American Life League: We Insist Bishops Must Deny Pro-Abortion Politicians Communion

[childofmary1143]

American Life League: We Insist Bishops Must Deny Pro-Abortion Politicians Communion, Here’s Why

lifesite.net/ldn/2007/mar/07030207.html

Hooray for Judi Brown for calling it the way it is:thumbsup:

 

[Ham1]

American Life League: We Insist Bishops Must Deny Pro-Abortion Politicians Communion, Here’s Why

lifesite.net/ldn/2007/mar/07030207.html

Hooray for Judi Brown for calling it the way it is:thumbsup:

It is totally inappropriate for Judie Brown or anyone else to “call the Bishop’s to the carpet” publically. To use public opinion as push against the Church is offensive and un-Catholic. It does real harm to the Body of Christ to play this in the court of public opinion. This is not a political campaign and should not be treated as such. Don’t get me wrong I think all of the Bishop’s should refuse Communion to such politicians, but I do think that this is not the right way to address the situation with the Bishop’s. The appropriate action would be to write personal letters and meet with the Bishop’s privately to explain her position.

 

[childofmary1143]

It is totally inappropriate for Judie Brown or anyone else to “call the Bishop’s to the carpet” publically. To use public opinion as push against the Church is offensive and un-Catholic. It does real harm to the Body of Christ to play this in the court of public opinion. This is not a political campaign and should not be treated as such. Don’t get me wrong I think all of the Bishop’s should refuse Communion to such politicians, but I do think that this is not the right way to address the situation with the Bishop’s. The appropriate action would be to write personal letters and meet with the Bishop’s privately to explain her position.

Well Ham I can certainly see your point of view and it reminds me of a saying that my Dad told me many times,

People make decisions based upon the knowledge that they have. If they don’t have all the facts, they can’t make the proper decision.

For all we know Judi Brown could have already met with Bishop’s privately (assuming that they would make time in their busy schedule to meet her) and they did nothing.

It is inappropriate for it to get to this level but perhaps that is because the Bishops have refused to do anything about it.

 

[Ham1]

Well Ham I can certainly see your point of view and it reminds me of a saying that my Dad told me many times,

People make decisions based upon the knowledge that they have. If they don’t have all the facts, they can’t make the proper decision.

For all we know Judi Brown could have already met with Bishop’s privately (assuming that they would make time in their busy schedule to meet her) and they did nothing.

It is inappropriate for it to get to this level but perhaps that is because the Bishops have refused to do anything about it.

Doesn’t matter. If the Bishop’s didn’t make a move after meetings (which I doubt happened), the proper response is NEVER to attack the Bishop’s publically. The thing to do is pray and trust in the Holy Spirit to guide his Church. This is NOT a political matter even though it involves politicians. We should never treat the Church like a political party.

 

[childofmary1143]

Doesn’t matter. If the Bishop’s didn’t make a move after meetings (which I doubt happened), the proper response is NEVER to attack the Bishop’s publically. The thing to do is pray and trust in the Holy Spirit to guide his Church. This is NOT a political matter even though it involves politicians. We should never treat the Church like a political party.

Since when is reminding our shepherds to uphold what they SWORE to defend attacking them?

Its not the child’s place to tell the parents what to do but if parents aren’t feeding their kids and the kids have to ask them to be fed do we criticize the child?

This argument of authority is exactly why we have the problems in the church we do and what our Lord himself condemned in the Bible when he mentioned about “lording it over the others”.

 

[Ham1]

Since when is reminding our shepherds to uphold what they SWORE to defend attacking them?

Its not the child’s place to tell the parents what to do but if parents aren’t feeding their kids and the kids have to ask them to be fed do we criticize the child?

This argument of authority is exactly why we have the problems in the church we do and what our Lord himself condemned in the Bible when he mentioned about “lording it over the others”.

Absolutely you can remind them. It is our duty, even. But fraternal correction does not occur on websites or in national newspapers. Yes, we correct and encourage but all PRIVATELY to our families, friends and even our bishops. You would never correct your natural father in a newspaper, why would you correct your spiritual father in such a way? Is it to shame them into doing what is right? That is certainly not the idea of Christian fraternal correction.

Judie Brown is way out of bounds on this one and is hurting the Church. Such actions undermine the Church as a whole. Those outside the Church look at such a thing and say, “how can they have the truth when they have in-fighting like any other religion.” It attacks the unity of the Church.

