American Life League: We Insist Bishops Must Deny Pro-Abortion Politicians Communion

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See my below comments. Are you really saying that a Catholic who publicly implies that Bishops hold eagle eggs in higher esteem than the Eucharist, are effectively intentionally allowing the desecration of the Eucharist, and are comparable to the leaders who turned Christ over to Pilate isn’t egregious?

Judi Brown, yourself and myself are not called to “insist” how our Bishops deal with this situation. Call my position what it you want. And you wonder why the Bishops and Pope don’t have the standing with the laity. Whether it be from the right or the left, criticism has a price.

Here are some words from her letter:

“Jesus was surely referring to the “chief priests” when he said to Pilate, “he who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.” (John 18:35; 19:11)” Wow, now Judi is a theologian. It looks like she is practicing what some of our non-Catholic Christians do to Scripture.

Then, look at her silly analogy of St. Tarsicus which she employs effectively but decietfully. The mob intended to desecrate the Eucharist. While they are likely in grave sin and are definitely (IMHO) committing grave matter, the intent of the politicians in question have no such intent. But Judi then tries to use this analogy to accuse the Bishops of effective intentional neglect to protect the Eucharist.

We might all believe the Bishops are in error but it is scandalous to accuse them of such intent, especially since she has no direct knowledge of their intent. This itself is an offense against the truth and a grave manner.

Finally, her analogy that the law holds a bald eagle to higher esteem than the Eucharist to imply that this is the same position of our Bishops is so dishonest and scandalous. Frankly, the closer I look at this the more offended I am.

I consider her attack, while cleverly concealed from being overt, is just that an attack on our Shepherds and objectively wrong.
I hate to repeat, but your argument is based on your interpretation. Where is a canonist when you need one?
The non-reception of Communion for anyone living outside the Church is to be self-denied by the individual. Why do we insist on our own personal pound of flesh and not just leave it to God? They have been properly informed.
Because canon law says so, Cardinal Ratzinger said so, and most importantly because it will help save souls and desecration of the Eucharist.
 
While you all go about your business of critiquing her position, it should be noted that in the last election cycle for President, this issue was fairly thoroughly vetted.

The net result is that there is still not a decision that I have heard which specifies exactly what the Bishop can, and more importantly, should do about politicians who are publicy touting their “Catholicity” and abortion. It seems to me that this culminated in a letter on the Eucharist, which did not please those who want politicians publicly excoriated.

It would appear that she has not found the satisfaction she desires in the Church’s response to the issue. It would seem further that she now sees fit to demand that the Church follow her interpretation of what they (the bishops) must do.

Just some random thoughts… but I am reminded of the old saw, Roma locutus est, causa finitus est.

As I understand it, the issue is to be handled pastorally, and she doesn’t agree with that means of handling it. It is always good to know that an individual out there knows more than the dicasteries resposnible for the issue, in how it should be handled.
 
From Setter: First, Judi Brown has eyes to see and ears to hear and enough intelligence to distiguish between what the Church teaches and what is scandalous behavior on the part of Catholic politicians.
I agree that what these politicians do is contrary to what the Church expects of those in influence and teaches for the flock. I just don’t presume to believe that I’m so confident in the solution that I can publicly admonish a Shepherd. Maybe I’m just excessively humble and I excessively react to a lack of humility.
Second and third, how can you claim that Judi Brown has no trained competence? By your standard, only those holding official positions of authority in the Church can make public statements and assertions regarding the faith and those who are contributing to public scandal (laity and religious the same).
She is not trained to be a Pastor nor empowered to be a Pastor/Shepherd by the Church nor is it her primary vocation to train Pastors. As is said by OTJM, as of now, the decision is to handle this pastorally and not subject them to public excommunication. Just like other matters of discipline, when Rome or legitimate local authorities (i.e. USCCB) choose other actions, I’ll accept them.
From Setter: Not to be rude, but do you always first seek leadership permission and official channels before defending the faith and faithful against persistent heresy and scandal?
She is not defending the faith. The Church is clear. It teaches that people who hold these positions are outside full communion. This is what the faith teaches. She is going beyond defending. She is going beyond suggesting that more should be done.
If she had made a general statement to the effect that what they do and say is scandalous and requires more forceful action, I could accept that as legitimate lay expression. But she goes much farther in with an admonishment of hte Bishops by questioning their integrity and fidelity to the Eucharist.
From Setter: In your opinion.
Yes, I have reached the opinion that she is admonishing publicly Bishops which is outside the bounds of “instruction and advice” described in the Catechism for fraternal correction. Maybe you think her implication that Bishops hold eagle eggs to greater esteem than the Eucharist or that they are intentionally participating in the desecration of the Eucharist (despite no direct knowledge of their intent- I urge you to read the section of the Catechism on Offenses against the Truth) is appropriate for “fraternal correction.” I find it an objective Offense against the Truth a grave matter.
From Setter: I cannot find any violation of this on her part. You may just have to accept that your interpretation and opinion differs from the opinion of other faithful Catholics without necessarily indicting and convicting Judi Brown (and other **courageous outspoken **Catholics) of improper and disrespectful behavior.
Are you asserting that those who disagree with her profusely citing the Catechism and Canon Law are neither faithful, courageous or outspoken?
 
