American Republicans and Francis

[Ender]

I tend to more conservative than not and I didn’t have any issue with what the Pope said.

I don’t either … but I take great issue with what the translator and the media say he said.

I do find it curious, though, how hard the media is working to make the Pope’s statements political.

They are looking to create equivalence: “We ignore the church on abortion, you ignore it on economic issues; Catholics are as at home with us as with you.”

Liberals like to bring up things like the Pope’s comments about unfettered capitalism…

Let’s be clear: the pope said nothing about unfettered capitalism, nor was the term “trickle down” economics his. The latter was the translator’s term, and that wasn’t the only adjustment the translator made in this section of the document. What Francis actually said (in Spanish, in which the document was written) was that a free market by itself (a phrase the translator saw fit to eliminate) will not create equality and inclusion and, despite the breathless cries of liberals, conservatives actually do believe there is a place for government assistance. They disagree about its scale and scope, not about its existence.

The point of all this is that there is nothing in that Apostolic Exhortation which a conservative cannot readily endorse.

Ender

 

[ishii]

They are looking to create equivalence: “We ignore the church on abortion, you ignore it on economic issues; Catholics are as at home with us as with you.”

Let’s be clear: the pope said nothing about unfettered capitalism, nor was the term “trickle down” economics his. The latter was the translator’s term, and that wasn’t the only adjustment the translator made in this section of the document. What Francis actually said (in Spanish, in which the document was written) was that a free market by itself (a phrase the translator saw fit to eliminate) will not create equality and inclusion and, despite the breathless cries of liberals, conservatives actually do believe there is a place for government assistance. They disagree about its scale and scope, not about its existence.

The point of all this is that there is nothing in that Apostolic Exhortation which a conservative cannot readily endorse.

Ender

All good points, Ender. Quite unfortunate that some Catholics would twist or otherwise misinterpret the Pope’s words to use them in their own petty partisan arguments, and create a false equivalence between abortion and whatever imperfections may exist in the American economic system.

Ishii

 

[clem456]

I am curious as a Canadian how Catholics involved in the Republican Party and the Tea Party reconcile the American values around capitalism and the popes recent critisism of unfettered capitalism…

Trickster

Why did you not include Democrats in this question?
Are Democrats not in favor of Capitalism?

 

[Boatswain2PA]

As you see they rely on denial.

There were some very cogent responses posted here. If you can’t understand those responses then you should look to your own issues and biases.

The “denialists” are those who continue advocating for increased federal spending on social programs at the expense of the economy. This is good for the poor in the short term, but in the long term will (if not stopped) result in vast increases in true poverty.

 

[trickster]

What about that Irish priest that I mentioned, was he in denial as well?

He’s got no 'horse in the race" so to speak, but rather is a European who has spent a large portion of his life in the Pope’s homeland.

If the US is ‘unfettered’ Capitalism with it’s EPA and OSHA and corporate reporting requirements, what is the term that best describes the level of restrictions on corporations in the Latin American countries?

I think part of the popes arguement here (and I am not sure if I am correct) is that for the last 20-30 years, the middle class income in the US has remained "flat lined’ on those economic charts, whereas profits have increased for the top 1% of the richest of the rich by 30-40%. So perhaps a discussion on “unfettered capitalism” is a weaker discussion than a system that rewards the top 1% to the degree it does…and the idea of redistribution of wealth in a non-starter for a lot of Americans. In Canada, we are a bit more comfortable with government in our lives and with redistribution… but we are not open to abuse by government people to mismange the tax payer’s dollar either…now I am interested in learning whether the 1% in Canada have benefited like their American counterparts…just some thoughts…

Trickster

 

[trickster]

These threads always degenerate into a liberal versus conservative waste of time. As to the OP, I wait to see a government that has improved anything after asserting control over it.

As the OP, I am Canadian so I don’t have any investment in an American liberal or conservative argument, nor do I consider it my place to dabble in the internal American conversation. I am finding the discussions very informative and also indicative of how different our countries are…one poster referred to the DNA as a rejection of Crown and therefore big government…so that is a huge piece in understanding the psychology of American politics…and now that the pope has highlighted church teaching in regards to majority or monopolies (either socialism or extreme capitalism) American Catholics are in the process of reflecting and looking at the two world views (that I don’t think personally are necessarily conflicting…))…

Trickster

 

[trickster]

Corki, I’ve noticed that the American left - in the media - have taken the Pope’s words and twisted them to make them seem like he is endorsing leftism. And unfortunately, liberal catholics have wasted no time in participating in the twisting and gloating as if to say, “see, the Pope is a liberal just like us.” Then they complain that everything is politicized.

Ishii

I am liberal catholic, and I agree with you cause the operative word for you and me is “Catholic” and our interpretations and takes on teaching may be influenced from a change versus “stay the course” debate within our own catholic community, but we agree…this pope is simply speaking church teaching at a global level. He is talking about these issues with respect of please understand the conversation on same sex marriage, abortion, unfettered capitalism within the context of ALL of the church teaching not from a secular context of this neighbourhood, interest group or this nation (or whatever nation).