 

[childofmary1143]

Absolutely you can remind them. It is our duty, even. But fraternal correction does not occur on websites or in national newspapers. Yes, we correct and encourage but all PRIVATELY to our families, friends and even our bishops. You would never correct your natural father in a newspaper, why would you correct your spiritual father in such a way? Is it to shame them into doing what is right? That is certainly not the idea of Christian fraternal correction.

Judie Brown is way out of bounds on this one and is hurting the Church. Such actions undermine the Church as a whole. Those outside the Church look at such a thing and say, “how can they have the truth when they have in-fighting like any other religion.” It attacks the unity of the Church.

Well sometimes private doesn’t always work. I mean St. Paul publicly rebuked Pope Peter and I don’t hear anybody criticizing him for that. If the Bishops would fight abortion the way that they SHOULD be doing then Judie wouldn’t have to do this.

 

[Ham1]

Well sometimes private doesn’t always work. I mean St. Paul publicly rebuked Pope Peter and I don’t hear anybody criticizing him for that. If the Bishops would fight abortion the way that they SHOULD be doing then Judie wouldn’t have to do this.

There is no public fraternal correction. Judie is totally out of line. Public criticism of the Church undermines the Church’s position of authority. Her behavior is inappropriate.

 

[hasikelee]

Absolutely you can remind them. It is our duty, even. But fraternal correction does not occur on websites or in national newspapers. Yes, we correct and encourage but all PRIVATELY to our families, friends and even our bishops. You would never correct your natural father in a newspaper, why would you correct your spiritual father in such a way? Is it to shame them into doing what is right? That is certainly not the idea of Christian fraternal correction.

Judie Brown is way out of bounds on this one and is hurting the Church. Such actions undermine the Church as a whole. Those outside the Church look at such a thing and say, “how can they have the truth when they have in-fighting like any other religion.” It attacks the unity of the Church.

I agree with this. Heck, if I publicly corrected my associate for chattering on her phone at work I could get fired for it. I can’t imagine taking this type of scorn to the level presented here.

ALL is my favourite pro-life group and I like Judie Brown, but this tastes a lot like an association I know…holier than the Pope.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

However, one notes with sorrow that a couple of newspaper headlines on the molestation scandals got a lot more action from the bishops than many years of quiet complaints.

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

Judie Brown is way out of bounds on this one and is hurting the Church. Such actions undermine the Church as a whole.

please, our society is sick and we have had for the most part incompetent blind bishops in our church leading the blind. it is our duty to admonish the sinner–a spiritual work of mercy–publically when necessary. since when does God want us to remain silient in the face of injustice??

the only thing that fixed the sex abuse scandal was the publicity of it. the bishops were more worried about their careers than their duty to lay their life down for the flock.

 

[Ham1]

please, our society is sick and we have had for the most part incompetent blind bishops in our church leading the blind. it is our duty to admonish the sinner–a spiritual work of mercy–publically when necessary. since when does God want us to remain silient in the face of injustice??

the only thing that fixed the sex abuse scandal was the publicity of it. the bishops were more worried about their careers than their duty to lay their life down for the flock.

Please provide a source for the bolded part. Firstly, how are the bishop’s committing sin? Secondly, where does the Church teach of “public” correction?

 

[fix]

I do not know it is simply a matter of fraternal correction. I would like to see a canon lawyer give some info to support or refute Judi Brown’s means of “correcting” the bishops.

I have read things like this:

Canon 212:
They have the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence and position, to manifest to the sacred Pastors their views on matters which concern the good of the Church. They have the right also to make their views known to others of Christ’s faithful, but in doing so they must always respect the integrity of faith and morals, show due reverence to the Pastors and take into account both the common good and the dignity of individuals.

 

[Ham1]

I do not know it is simply a matter of fraternal correction. I would like to see a canon lawyer give some info to support or refute Judi Brown’s means of “correcting” the bishops.

I have read things like this:

Given canon 212, I would not call her actions appropriate. I don’t think ads in national newspapers or websites show “due reverence” and especially harm the common good.

To criticize the Church publically weakens the Church to all outsiders.

 

[fix]

Given canon 212, I would not call her actions appropriate. I don’t think ads in national newspapers or websites show “due reverence” and especially harm the common good.

