American Inquisition

[otm]

Cherub:

It is such a widespread problem now that I worry there is no way this can happen. It would require the formation of some sort of investigative committee – which would cost more than the national debt to implement, I imagine.
I believe that the second Vatican Council let a lot of trash into the Church, and now it is so deeply piled up that the subflooring needs replacing before anyone can stand securely again. In (just) my opinion, someone needs to come out and pronounce V2 invalid, and return us promptly to using the good old Baltimore Catechism for religious education.

It would appear that you have never sat down and actually read the documents of Vatican 2; if you had, you would not say what you do. Vatican 2 did not let the trash in; and returning to the Baltimore Catechism might be fine for someone who has not yet been confirmed - that is, a child - but faith never stopped at the BC. You might try reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The Church has many problems, but it is beyond even a simplistic answer to blame it on Vatican 2. Your comments suggest that you might not believe in the direction of the Holy Spirit, who guides the Church in such diliberations.

Implementation of some aspects of the documents of Vatican 2 have been spotty, but that is not the fault of the Council; it is the fault of the bishops and the priests (and not a few cardinals) who did, or did not, effectively implement the documents. You might also try to read some of the historical aspects of the Church over the last 100 years; you would see from that that Vatican 2 was not an abberation.

 

[Cherub]

otm:

It would appear that you have never sat down and actually read the documents of Vatican 2; if you had, you would not say what you do. Vatican 2 did not let the trash in; and returning to the Baltimore Catechism might be fine for someone who has not yet been confirmed - that is, a child - but faith never stopped at the BC. You might try reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The Church has many problems, but it is beyond even a simplistic answer to blame it on Vatican 2. Your comments suggest that you might not believe in the direction of the Holy Spirit, who guides the Church in such diliberations.

Implementation of some aspects of the documents of Vatican 2 have been spotty, but that is not the fault of the Council; it is the fault of the bishops and the priests (and not a few cardinals) who did, or did not, effectively implement the documents. You might also try to read some of the historical aspects of the Church over the last 100 years; you would see from that that Vatican 2 was not an abberation.

This is not the right impression you should have of me. Here is what I said about Vatican II (to clarify my point to another poster earlier):
I agree that Vatican II did not specifically invite the foul wind of progressiveness that entered the Church immediately after it – but it is at least the cause and the enabler. It is the most errantly referred-to council that ever convened on the face of the earth. Ask any radically “innovative” liturgist, priest, or layman why this or that illicit thing has been brought into practice at his parish, and the answer you will get is “Oh, well, Vatican II of course. Since the time of Vatican II, we don’t need a crucifix anymore in the sanctuary. Vatican II told us our focus is supposed to be on the resurrection…” etc… (I could list an entire page of examples of this that believe it or not are far worse.)
Something about that council has thrown wide the gates for all manner of sacrilege and profanation to enter the Church under the guise of adherence to Vatican II. It no longer matters if any of it was actually called for: it has happened. And I just can’t help thinking that something that has encouraged this much chaos to erupt must not be good. Know it by its fruit.

Yes, I have read the actual documents of the council. No, they do not suggest the atrocities that have been committed in its name. My point is that Vatican II has become the most quoted reason of all time for heresy.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Cherub:

Yes, I have read the actual documents of the council. No, they do not suggest the atrocities that have been committed in its name. My point is that Vatican II has become the most quoted reason of all time for heresy.

Which is why I feel it is time for an Inquisition, to find out who is trying to reshape the Church, using things like V2 as a cover for their more nefarious agenda. I am not suggesting a persecution, but rather an organized way of calling for accountability to the Magisterium.

 

[Dj_Roy_Albert]

Scott_Lafrance:

Am I the only one who sort of hope that the Church institutes an Inquisition (in its proper usage) here in America to flush out and eliminate the radical, dissenting elements of American Catholicism that are killing the Church here? I know alot of people think Inquisition and automatically think of a human barbeque, but I simply mean an inquiry into people who are ordained to maintain and teach the Catholic truth, but are abusing their pastoral and ministerial mandate by corrupting doctrine with dissenting views, and then disciplining or removing those who prove to be incorrigible?

I know of entire parishes that need to be shut down & the “faithful” repremanded for their wickedness.

Vatican III, Inqusition, or Crusade (non-life threatening of course), we need to drive satan out of The Church NOW!