Intersting time isn’t it Ishii…

Trickster

 

[NoRockwell]

I wanted to ask some of you about this regarding my position.

I’m a Libertarian and a Catholic convert. I reviewed the encyclical and all of the critiques it received. I’ve heard that Pope Francis wasn’t really talking about Capitalism–that it was actually just about consumerism. I’ve heard that the Pope was indeed talking about Capitalism and is right that it needs regulation. I’ve heard that the Pope was indeed talking about Capitalism and is misguided on this.

I’ve heard all of these critiques from Catholics, both religious and secular.

I didn’t quite get a clear answer from my RCIA sponsor. If Pope Francis did indeed make a statement on economics that capitalism needs regulation from the state, then I’m not sure how I can agree with this.

I feel guilty about disagreeing with him on this as I feel it would make me a Cafeteria Catholic–I want to be a totally dedicated Catholic. But it’s not easy for me to divorce Austrian Economic principles when I’ve seen how it is a common-sense approach to economic growth than can further benefit those who are in great need of aid. It would feel like having to denounce my belief that 2 + 2 = 4. It’s not easy to do that when you can see how objective the answer is, whether I want it to be 4 or not.

Would disagreeing with the Pope on this economic statement make me a bad Catholic?

 

[livingwordunity]

I am curious as a Canadian how Catholics involved in the Republican Party and the Tea Party reconcile the American values around capitalism and the popes recent critisism of unfettered capitalism…

Trickster

Catholicism is only against “unfettered” capitalism. It’s like how “the love of money is the root of all evil”, not money itself.

 

[Brendan]

I think part of the popes arguement here (and I am not sure if I am correct) is that for the last 20-30 years, the middle class income in the US has remained "flat lined’ on those economic charts, whereas profits have increased for the top 1% of the richest of the rich by 30-40%. …

Trickster

I view the Pope’s comments in a much more global view, in that the industrialized nations have a substantial income disparity with the rest of the world.

Perhaps this view is influenced by my trips to Tanzania. I do volunteer work in one of the poorest diocese in Tanzania, which is not a rich country to begin with. The average family income in that area is about $500 per year.

Health care in the villages generally means the first aid kit that the local priest has.

So when I read Evangelli Gaudium, the sections on income disparity are not national in scope, but global. How do we improve the lives of those who are desperately poor.

That is why we cannot look to governments. The government of Tanzania can only do so much, the governments of the US, Canada etc… focus exclusively on their residents. How well would it go over in BC if the Ministry of Health switched half their spending to provide medical care in Africa? But Canadians pride themselves on being among the elite in health care in the world. If financial resources are meant to be shared, why not health resources. Should the top 10% of health systems in the world be taxed at %50 to pay for health care inequity reduction world wide?

Probably, but you will get no western nation to agree to it.

And really isn’t the idea to get health care worldwide up to western standards, NOT to downgrade the better systems to lower levels.

And I suppose the same is true for financial inequity. The ideal is not to bring anyone down, but to bring up those who cannot provide for the necessities of life. And I really don’t care where those people are. There are those in Tanzania, Haiti, India etc that suffer from FAR more inequity than exists in the US.

And it is my impression it is THAT inequity to which the Pope speaks. I really don’t think he cares much what the nationality is, nor does he measure inequity by what flag is raised in their village square.

 

[ishii]

I am liberal catholic, and I agree with you cause the operative word for you and me is “Catholic” and our interpretations and takes on teaching may be influenced from a change versus “stay the course” debate within our own catholic community, but we agree…this pope is simply speaking church teaching at a global level. He is talking about these issues with respect of please understand the conversation on same sex marriage, abortion, unfettered capitalism within the context of ALL of the church teaching not from a secular context of this neighbourhood, interest group or this nation (or whatever nation).

Intersting time isn’t it Ishii…

Trickster

Trickster, based on the ignorance inherent in your post in which you conflate the Tea party and the Republican party as synonymous with “unfettered capitalism” - I find it hard to take your comments very seriously. I think you would add much more to the discussion if you spoke with more knowledge - even basic knowledge - when it comes to discussing American politics.

Ishii

 

[Mickey_Finn]

What about that Irish priest that I mentioned, was he in denial as well?

He’s got no 'horse in the race" so to speak, but rather is a European who has spent a large portion of his life in the Pope’s homeland.

If the US is ‘unfettered’ Capitalism with it’s EPA and OSHA and corporate reporting requirements, what is the term that best describes the level of restrictions on corporations in the Latin American countries?

Brendan, what does an Irish born priest who works in South America know of such things. Not offense intended toward the Good Father.

 

[dshix]

“Unfettered capitalism” does not appear in Evangelii Gaudium. It was “quoted” by the media but does not exist in the document. In fact, the pope did not say anything directly against capitalism at all.