To criticize the Church publically weakens the Church to all outsiders.

It seems to be a matter of prudential judgment. I assume she has sought counsel from canon lawyers before she writes the things she does.

I do see your point and I am ambivalent about this issue currently.

 

[Ham1]

It seems to be a matter of prudential judgment. I assume she has sought counsel from canon lawyers before she writes the things she does.

I do see your point and I am ambivalent about this issue currently.

I sincerely hope that you are correct about her seeking counsel. Given some of my personal experiences though, I would not assume that she has sought such counsel.

 

[chrisg93]

ham,

You are quite wrong in several ways. Public criticism of Bishops can be, and I think is in this case, appropriate.

Saints have critized Popes in the past. Archbish Fulton Sheen said it is the duty of the laity to insist that priests act like priests and Bishops act like Bishops. We are entitled to publicially critisise a Bishop if all other atempsts have failed and the matter is of grave importance leading to grave sin or scandal. In these cases it is a mortal NOT to admonish a Bishop privately and publicially.

Your concern with weakening the Church to outsiders is without merit.

 

[Orionthehunter]

It seems to be a matter of prudential judgment. I assume she has sought counsel from canon lawyers before she writes the things she does.

I do see your point and I am ambivalent about this issue currently.

Fix, you and I have had many discussions about conscience. While we had slight differences, we have always been in agreement that it is with regard to private acts and thoughts.

While I might disagree with a particular Bishop or group of Bishops, I would never dream of chastising them publicly on a matter that is definitely within their charism as a Bishop. I’m not ordained a Bishop and neither is she.

Judi Brown’s conduct is just as scandalous and inappropriate as the politicians she demands being denied communion. What is good for hte goose is good for the gander.

This is not a matter of fraternal correction. Fraternal correction is direct and personal. A broad-based “order” to who are not her subordinate but in fact her superior is shocking and not befitting of someone of her influence and position. We depend on her group to advocate for the unborn and not matters of the conduct of Shepherds and Pastors.

And Chrisg93, what she did was not publicly criticize but actually call for a particular action that is within the purview of a pastoral act and she is calling for it in a way as to make it punitive to the wayward.

 

[Ham1]

ham,

You are quite wrong in several ways. Public criticism of Bishops can be, and I think is in this case, appropriate.

Saints have critized Popes in the past. Archbish Fulton Sheen said it is the duty of the laity to insist that priests act like priests and Bishops act like Bishops. We are entitled to publicially critisise a Bishop if all other atempsts have failed and the matter is of grave importance leading to grave sin or scandal. In these cases it is a mortal NOT to admonish a Bishop privately and publicially.

Your concern with weakening the Church to outsiders is without merit.

Thanks but we disagree. I would not assume that she has addressed each Bishop individually on the subject. Further, there is nothing in Church teaching that says we ought to correct them “publically” - privately, yes.

When those outside see the Body of Christ as filled with political factions attempting to manipulate each other it makes the Church look like any other protestant church. It makes it look like we don’t possess the fullness of the Truth. This is a serious diservice to those who are seeking the Truth and have not yet found the Church.

 

[fix]

Fix, you and I have had many discussions about conscience. While we had slight differences, we have always been in agreement that it is with regard to private acts and thoughts.

While I might disagree with a particular Bishop or group of Bishops, I would never dream of chastising them publicly on a matter that is definitely within their charism as a Bishop. I’m not ordained a Bishop and neither is she.

Judi Brown’s conduct is just as scandalous and inappropriate as the politicians she demands being denied communion. What is good for hte goose is good for the gander.

This is not a matter of fraternal correction. Fraternal correction is direct and personal. A broad-based “order” to who are not her subordinate but in fact her superior is shocking and not befitting of someone of her influence and position. We depend on her group to advocate for the unborn and not matters of the conduct of Shepherds and Pastors.

And Chrisg93, what she did was not publicly criticize but actually call for a particular action that is within the purview of a pastoral act and she is calling for it in a way as to make it punitive to the wayward.

I read the link in the OP and I know she has a book out. Can you provide a link that shows exactly why you and Ham are concerned? I am not being pedantic, but I would like to see some examples that are seen as unjust?

And I very much want to see a canon lawyer give an opinion on all this.