 

[Ghosty]

I’m actually highly in favor of some kind of Inquisitional action. First we’d need an affirmation from above, from Ratzinger’s office, and a network set up to properly investigate abuses. Then the task should be given to the lay people to do the sniffing around and reporting. Once a potential abuse is reported, it would be investigated by properly trained individuals and they would see if an abuse really exists, and if a formal proceeding is necessary. If the case is found to merit intervention, a tribunal would be established, preferably hand-picked by the Inquisitional Office, and a trial would be held, witnesses would be called, and a defense would be allowed to be made. The findings of the tribunal would be handed back up to the head of the Office for stamping and official ruling.

The only downside I can see to this is the cost. Given the choice between an Inquisition, and keeping our hospitals running, I’d have to put myself on the side of the hospitals. If it could be made cost-effective, however, it would be wonderful. At least we can dream

 

[roymckenzie]

Stevereeno:

For all of the "slash and burn"ers.

ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ375.HTM

Interesting, I am always leery when someone does not believe enough in that they have written to affix their name to the document. I do however find many of the arguments compelling. I think one of the shining moments in the Catholic Church was when she stood up to the king of England. Apparently to her, the Catholic Church, truth is more important than numbers. I do however understand that those numbers represent souls that have been lost but the king of England is responsible for stealing those souls not the church for losing them.

 

[roymckenzie]

Ghosty:

I’m actually highly in favor of some kind of Inquisitional action. First we’d need an affirmation from above, from Ratzinger’s office, and a network set up to properly investigate abuses. Then the task should be given to the lay people to do the sniffing around and reporting. Once a potential abuse is reported, it would be investigated by properly trained individuals and they would see if an abuse really exists, and if a formal proceeding is necessary. If the case is found to merit intervention, a tribunal would be established, preferably hand-picked by the Inquisitional Office, and a trial would be held, witnesses would be called, and a defense would be allowed to be made. The findings of the tribunal would be handed back up to the head of the Office for stamping and official ruling.

The only downside I can see to this is the cost. Given the choice between an Inquisition, and keeping our hospitals running, I’d have to put myself on the side of the hospitals. If it could be made cost-effective, however, it would be wonderful. At least we can dream

My friend I understand your desire for social justice, but I do believe that eternal life in heaven is more important than a couple more weeks on earth. Here in the United States no one has to go without treatment in a hospital but there are souls going to hell due to errant teaching.

 

[puzzleannie]

same answer as the other post, we already know who the offenders are, the question is what are you going to do about it. the Inquisition was established by the Church to establish the facts on whether or not a person accused of heresy was in fact a heretic. This is because the civil authority, the king, emperor or feudal lord, had the power to punish and execute (never the Church) and the accusation of heresy had become a political weapon. The Inquisition was set up to prevent unjust persecution. Since the Church has no authority for punishment, other than excommunication, what do you recommend?

those who have committed sacrilege are already automatically excommunicated, which they ignore. repeat, what is the remedy?

 

[clmowry]

roymckenzie:

Interesting, I am always leery when someone does not believe enough in that they have written to affix their name to the document.

You mean Dave Armstrong?

Chuck

 

[Ani_Ibi]

roymckenzie:

An Inquisition is exactly what is called for here. I think the Inquisition should be limited to clergy and the Bishops.

I am for an Inquisition. Scandal against the Church is not permitted. Moreover ongoing, uncorrected, undisciplined scandal demoralizes the people of our Church. So the processes and ends of Inquisition should be public within the Church.

I do not think it should be limited to clergy and bishops. I think the main brunt of it should be against any Catholic who climbs on the heterodox pulpit of the media to preach scandal; that automatically targets heterodox clergy and religious, as well as politicians, journalists, and celebrities. But could include particularly raucous lay persons.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

puzzleannie:

those who have committed sacrilege are already automatically excommunicated, which they ignore. repeat, what is the remedy?

Public excommunication. That way, the offenders can no longer justify calling themselves Catholics and therefore misrepresenting the teachings of the Catholic Church. It is this misrepresentation which confuses and misleads the vulnerable.

 

[roymckenzie]

Ani Ibi:

Public excommunication. That way, the offenders can no longer justify calling themselves Catholics and therefore misrepresenting the teachings of the Catholic Church. It is this misrepresentation which confuses and misleads the vulnerable.