Often, because one has a zealous and sterling reputation on the side of life, some may equate that zeal and reputation with wisdom.

This communication was not, on its face, a wise act. While the nuances of canon law and the catechism are open for interpretation, this is at best a zealous maneuver, not a wise one. Simply stated, how does chastising the bishops promote the cause of life?

Judie Brown should know better. In my view, her zeal exceeded her wisdom. By far.

Consider this. If the Archbishop of Washington, standing on the steps of the Capital, were to read the formal interdict and writ of excommunication of all those subject to him, with the Papal Nuncio at his side, how many abortions would occur that day and the days following?

The exact same number. That’s how many.

Withholding of communion, excommunications, etc. are red herring distractions for the legal and social work at hand. Sure, I would love to see it, but abortion is not a 34-year-old issue, it is a 1000+ year old issue and the bishops have been inactive on this subject from the beginning.

Abortion was legal for the entire tenure of Archbishop Sheen and Cardinal Cook (both of NY State); to name two whose cause for canonization has been opened. To my knowledge, they never withheld communion on this issue. And they sure could have. They preached up a storm against abortion but I never heard of them withholding Holy Communion. Therefore, the onus to demonstrate that such an act is prudent and wise is up to those who promote it.

If one were truly concerned for souls, they would have a Mass celebrated for them, pray and fast for them as surely the “road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops”. Press releases and ad campaigns do not seem to be an effective method of conversion. Although participating in them make one feel good.
 
American Life League: We Insist Bishops Must Deny Pro-Abortion Politicians Communion, Here’s Why
Do you know I truthfully would not expect to hear anything any different

What a sad sorry state we are in 😛

May God have mercy on the poor soul of a bishop foolish enough to set himself up as judge, jury and judgment without mercyMat 7: 1-3 😛
 
While you all go about your business of critiquing her position, it should be noted that in the last election cycle for President, this issue was fairly thoroughly vetted.

The net result is that there is still not a decision that I have heard which specifies exactly what the Bishop can, and more importantly, should do about politicians who are publicy touting their “Catholicity” and abortion. It seems to me that this culminated in a letter on the Eucharist, which did not please those who want politicians publicly excoriated.

It would appear that she has not found the satisfaction she desires in the Church’s response to the issue. It would seem further that she now sees fit to demand that the Church follow her interpretation of what they (the bishops) must do.

Just some random thoughts… but I am reminded of the old saw, Roma locutus est, causa finitus est.

As I understand it, the issue is to be handled pastorally, and she doesn’t agree with that means of handling it. It is always good to know that an individual out there knows more than the dicasteries resposnible for the issue, in how it should be handled.
I am confused by your post. You claim Rome has spoken and the case is closed? Has Rome said what must be done in each case?

Also, you says folks want people excoriated? How do you arrive at that conclusion?

And, is every pastoral decision a good one? Can good Catholics disagree with such decisions?
 
Consider this. If the Archbishop of Washington, standing on the steps of the Capital, were to read the formal interdict and writ of excommunication of all those subject to him, with the Papal Nuncio at his side, how many abortions would occur that day and the days following?
It does not have to be simply that one act and all is solved. It would be a good source of clarification and edification for all involved. It would be one small step in correcting the laxity that has been allowed to occur all these decades.
Withholding of communion, excommunications, etc. are red herring distractions for the legal and social work at hand. Sure, I would love to see it, but abortion is not a 34-year-old issue, it is a 1000+ year old issue and the bishops have been inactive on this subject from the beginning.
Why would you love to see it if it is a distraction?
Abortion was legal for the entire tenure of Archbishop Sheen and Cardinal Cook (both of NY State); to name two whose cause for canonization has been opened. To my knowledge, they never withheld communion on this issue. And they sure could have. They preached up a storm against abortion but I never heard of them withholding Holy Communion. Therefore, the onus to demonstrate that such an act is prudent and wise is up to those who promote it.
Things have gotten increasingly worse. Perhaps if they were alive they would be like the few strong bishops who have stood out on this matter.
If one were truly concerned for souls, they would have a Mass celebrated for them, pray and fast for them as surely the “road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops”. Press releases and ad campaigns do not seem to be an effective method of conversion. Although participating in them make one feel good.
Again, it is not as if doing these things were all that was in motion. They are one part of the solution. The constant refrain of doing nothing in terms of public correction seems to have gotten us where we are today and yes it is much worse today.
 