This entire thread is moot.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

Trickster: the Tea Party rose to prominence in response to Republican overspending under George W Bush. It was/is primarily a movement that is opposed to excessive government spending and deficits that would saddle future generations with huge amounts of debt. Thus you seem to be speaking from ignorance when you conflate the “tea party” with “unfettered capitalism.” I will take your comments at face value and assume (for now) that you are genuinely interested in the truth and not interested in merely smearing the Tea Party.

So its: “ho hum, we were taught that the Soviet Union was evil and now we’re being taught that the US is evil too, like the Soviet Union.” Your statement is simplistic and inane - devoid of any real analysis of the reality of the history of the Soviet Union and its system (or the US, for that matter). Oh, and for the record, I don’t think Capitalism is perfect, nor do I think the US is perfect either.

Ishii

Ishii . The TP’ers rose to power because the Republicans panicked.
They sold their souls and now they can’t get it back.

 

[ishii]

Brendan, what does an Irish born priest who works in South America know of such things. Not offense intended toward the Good Father.

Seems to me he would know as much as your average union liberal guy from the Midwest.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

I think part of the popes arguement here (and I am not sure if I am correct) is that for the last 20-30 years, the middle class income in the US has remained "flat lined’ on those economic charts, whereas profits have increased for the top 1% of the richest of the rich by 30-40%. So perhaps a discussion on “unfettered capitalism” is a weaker discussion than a system that rewards the top 1% to the degree it does…and the idea of redistribution of wealth in a non-starter for a lot of Americans. In Canada, we are a bit more comfortable with government in our lives and with redistribution… but we are not open to abuse by government people to mismange the tax payer’s dollar either…now I am interested in learning whether the 1% in Canada have benefited like their American counterparts…just some thoughts…

Trickster

You’re right. Interesting to note Canada now provides a higher standard of living on average then the USA.

ATB

 

[po18guy]

As the OP, I am Canadian so I don’t have any investment in an American liberal or conservative argument, nor do I consider it my place to dabble in the internal American conversation. I am finding the discussions very informative and also indicative of how different our countries are…one poster referred to the DNA as a rejection of Crown and therefore big government…so that is a huge piece in understanding the psychology of American politics…and now that the pope has highlighted church teaching in regards to majority or monopolies (either socialism or extreme capitalism) American Catholics are in the process of reflecting and looking at the two world views (that I don’t think personally are necessarily conflicting…))…

Trickster

As well, I think that the mass media, through which most of North America receives information, has provided a grossly distorted view of both the Republican and Tea Parties. As much as the media paint them so, neither is a cabal of evil rich seeking to dominate and exploit the poor. In fact, many Democratic members of congress are richer than their Republican counterparts. The Tea Party is basically a populist movement that supports smaller government so that small business, which provides the vast majority of jobs in the US, may flourish.

The Democratic party is every bit as much the capitalists, only perhaps seeking greater government control of the system. Since that party overwhelmingly opposes Church teaching on numerous moral and social issues, you would think that Francis was addressing them.

 

[trickster]

Why did you not include Democrats in this question?
Are Democrats not in favor of Capitalism?

Good point, you are correct. Keep in mind I am Canadian so I don’t pretend to understand all the details. Of course, if you are American you believe in the free enterprise system. The only difference I observe between the Democrats and Republicans I find is how big government is, what constitutes the greater good…also I did spend a year in Texas in 2009-10 and learned about the sovereignty of States…so our politics and values are similar in many ways, different in others.

Democrats seem to believe that government has a role for legislating for the greater good and the Republicans seem to be about independent, self-responsibility, and so forth. so I naturally connected Republicans closer to the free market… and it was the conservatives (Republicans) who led to de-regulation …stuff like that…

Trickster

 

[Mickey_Finn]

Seems to me he would know as much as your average union liberal guy from the Midwest.

I don’t know any liberal guys from the Midwest. But when I see you attempting to hold on to such indefensible positions in a discussion like this. Well my heart goes out to you. Poor soul. I’ll through you a little bone here. Both the Republicans, and the Democrats cater to the money changers who demand that their greed mongering go unchecked. When you scream, and cry about regulations, that to the clear eye are not even adequate. Your dancing TO THE MONEY CHANGERS TUNE. It’s as simple as that. Trying to say you are not shows a poor understanding of your own behavior. Some would call it denial.

Good morning Ishii.

 

[Corki]

Good point, you are correct. Keep in mind I am Canadian so I don’t pretend to understand all the details. Of course, if you are American you believe in the free enterprise system. The only difference I observe between the Democrats and Republicans I find is how big government is, what constitutes the greater good…also I did spend a year in Texas in 2009-10 and learned about the sovereignty of States…so our politics and values are similar in many ways, different in others.

Democrats seem to believe that government has a role for legislating for the greater good and the Republicans seem to be about independent, self-responsibility, and so forth. so I naturally connected Republicans closer to the free market… and it was the conservatives (Republicans) who led to de-regulation …stuff like that…

Trickster

Republicans also believe that government has a role to play in legislating for the common good. The differences between Republicans and Democrats in that regard are mainly a matter or degree and the balance between what state (and local) government should do and what needs to be done federally. Democrats are just as vested in the free market system as Republicans.