Ani we have disagreed on a number of issues before but on this one I could not be in greater agreement.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello Scott,

The Church already has anathema put in place to damn souls to eternal death for not believing in Church teaching. Would you rather have your soul sentenced to eternal damnation by a Pope or have your physical life sentenced to physical death by the Church or state? Obviously the Church already presently has in place a punishment infinitely more deadly than when Church inquisitioners burned heretics at the stake. Church leaders usually put the spiritually deadly sentence of anathema after most encyclicals to enforce the encyclical.

The problem is not insufficient deadly Church fire power backing up Church teaching. The problem is modern Church leaders refusing to warn people of anathema for worldly image reasons.

Please visit Throwing Stones

Anathema

In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: “Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.” …

"He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.

Quoted from newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm

Peace in Christ,

Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[Corinthians]

Scott_Lafrance:

Am I the only one who sort of hope that the Church institutes an Inquisition (in its proper usage) here in America to flush out and eliminate the radical, dissenting elements of American Catholicism that are killing the Church here? I know alot of people think Inquisition and automatically think of a human barbeque, but I simply mean an inquiry into people who are ordained to maintain and teach the Catholic truth, but are abusing their pastoral and ministerial mandate by corrupting doctrine with dissenting views, and then disciplining or removing those who prove to be incorrigible?

I like the idea. What better way to bring the love of Christ into the 21st century but with an Inquisition?

 

[Cherub]

Corinthians:

I like the idea. What better way to bring the love of Christ into the 21st century but with an Inquisition?

What better way to ignore and offend Christ and his love than to sit quietly while thousands of his beloved sheep are led by careless shepherds over the cliffs of heresy.

 

[Isidore_AK]

Ani Ibi:

Public excommunication. That way, the offenders can no longer justify calling themselves Catholics and therefore misrepresenting the teachings of the Catholic Church. It is this misrepresentation which confuses and misleads the vulnerable.

As to punishment…publicaly rebuke those that teach error. Defrock any priests that refuse to repent. Watch those that are rebuked to make sure they do not teach any more error.

Oooooh Idea! We can have ‘secret shoppers’! Those of you in retail sales know of what I speak…don’t know if its licit or not though. Have people go to confession to weed out those pastors who are saying things like missing mass or ‘personal sins’ are not mortal sins. Find the pastors who are misleading their flocks about abortion & homosexuality…they are probably more likely to show their true colors in the confessional.

If a parish is really really bad…close it down (St. Joan of Arc, of St Paul MN…). It would be very nice to get rid of some of the protestant style Catholic churches (y’know, the ‘spaceship’ churches…). If the building is sound, replace the pastor (if possible), any deacons and all the staff.

As to heterodox parishoners who refuse to repent…make a list. Publish it in the local Catholic paper. Let them know that they are excommunicated and what it really means (that they are welcome to attend, but not participate in mass until they repent).

Just some thoughts…

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Corinthians:

I like the idea. What better way to bring the love of Christ into the 21st century but with an Inquisition?

I agree, here is some Scriptural backup
Proverbs 12:1:

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

Proverbs 13:24:

He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.

Proverbs 19:18:

Discipline your son while there is hope; do not set your heart on his destruction.

Jeremiah 7:28:

And you shall say to them, 'This is the nation that did not obey the voice of the LORD their God, and did not accept discipline; truth has perished; it is cut off from their lips.

Hebrews 12:5:

And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons? --"My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

 

[Stevereeno]

“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men–robbers, evildoers, adulterers–or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God…”

 

[Stevereeno]

“As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?” But Jesus turned and rebuked them, and they went to another village.”

 

[Corinthians]

Isidore_AK:

As to punishment…publicaly rebuke those that teach error. Defrock any priests that refuse to repent. Watch those that are rebuked to make sure they do not teach any more error.

Oooooh Idea! We can have ‘secret shoppers’! Those of you in retail sales know of what I speak…don’t know if its licit or not though. Have people go to confession to weed out those pastors who are saying things like missing mass or ‘personal sins’ are not mortal sins. Find the pastors who are misleading their flocks about abortion & homosexuality…they are probably more likely to show their true colors in the confessional.

If a parish is really really bad…close it down (St. Joan of Arc, of St Paul MN…). It would be very nice to get rid of some of the protestant style Catholic churches (y’know, the ‘spaceship’ churches…). If the building is sound, replace the pastor (if possible), any deacons and all the staff.

As to heterodox parishoners who refuse to repent…make a list. Publish it in the local Catholic paper. Let them know that they are excommunicated and what it really means (that they are welcome to attend, but not participate in mass until they repent).

Just some thoughts…

Hey—you stole my thoughts!

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=48061