May God have mercy on the poor soul of a bishop foolish enough to set himself up as judge, jury and judgment without mercyMat 7: 1-3 😛
You must have strong feelings about this then:
In this regard, it seems to me that there has been a general failure in the church to teach effectively the truth about the holy Eucharist and what is required to approach the sacrament worthily. I have frequently had the impression that some Catholics today believe that mere presence at Mass means that one may receive Communion. Reception of Communion can become a kind of social action of those present at Mass. In such a climate, to state that anyone is excluded from Communion is seen as the imposition of a harsh sanction, when, in fact, it is merely the recognition that one is involved in objectively grave sin.
 
I am confused by your post. You claim Rome has spoken and the case is closed? Has Rome said what must be done in each case?

Also, you says folks want people excoriated? How do you arrive at that conclusion?

And, is every pastoral decision a good one? Can good Catholics disagree with such decisions?
Rome has made the point of not saying what must be done in each case; in fact, Rome did a pretty good job of not saying that there should be any carte blanche denial of Communion.

How I arrive at the conclusion? She is pushing for public denial of Communion. That is excoriating them. Addressing it individually with the specific politician, and privately with their pastor or other priests who are likely to be confronted with the issue seems to be the approach that Rome wants, and that most definitely doesn’t suit those who are publicly attempting to force the bishops’ hand in the matter.

Can Catholics disagree with pastoral dicisions? Let me put it this way: generally most people don’t know the sum total of the decision, the facts of the case and the applicable laws sufficiently to make an informed decision. If they know all of that (and I fail to see how, in most circumstances if something is being handled privately that they would have even the beginning of that information), then it is possible they may. But we seem to be approaching a point where there are any number of self-anointed “experts” who seem to know better in almost any given situation than those who are actually involved in that situation.

Does that mean I am against all disagreement with decisions? No, certainly not. But I am constantly amazed that so many people who know so little have so much to say. Particularly when they attempt to manipulate it through a public backlash as she is attempting to do.

Some people have a view of the Church that is an authoritarian model. That is not the model Christ gave us, nor is it the one that the majority of bishops, and Rome, follows. There have been a few issues, for example, that in time have lead to an excommunication. Many seem to think that excommunication is the route that all bishops should be taking and wonder why it is that so few do.

What those people don’t understand is that throughout the history of the Church, and most certainly now, excommunication is rarely used, and is a long process. They seem to want an episcopal leadership that issues anathemas and excommunications with abandon at the first sign of any difference with Church rules and regulations. That simply is not the way it happens, and most certainly is not the Gospel model.

I think she has gone to a political model being used frequently by special interest groups to bring pressure to bear on legislators. I don’t think that is how the Church works; I don’t believe it will be successful; I think she has made a tactical decision that is going to backfire on her, that there are many other ways to handle this issue, and she has not and will not help the pro life community with this choice.

And I think a whole lot of Cathiolics might be better off following the Gospel mandates of prayer and taking care of the poor (and I don’t mean that as simply an economic issue) than trying to second guess every decision the bishops make, most particularly when they don’t even know what is actually going on.

This reminds me of people who criticize judges for the decisons rendered in cases when a) their knowledge of the case is so minimal as to be almost non-existent, and b) their knowledge of law and its complexities could be put into a thimble and leave room for a fat finger. Opinions and halitosis seem to share a lot of characteristics; everybody has them and they both stink.
 
See the thing is the **VATICAN HAS SPOKEN ** about DENYING communion to Pro abortion politicians.

lifesite.net/ldn/2004/apr/04042301.html

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_present-redemptionis_en.html

When pressed on such “unambigiously pro-abortion” Catholic politicians, Arinze said such a politician “is not fit” to receive communion. “If they should not receive, then they should not be given,” he said.

What were you saying about Judie Brown again??
 
