline. I was hoping there really would have been a cure. That’s why I kept watching this season actually. But obviously that went nowhere.

 

[Robyn_p]

[WARNING: Spoilers contained in the following.]

First, the show celebrates death. Do we really need to see zombie skulls smashed to pieces or chowing down on a living person? Sure, the premise is it’s the zombie apocalypse - it’s kill or be killed. Then we throw in human bandits, and cannibals with graphic shots of a human carcass or two, and people getting their throats slit with blood pouring into a trough like slaughtering cattle.

The characters come off as realistic as they descend to greater acts of depravity and violence. BUT, where’s the hope? In one episode where part of the group is forced into a boxcar, they meet a man who says he knows the cause of the zombie outbreak, tells people it was somehow involved with the military and he knows how to stop it but he must get somewhere (I forgot) to get the cure/stop the outbreak.

As a professional writer and editor, with direct contact with a Hollywood script editor, and who is mentoring a young screenwriter, I seriously doubt that there will be ANY final resolution. The living characters will get worse. As in during Talking Dead when one of the show creators talked about one of the lead characters embracing the next level of killing and deciding he needs to do more of it. The show will end when they run out of new settings to do the same thing over and over - graphically kill zombies. It was heartwarming to hear about an episode where zombies are found in water and are now missing their skin. Great holiday material

And the spin-off show they have planned? Seriously? New faces, new places, same old, same old. Time to make the donuts… I mean, kill zombies. The show turns my stomach. It’s not what I want floating around in my head, but in order to criticize a TV show, you’ve got to watch enough of it to really see what the writers are up to.

As people slowly get tired of the new scenery, and characters they are fond of getting killed, rinse and repeat, the ratings will drop and drop and the show’s producers will pull the plug.

Ed

Whoa whoa whoa. A spin off series is in the works?? Are you serious?

Well that’s just depressing.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

All good points. You know, it seemed at first they were moving the plot along with Eugene’s storyline. I was hoping there really would have been a cure. That’s why I kept watching this season actually. But obviously that went nowhere.

The biggest problem with introducing Eugene into the show is that Rick already knows what caused it (remember season one?). The lab where the scientist tells Rick the secret of the zombie plague isn’t in the comic book so Eugene’s story wasn’t immediately seen as a lie. I haven’t watched any of season five yet, but the second Rick hears his story he would know it’s a lie; there wouldn’t be any need to wait around for Eugene to confess. Honestly, they need to introduce some sort of objective, otherwise it’s going to go downhill quickly if they just keep following the comic book’s formula.

 

[edwest2]

It’s called Cobalt.

imdb.com/title/tt3743822/

It’s a movie, but I’ve heard they’re hoping it will turn into a spin-off.

Ed

 

[Robyn_p]

The biggest problem with introducing Eugene into the show is that Rick already knows what caused it (remember season one?). The lab where the scientist tells Rick the secret of the zombie plague isn’t in the comic book so Eugene’s story wasn’t immediately seen as a lie. I haven’t watched any of season five yet, but the second Rick hears his story he would know it’s a lie; there wouldn’t be any need to wait around for Eugene to confess.

That’s what was weird to me, it was like Rick had amnesia about the whole CDC thing. He agreed to help Eugene go to Washington without asking any questions. Not sure if the writers forgot about season one, or if they expected the viewers to have forgotten, but that was a pretty big mistake on their part.