Rome has made the point of not saying what must be done in each case; in fact, Rome did a pretty good job of not saying that there should be any carte blanche denial of Communion.
Cardinal Ratzinger seems to disagree with your view.
How I arrive at the conclusion? She is pushing for public denial of Communion. That is excoriating them.
That is a untrue and a false charge.

Please see this:
In other words, for the Catholic politician to receive Communion when he or she has publicly violated the moral law in a grave matter like procured abortion risks leading others into thinking that they can accept procured abortion with a right conscience. In such a case, if the Catholic politician does not recognize the lack of the proper disposition to receive Communion, then the church herself must refuse the sacrament, in order to safeguard the worthy reception of the sacrament and to prevent a serious scandal among the faithful.
catholiceducation.org/articles/politics/pg0116.html
Addressing it individually with the specific politician, and privately with their pastor or other priests who are likely to be confronted with the issue seems to be the approach that Rome wants, and that most definitely doesn’t suit those who are publicly attempting to force the bishops’ hand in the matter.
No one says they should not meet privately. When those attempts fail?
Can Catholics disagree with pastoral dicisions? Let me put it this way: generally most people don’t know the sum total of the decision, the facts of the case and the applicable laws sufficiently to make an informed decision.
Right, that is why to say nothing publicly and allow misinterpetations is a scandal.
If they know all of that (and I fail to see how, in most circumstances if something is being handled privately that they would have even the beginning of that information), then it is possible they may. But we seem to be approaching a point where there are any number of self-anointed “experts” who seem to know better in almost any given situation than those who are actually involved in that situation.
How many decades need to pass before the obvious is known?
Does that mean I am against all disagreement with decisions? No, certainly not. But I am constantly amazed that so many people who know so little have so much to say. Particularly when they attempt to manipulate it through a public backlash as she is attempting to do.
So, your opinion is better than hers?
Some people have a view of the Church that is an authoritarian model. That is not the model Christ gave us, nor is it the one that the majority of bishops, and Rome, follows. There have been a few issues, for example, that in time have lead to an excommunication. Many seem to think that excommunication is the route that all bishops should be taking and wonder why it is that so few do.
So, your understanding is greater than hers?
What those people don’t understand is that throughout the history of the Church, and most certainly now, excommunication is rarely used, and is a long process. They seem to want an episcopal leadership that issues anathemas and excommunications with abandon at the first sign of any difference with Church rules and regulations. That simply is not the way it happens, and most certainly is not the Gospel model.
You are an expert, but others are not?
I think she has gone to a political model being used frequently by special interest groups to bring pressure to bear on legislators. I don’t think that is how the Church works; I don’t believe it will be successful; I think she has made a tactical decision that is going to backfire on her, that there are many other ways to handle this issue, and she has not and will not help the pro life community with this choice.
She may be making a mistake, but frankly that too is a prudential judgment. You are entitled to an opinion as she is.
And I think a whole lot of Cathiolics might be better off following the Gospel mandates of prayer and taking care of the poor (and I don’t mean that as simply an economic issue) than trying to second guess every decision the bishops make, most particularly when they don’t even know what is actually going on.
Overreaching. As for prayer and taking care of the poor I would be careful to throw around charges like that. It sounds a bit pompous and perhaps you are guilty of what you charge others with?
This reminds me of people who criticize judges for the decisons rendered in cases when a) their knowledge of the case is so minimal as to be almost non-existent, and b) their knowledge of law and its complexities could be put into a thimble and leave room for a fat finger. Opinions and halitosis seem to share a lot of characteristics; everybody has them and they both stink.
Simple minded people. They ought to keep quiet. I see your position clearly now.
 
See the thing is the **VATICAN HAS SPOKEN ** about DENYING communion to Pro abortion politicians.

lifesite.net/ldn/2004/apr/04042301.html

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_present-redemptionis_en.html

When pressed on such “unambigiously pro-abortion” Catholic politicians, Arinze said such a politician “is not fit” to receive communion. “If they should not receive, then they should not be given,” he said.

What were you saying about Judie Brown again??
Can you distinguish between a Cardinal giving his personal opinion on the matter, and Rome providing a document as to how the issue is going to be handled?

This is what aggravates me about people’s response to complex issues. They take a personal comment as a specific policy directive to cover all situations. It is not’ it is simply a general response to a general question; it did not and was not meant to cover all situations, nor was it an elucidation on how the issue was to be handled from start to finish.

What I was saying about Judy Brown still applies. It also applies to those who are unfamiliar with Canon Law and the process by which it is applied.
 
Can you distinguish between a Cardinal giving his personal opinion on the matter, and Rome providing a document as to how the issue is going to be handled?

This is what aggravates me about people’s response to complex issues. They take a personal comment as a specific policy directive to cover all situations. It is not’ it is simply a general response to a general question; it did not and was not meant to cover all situations, nor was it an elucidation on how the issue was to be handled from start to finish.

What I was saying about Judy Brown still applies. It also applies to those who are unfamiliar with Canon Law and the process by which it is applied.
Since we are on the topic of aggravation what aggravates me is people who spin what a Cardinal of the Church say as “personal opinion”. Where does it say that it is his “personal opinion”? It doesn’t.

You say Judie isn’t qualified to speak on Church matters but what are your credentials to say the following It is not’ it is simply a general response to a general question; it did not and was not meant to cover all situations, nor was it an elucidation on how the issue was to be handled from start to finish.
 
Since we are on the topic of aggravation what aggravates me is people who spin what a Cardinal of the Church say as “personal opinion”. Where does it say that it is his “personal opinion”? It doesn’t.

You say Judie isn’t qualified to speak on Church matters but what are your credentials to say the following It is not’ it is simply a general response to a general question; it did not and was not meant to cover all situations, nor was it an elucidation on how the issue was to be handled from start to finish.
It most certainly was his personal opinion. You need to distinguish between what a Cardinal says in an interview with a reporter, and what a dicastery says with an official document. Rome has not started legislating through the newspaper, and I seriously doubt it will in the future. There is a mechanism already in place to address how Canon Law will be applied. Rome did that with its response on the Eucharist, a document that many hoped would specifically address the issue of denying Communion to politicians who support abortion. Rome’s answer left it to the prudential judgement of the individual bishop. Many people are unhappy with that as they want the response of several bishops during the last presidential election to be the modus operandi. Rome did not see fit to make that the standard. Niether did it say that the bishops who refused Communion to Kerry and others were wrong.

and by the way, a Cardinal doesn’t have to say that it is his personal opinion when he is responding to a press question; he is asked a short specific question about a complex matter (this is, after all, a Canon Law question and the proceedure is well set out) and he gives a short answer. The general rule is that a politician in such circumstances can be denied Communion; that is one of the censures possible. It is also the most drastic, and Canon Law does not automatically boot to the final most drastic alternative.
 
And just what do we expect to be the result if the Bishops would do what Judi demands? I can tell you that in this country the support for abortion and politicians who support it would skyrocket. Those lovely politicians would become the “underdogs” and Americans love underdogs. The Bishops understand quite well in my opinion what will get the result they want and what will in the short and probably long term be counter productive. There may be some Bishops who are dummies, but I think probably very few.
 
And just what do we expect to be the result if the Bishops would do what Judi demands? I can tell you that in this country the support for abortion and politicians who support it would skyrocket. Those lovely politicians would become the “underdogs” and Americans love underdogs. The Bishops understand quite well in my opinion what will get the result they want and what will in the short and probably long term be counter productive. There may be some Bishops who are dummies, but I think probably very few.
I see that you have the makings of a political strategist …let’s keep Church decisions regarding faith and morals and avoiding scandal out of the political realm, i.e., faithfulness trumps political expediency.
 
I see that you have the makings of a political strategist …let’s keep Church decisions regarding faith and morals and avoiding scandal out of the political realm, i.e., faithfulness trumps political expediency.
Wouldn’t you agree that Judie Brown is putting such decisions squarely in the political realm by her public campaign?
 
And just what do we expect to be the result if the Bishops would do what Judi demands? I can tell you that in this country the support for abortion and politicians who support it would skyrocket. Those lovely politicians would become the “underdogs” and Americans love underdogs. The Bishops understand quite well in my opinion what will get the result they want and what will in the short and probably long term be counter productive. There may be some Bishops who are dummies, but I think probably very few.
Yes, that strategy really seems to be working. Please see the results of the last election as proof.
 
Wouldn’t you agree that Judie Brown is putting such decisions squarely in the political realm by her public campaign?
No. By putting her grief in the public realm Judie Brown is meeting the bishops on turf of where the rubber of the gospel meets the road of faithful Chrisitian discipleship.

“Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops, not our priests and religious. It is up to you, the people. You have the minds, the eyes, and the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests act like priests, your bishops act like bishops, and your religious act like religious.” ~ Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, address to the Supreme Convention of the Knights of Columbus on 6/72.
 
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